- Per WP:LEAD, a lead should fairly all of summarize the most important sections of on article, without providing important information not covered in the article body. I know I may be stepping into dangerous territory here, but it seems like the first paragraph of the lead is a bit too concerned to list all the names the console has gone by, when that information does not seem particularly important given the coverage in the article's body. For instance, the fact that it was released as Tec Toy in Brazil and Super Gam*Boy and Super Aladdin Boy in South Korea is only mentioned in a brief paragraph at the end of the "launch" section, and the names "Virgin Mastertronic" and "Ozisoft" are not mentioned outside the lead at all. It seems to me that the various names should either be in their own section of the article, or else incorporated into the history section, whichever is most appropriate; but either way, the lead should not devote unnecessary detail on a point that the article body treats as minor.
- I believe it's there for identification purposes. There's a full paragraph on this in the Launch subsection. I think the reason names have been emphasized so much is that this article has had, for years, WP:WORLDVIEW issues, which were resolved during the rewrite of this article. More importantly, though, it's been a point of contention in the naming debate of "Sega Genesis" v. "Mega Drive" for years on this article. Also, it's not released as "Tec Toy", in Brazil, it was released in Brazil by a company called Tec Toy. I'm sure, though, that we can copy the extra details down, and if you are still sure they should be removed from the lead, we can do that. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 19:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Info about Virgin Mastertronic and Ozisoft have been added to the bodies, with sources. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 20:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm glad that the "worldview" issues have been resolved, and I understand that the unfortunate naming dispute has had an effect on the article. It was necessary to include information about Tec Toy and Ozisoft in the body if that info is in the lead, however, and I'm glad to see that that was done. Also, I see that I misread the nature of Ozisoft and Tec Toy due to an ambiguity in the lead's wording. (I'd read it as meaning "...released as the Mega Drive by Virgin Mastertronic in Europe, as Ozisoft in Australasia, and as Tec Toy in Brazil", when it's actually the "by" clause that's listed. Could you make this explicit like this? "...released as the Mega Drive by Virgin Mastertronic in Europe, by Ozisoft in Australasia, and by Tec Toy in Brazil." – Quadell (talk) 21:12, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The direct quote "console war" in the lead needs a citation. The term "cool", if quoted, should probably also have a citation. (I would just leave out the quote marks, personally; no one is being quoted, and you're really referring to the general aesthetic, which the linked article covers.)
- Some facts in the infobox are sourced, and others are not. It seems to me that facts only need to be sourced in the infobox if they are not mentioned (and sourced) in the article body, or if they are particularly contentious. For this reason, it's good that Sonic 1's sales figure (15 million) is sourced in the infobox. But I don't think the fact that 40 million units were sold, or that Sega discontinued sale in 1997, need infobox citations.
- In my opinion, "the go ahead" is insufficiently encyclopedic in tone.
- It's hard to source that something is not known, and speculation needs particularly careful sourcing. I can't read source 19 ("Retroinspection: Mega Drive"), but does it fully support the claim that "The reason for this change is not known, but it may have been due to a trademark dispute"?
- Yes, the source itself is also speculative and cannot pin it down. Here, I'll help by contributing a quote from Retro Gamer:
Arriving after the American launch, (Sega of America CEO Michael) Katz wasn't aware of the details surrounding the name change from Mega Drive to Genesis. Consensus states it was due to a trademark dispute. The facts are blurred, but point possibly to a US manufacturer of storage devices called Mega Drive Systems, Inc.
- That is exactly what I'd hoped; the source fully supports both parts of the statement, and without close paraphrasing issues. Excellent. Thanks for checking for me. – Quadell (talk) 21:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Is "Sega Mega Anser" a typo, or is that really what it was called? And also... an online banking system? Is that really something that was available for the Mega Drive in 1988? I do wish I could see the source. Can you verify these details for me? (Also, "including" is the wrong word to use, since that doesn't sound like either a game or a peripheral to me.)
