The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:31, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of officials purged and executed by Kim Jong-un[edit]

List of officials purged and executed by Kim Jong-un (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

As discussed in talk page, the majority of those mentioned here are rumors and unable to be confirmed, particularly with the nature of all information regarding North Korea. Examples include Kim Chol, Jang Song-thaek (whose execution was confirmed, but for which sources dispute whether it could be considered a purge), Jon Yong-jin for whom sources state "allegedly executed," Ri Yong-ho (diplomat) was also "likely executed," etc etc. As well, many of these references link back to anonymous sources from Chojoongdong, sources which have been known to get things wrong in the past and I don't think its helpful to have an article on "List of officials allegedly purged and executed by Kim Jong-un." Pinging @KTo288, Jack Upland, and Nathan868: who have participated before. Freedom4U (talk) 10:15, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Korea. Freedom4U (talk) 10:15, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: a collection of rumours and speculation that amounts to an unreliable list.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:30, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per WP:NLIST, which notes that one accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. And, the topic of people executed on the order of Kim Jong-un has been discussed as a set by multiple independent reliable sources. These include USA Today, Radio Free Asia, CNN, and this analysis of purges of high-ranking officials in North Korea. If there are issues with content, WP:DEL-CONTENT notes that If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page, and I think the answer here is to simply improve the page's quality rather than deleting it. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:46, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - As long as every execution can be sourced, I support it. Seems fairly important.KatoKungLee (talk) 03:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime and Politics. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - per Jack Upland, WP:GNG does not matter when the verifiability of pretty much all of the list comes into question, a lot of the sourcing comes from clearly biased/agendaic sources with dubious reliability, with much of the info seeming to be WP:BOLLOCKS. Arkansore (talk) 11:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:RSP, USA Today, CNN, and RFA are all WP:GREL... — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:23, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Sourcing is sufficient to meet WP:GNG. Perfectly acceptable list. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Then let's go through the people listed one by one:

  • Kim Chol is cited to [1]. The source states A high-ranking army official in North Korea was reportedly executed by a firing squad earlier this year for drinking alcohol during the 100-day mourning period following the death of North Korean leader Kim Jong-il, according to South Korean media. and The Telegraph UK, however, cited an unnamed South Korean media source as saying that Kim Chol was "forced to stand on a spot that had been zeroed in for a mortar round and 'obliterated.'" North Korea's new leader Kim Jong-un allegedly ordered to leave "no trace of him behind, down to his hair." and Some media outlets have questioned the report of Kim Chol's death. Commenting on the case, an analyst told Foreign Policy that there have been earlier reports of officers who were rumored to have been killed resurfacing later. The article reflects this information, using the words 'allegedly' and 'unconfirmed if dead'.
  • Ri Yong-hol and Ri Kwang-won are cited to [2] which states Those that have fallen from favour include Ri Yong-ho, the head of the army and Ri Kwang-gon, the governor of the North Korean central bank. While the Ri Kwang-won doesn't have his own article, Ri Yong-hol does, in which the sources all converge on this source [3] which states The South Korean government is investigating unconfirmed intelligence reports that a gun battle, leaving between 20 and 30 soldiers dead, broke out when the North Korean regime removed army chief Ri Yong-ho from office.
  • Jang Song-thaek is verifiable. No issues found.
  • Ri Ryong-ha and Jang Su-gil are cited to [4] which states The Yomiuri cited a source that claimed Ri Ryong-ha, the first deputy director of the administrative department of North Korea’s ruling Workers’ Party, and Jang Su-gil, a deputy director of the department, were executed because they did not immediately follow an order by Kim to hand over their control of a profitable business to the military.
  • Jon Yong-jin is cited to [5] which states Among those allegedly executed were Jon Yong-jin, Jang's brother-in-law and the country's ambassador to Cuba, and Jang Yong-chol, Jang's nephew and ambassador to Malaysia, the anonymous sources said.
  • O Sang-hon is cited to [6] which states O Sang-hon, a deputy minister at the Ministry of Public Security was "executed by flame-thrower," a source told South Korea's Chosun Ilbo newspaper. and [7] which states O Sang-hon, a deputy minister at the Ministry of Public Security, was "executed by flamethrower," the source said.
  • Pak Chun-hong is cited to a dead url, however his page cites [8] which states Citing a “number of inside sources,” the report carried by Yomiuri Shimbun claimed that the list of 16 of Jang’s closest associates included high-ranking cadres Ri Ryong Ha and Jang Su Gil, who are said to have been executed in November, and Party Central Committee officials Pak Chun Hong and Ryang Chong Song...The report has not been independently verified.
  • Choe Yong-gon is cited to [9] which states South Korea's government says it is monitoring reports that North Korea's vice-premier Choe Yong-gon was killed in May on the orders of Kim Jong-un. Mr Choe was executed after he "expressed discomfort against the young leader's forestation policy", South Korea's Yonhap news agency reports. The link to the Yonhap report is dead, but there is this source in his article [10] which states Yet the purge and execution of an official like Choe doesn’t strain credulity, either, even if it deserves to be filed under “unconfirmed” for now.
  • Hwang Min and Ri Yong-jin are cited to [11] which states The conservative daily, the JoongAng Ilbo, reported on Tuesday that Hwang Min, a former agriculture minister, and Ri Yong-jin, a senior official at the education ministry, were executed by anti-aircraft gun at a military academy in Pyongyang earlier this month. Hwang was reportedly killed for making policy proposals that were seen as a direct threat to Kim’s leadership. However, this is contradicted by this report [12] in The Diplomat which states In keeping with the usual pattern of unverifiable reports about the regime from South Korean media and intelligence services, the newspaper cited a single anonymous source for its claim...On Thursday, the JoongAng Ilbo reported that the ministry’s statement, pegging Kim as the only victim of the latest execution, had been made as a correction of its earlier reporting, which was erroneous...The JoongAng report actually misidentifies Hwang Min as being replaced in June at the Supreme People’s Assembly as agriculture minister.
  • Ri Yong-ho is cited to [13] which states Former North Korean Foreign Minister Ri Yong-ho appears to have been executed last year, a Japanese newspaper reported Wednesday. Ri seems to have been executed around between the summer and fall of last year, the Yomiuri Shimbun reported, citing unnamed multiple sources. This information is uncertainty is reflected in his article.