- That's really what it's called—it's a product that was released only in Japan for use with Nagoya Bank, which is likely the reason it seems typoed in English. The source even notes, "Mega Anser (sic)", that that really was how it was spelled. It was a full set with a cartridge, keypad, printer, and modem. I have the issue of Retro Gamer this is noted in and can verify this is all correct. And yes, it really was an early launch product... I'm not so sure it's 1988, the source isn't exactly specific on exactly when it was launched, but notes it in the article just after the paragraph on the Genesis' progress in Japan in its first year. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 19:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, thanks for checking. – Quadell (talk) 21:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I made a somewhat bold copy-edit, especially to the "launch" section, here, to improve the prose and reduce redundancy. If you disagree with any of these edits, feel free to revert and discuss.
- The article says "A downturn in the arcade business starting in 1982 seriously hurt the company", but the source only supports the second half of the sentence (that Bally purchased Sega in 1983). I'm not familiar with a 1982 downturn. The North American video game crash of 1983 article indicates that this period was a high point for video games. The Sega article states "In 1982, Sega's revenues would eclipse $214 million... The following year, an overabundance of arcade games led to the video game crash [of 1983], causing Sega's revenues to drop to $136 million." So whence comes the claim of an 1982 downturn?
- @Indrian: Can you give me a hand here? Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 19:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I can take care of this with appropriate sourcing. As a note of explanation here, there were actually two different market crashes, one in coin-op and one in consumer, two markets that have different boom and bust cycles. By the middle of 1982, sales of new arcade game cabinets came to a virtual halt due to over saturation. This was followed by the end of the year by a decline in coin drop at the arcades. The arcade industry bottomed out in 1984 and then began to grow again. The home video game market suffered a market crash in 1983 as the price of new games plummeted due to over saturation to the point that publishers could no longer recoup their investment on game production. This is the crash covered in the article you linked to above. The home market bottomed out in 1985 and then began to grow again. Indrian (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I have added a link to a New York Times article that discusses the decline of the arcade market in 1982. Indrian (talk) 20:46, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Good source. I am satisfied that the arcade business had a downturn "starting in 1982", as the article says, even if early- and mid-1982 were good times for the business. – Quadell (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Related: Bally purchased Sega after the release of the SG-1000, but the article says the purchase was before the release.
- Question: Why is the "see also" hatnote for History of video games at the "Aggressive marketing" section, rather than the "History" supersection? – Quadell (talk) 16:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This would be because the "Aggressive marketing" section was originally titled "Console wars", after the fact that there was a Console wars article that talked about video game competition. A month or two ago, this article was redirected via a consensus decision at WT:VG to History of video games. We decided we needed a new name for the section since it emphasized Sega's aggressive marketing tactics for the Genesis, and the term "console wars" is in itself a little OR and POVish unless the context of it being a quote in video game journalism is noted. That being said, I can see where a move of that header would be reasonable now. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 17:06, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That makes sense. I think a lot of what I'm doing is smoothing over the scars of a past war. – Quadell (talk) 17:14, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The article sometimes uses the serial comma (e.g. "fans, collectors, video game music fans, and emulation enthusiasts") but sometimes does not (e.g. "Wii Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade, PlayStation Network and Steam"). Either is fine, but the article should be consistent.
- The infobox seems to indicate that the console has been discontinued worldwide. (Am I reading that correctly?) But the text says "In Brazil the Mega Drive never ceased production".
- That would be correct, that's how you're reading it. Sega discontinued the Genesis worldwide in that date, and Majesco discontinued their clone, but Tectoy continues to produce Mega Drve-based products in Brazil. Perhaps the best fix to this might be to note below the worldwide and US Majesco dates that it is ongoing in Brazil, with Tectoy noted in parentheses. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 19:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Your change isn't showing up, probably because the BR parameter isn't recognized in the ((vgrelease)) template. Any way you want to resolve it will be fine, so long as the infobox doesn't lead the reader to think all versions have been discontinued worldwide. – Quadell (talk) 21:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Good catch; ((vgrelease)) doesn't have a parameter for Brazil. In response, I've submitted an edit request to have such a field added, with BR as the region code. I can see how this might be a useful field in the future; in my research with Sega, I've found quite a few unique Brazil releases. After the edit request is fulfilled, this should show up. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 21:29, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this has been resolved by SexyKick. Indrian (talk) 23:09, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The direct quote in "Bill Clinton's 'Get it done' attitude" needs an unambiguous source. In fact, in my opinion, it would be better for the source's for Sonic's appearance to go before the semicolon, and the (presumably) one on his attitude should be at the end of the sentence.