  Out of every single person listed, Jang Song-thaek remains the only person who can be verified to have been purged/executed. I also cannot stress the importance of what unverified means here. Information about North Korea is extremely limited and reports that are cited to The Chosun Ilbo or the JoongAng Ilbo based off of anonymous sources are highly possible to be wrong. Examples include Kim Hyok-chol, Mun Kyong-jin, Hyon Song-wol, Kim Yong-chol (not mentioned in his article, but the Chosun Ilbo reported that he was 'sentenced to hard labor'), Kim Kyong-hui, and Ri Yong-gil (where the false rumor was spread by the South Korean government). Media coverage of North Korea includes a number of other examples of false North Korea reporting from Korean and foreign-language sources. :3 F4U (they/it) 17:16, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Pinging @Necrothesp and @Redtail Vineyard. In addition, it's true that USA Today, Radio Free Asia, and CNN are considered generally reliable. However they are not considered generally reliable on topics concerning North Korea. See this 2022 RfC on Daily NK for previous consensus on this. Hell, the USA Today article that you linked reports that Kim Kyong-hui was executed, even though that was confirmed to be false. :3 F4U (they/it) 17:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  With respect to they are not considered generally reliable on topics concerning North Korea: they are considered to be WP:GREL WP:NEWSORGs. I don't see why North Korea is special here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:04, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Red-tailed hawk Oh shit sorry just realized I pinged the wrong person before North Korea is special here because the only information we're able to get about the country is very very limited, meaning that even major news sources have to work with very limited, often incorrect sources. If you were to read what it states at WP:GREL, you would find the following statement: There is a consensus that this source, as well as all other sources reporting on North Korea, is generally unreliable. However, due to a paucity of readily accessible information on North Korea, as well as a perception that Daily NK is not more unreliable than other sources on the topic, it can be used as a source, albeit with great caution. :3 F4U (they/it) 10:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Gonna add on to my comment to state, while looking through the list just now, I've found that Hwang Min and Ri Yong-jin were not executed and the JoongAng Daily retracted their report,^[1] but that wasn't before Reuters [14], USA Today [15], The Independent [16], etc. etc. which are all normally generally reliable sources. I've removed those immediately from the list as they were confirmed to not have happened. :3 F4U (they/it) 11:04, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per everything F4U said. Onegreatjoke (talk) 23:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per F4U. Properly speaking, this page is a "List of officials allegedly purged and executed by Kim Jong-un". Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 15:03, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete BLP concerns. WP:BLPCRIME Lightburst (talk) 19:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.