- I plugged in an unambiguous source (thank you again Retro Gamer) that cites both facts, and I dropped in the quote itself into the ref so it's there and clearly unambiguous. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 17:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So long as it's a quote, it would be better to use the actual quote of "can do", rather than "get it done". – Quadell (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm a bit confused by some of the market share stats in the "Aggressive marketing" section. The article says "Even with the Genesis often outselling the Super NES at a ratio of 2:1, neither console could maintain a definitive lead in market share for several years." Two-to-one sounds like like a definitive lead in market share to me. Do you mean that neither could maintain a sustained lead for years at a time? If so, that would be a clearer wording.
- Similar to the above, in my opinion, the final sentence of the "Sonic the Hedgehog" section would go better in the "Aggressive marketing" section instead. (That section already attributed some of the Genesis' success to Sonic, and gave a less detailed look at the market share swing of the time period.)
- This sentence could really use to broken up: "To get around licensing, Accolade chose to seek an alternative way to bring their games to the Genesis by purchasing one in order to decompile the executable code of three Genesis games and use it to program their new Genesis cartridges in a way that would allow them to disable the security lockouts on the Genesis that prevented unlicensed games from being able to be played."
- The article flatly calls Accolade's reverse engineering methods "piracy". I don't think that's a fair NPOV term for it.
- This is an ambiguity issue: the "piracy" referred to in this sentence is the piracy from foreign countries making bootleg copies that blanked out the trademark before the existence of the TMSS,
referenced in the above paragraph. I've inserted a prepositional phrase to clarify this. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 18:26, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, oops... I guess it wasn't referenced. I wrote this section based on Sega v. Accolade, another FA that I worked extensively on. That article makes mention of piracy issues in Southeast Asia, which the court case itself referenced as a reason for Sega's addition of the TMSS. I hadn't realized that wasn't mentioned in this article, so I've just referenced "piracy from foreign countries". Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 18:35, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The article says "Ratings ranged from the family friendly GA rating to the adults-only ratings of MA-13, and MA-17." I'm not sure MA-13 can be described as an adults-only rating. I would just say "to the adults-only rating of MA-17", (though then you might want to introduce the MA-13 rating somehow so that the next sentence makes sense). Related, I'm not sure "relatively low MA-13 rating" conveys the fact that it's non-restrictive.
- The direct quote "unwieldy and inaccurate" needs a clear source.
- In my opinion, the "Trademark Security System and Sega v. Accolade" section goes into a bit more detail than necessary. It's an important part of the history of the Genesis, and I wouldn't cut it in half or anything... but some of the specifics (the date of the written opinion vs. the ruling, the various injunctions, terms of the settlement, etc.) could be trimmed, and I think it would improve the flow of the article as a whole.
- I've done a little trimming here, but I'll leave it up to you as to whether or not it needs a little more. On a side note, it's tasks like this that make me very much like the VisualEditor, where it's more convenient for proofreading and copyediting prose. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 01:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's great now. (I may have to try VisualEditor after all.) – Quadell (talk) 14:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: Why is the Power Base Converter, which allows the Genesis to play older Master System games, a "peripheral" described in the "Peripherals" section... while the Sega CD, which allows the Genesis to play newer games, an "add-on" listed in the "Add-ons" section?
- Video game media tends to refer to these two as "add-ons" specifically, but leaves out the Power Base Converter, which is essentially a pass-through for Master System cartridges (the Genesis itself is already backwards compatible in its hardware; the Power Base Converter is just a slot adapter for the differently shaped cartridges to allow it to use such functionality.) The Sega CD and Sega 32X, however, add functionalities such as faster processor chips and more storage capability, and in addition are quite a bit more notable, seeing as how each warrants their own article (and coincidentally both Sega CD and Sega 32X are GA-class articles.
- Now, here's where I play devil's advocate - "Peripheral" and "add-on" are essentially the same thing. The terminology is out of video game media, but they're synonyms. If recommended, I would not have a problem with moving the Sega CD and 32X sections into the Peripherals area, though I'd recommend they keep their subsections. However, it's my personal thought they're quite distinctly different from "peripherals" for the system. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 01:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If the sources are fairly consistent in referring to one as a peripheral and the others as add-ons, that's fine. – Quadell (talk) 14:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "The same was true of the Pioneer LaserActive, which was also an add-on..." I don't think the LaserActive was an add-on. The sentence should be reworded for clarity and accuracy.
- SexyKick got this one. It's kind of humorous, because it's actually the opposite way around. The LaserActive requires an add-on known as the Mega-LD pack to play Genesis and Sega CD games. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 01:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It sounds like the "Later new releases" section is saying that the versions of FIFA 2008, Need for Speed Pro Street, The Sims 2, and Sim City for the Mega Drive Guitar Idol were originally made as cellphone games. If that's true, then no change is needed. But if you meant that the MDGI included those named games, plus others derived from celphone games, then it should be reworded.
- I checked the source with Google Translate (it's in Portuguese, since it's from Tectoy's site). Nothing in the source actually says these games came from cellphone games, so I've removed this statement. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 01:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A "See also" section should not include links which are already linked in the article body. All of these are, so the entire section is not needed. (The portal links would have to go in a different section.)
- Images: The non-free images are all used appropriately, with all required information present. (Although File:Megadrive logo.png and File:GenesisLogo.png could be cleaned up a bit, with rationale templates used a little better.) Nearly all the free images are legitimate, complete, and appropriate. (Evan-Amos is the man, by the way.) But I'm very concerned about File:Xeye.JPG; it looks like the original uploader is saying he got the image off eBay, though the link is now dead. Could it be replaced with a different third-party-model image? Also, this is minor stuff, but a description is needed for File:Console-wondermega.jpg, and it would be better to include an English description and categories to File:Teradrive-2007-05-19-front.jpg.
- Updated the templates for the two logos, and added a description for the Wondermega. Also, I replaced the X'Eye image with one for the Amstrad Mega PC, which is claimed to be in the public domain and the uploader says he took the image himself. Also, yes, Evan-Amos is the man, definitely. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 01:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Be very careful about tenses in this article. Any action in the past should use the past tense (e.g. "Sega advertised to a more adult audience" or "The Genesis library was initially modest"), but for descriptions of things that still exist, the present tense should be used. This article does that correctly in some places (e.g. "The console also includes a Zilog Z80 sub-processor"), but I've had to change other parts to use the present tense (e.g. "the Sega Genesis also supports two add-ons"), and there are many other places where the present tense should be used instead of the past (e.g. "a 32-bit peripheral which utilized ROM cartridges", "but was incompatible with some games", "It also provided battery-backed storage RAM", "the Sega Mega Mouse featured three buttons", etc.) Someone will need to make sure the present tense is used when it's appropriate throughout the article. Be careful though; don't change every past tense phrasing into the present tense. For instance, consider "Virtua Racing, the only game released with this chip, ran at a significantly higher and more stable frame rate than similar games on the SNES." It still does run at a higher and more stable frame rate, but in the context of the paragraph, the important point was that it ran better back then. Or consider "this add-on unit also upgraded the graphics and sound capabilities". The add-on still exists, but it "upgraded" the capabilities at the time. It will take a lot of care, but it's important to get the tenses right throughout the article.
- Case study: Consider this sentence. "This version removed the headphone jack in the front, changed the A/V-Out connector to a smaller version that supports stereo sound, and provided a simpler, less expensive mainboard that required less power." It's true that it only removed and changed at the time of its release, but it still provides a mainboard that requires less. Because it's bad style to mix tenses in a list, I reworded the entire sentence with this edit. I'm afraid that sort of change will be necessary in many places. – Quadell (talk) 19:18, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see that SexyKick's been working on this one. I'll have to spend some time at it too, but it's a very busy season for me at work, and I'm finding free time quite scarce.
- Let me know when you think this is done, and I'll check it over. – Quadell (talk) 14:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I took some time and worked through this tonight. I was surprised to find there was so much of this in "Game library" and "Variations", but some in other areas, too. I went through with a fine-toothed comb and I think this is all resolved. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 03:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I found a couple you missed, but it's hard to believe there are many more lurking in there. Indrian (talk) 04:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Great. After looking over it again, I believe this issue to be resolved. – Quadell (talk) 14:05, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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