The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete while a majority of editors indicated that the article should be kept, there was no compelling arguments/references provided to substantiate the claims of notability. I'll be willing to restore the article conditional on notability being established by secondary sources that substantiate the claim of "champion" and/or "olympic coach". Gnangarra 13:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ian King (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Non-notable athlete. No references show the person is notable enough to merit inclusion. Delete Ragib 17:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep King is well known in strength training and circles (trains numerous Olympic athletes) and has numerous interviews online. See Google search results.[1]. He also operates King Sports International [2]. Also as per WP:BIO under Special Cases, King qualifies as a creative professional - as he is an author of both books [3] and articles in fitness magazines [4]. The article is in desperate need of expansion - not deletion. Yankees76 17:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Google is only returning promotion or self-promotion sites, and clearly a lot of advertisement. Does the status of an highly advertised athlete on the web meets the criterion for notability? None of the big claims about him (apart from the fact that he has a fair web presence by virtue of the advertisement and promotionals) could be verified as fact so far. I have posted a lot of requests to get help expansion of the article. But, so far nothing came up, and there is no reason to believe that something will come up. Delete, then? Aditya Kabir 04:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep As per Yankees76. If the Google is only returning self-promotion site then do we need to use Google as primary search engine? It's still providing information about Ian King.So I assume it can be expanded and gone in stubby --NAHID 10:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC) The article still conveys some valuable information. The links provided by Yankees76 meets the criteria to keep the article--NAHID 18:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, Google gives a very rough idea about notability. If someone is certainly notable, then 3rd party sources should be available. Since there isn't probably any systemic bias, Google should at least provide 3rd party sources besides self promotional ones. By the way, please do not vote multiple times. Thanks. --Ragib 21:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. I have asked quite a few participants on the bodybuilding projects to substantiate the claims on article, as well as the project talk page. All I got back was assurance that something will come up. Nothing did. There is no reason to believe that anything but more promotional websites will be all that supports the subject. Not verifiable, hardly notable, and remains very much fancruft. I tried saving it, and failed. No one is interested in expanding or substantiating the article. Aditya Kabir 15:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Again multiple vote for deletion in above section NAHID 22:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, dear. A comment to refute someone else's potisiton and declaring a delete position are not the same. And, besides, this is not a voting box. Aditya Kabir 04:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Umm, I should've made another comment.Your comment supported for deletion. Don't forget that.May be you also forget, this is not a voting box--NAHID 17:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I researched this and all the above links are self promotional even his suppose to be web site has nothing to do with him per say. Not noted as an above average trainer as If he qualifies then I do as well so were will it end...Delete not supported.--Cleanupman 15:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Longhair\^talk 22:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep A very quick Google search shows the subject is the author of 3 books in his field and is respected in the field of bodybuilding. He may not be an 'important' athlete by some standards, but he is notable by Wiki standards. I am adding some links. Kind regards, --Greatwalk 01:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • How so? The Wiki standard tells us that the notability criterion shared by many is - A topic is notable if it has been the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works that are reliable and independent of the subject (WP:NN). And, that independent sources may not include Self-promotion, autobiography, and product placement are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. The published works should be someone else writing about the subject (amazon.com as vendor fairly misses to be an independent source). Besides, the specific notability guideline for biographies tells us that for a general bio the subject should have a credible independent biography, for athletes the subject may be competitors who have played in a fully professional league or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport, or competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports (this was claimed of the subject by never verified), and for writers/journalists the subject may be regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors (WP:BIO). Cheers. Aditya Kabir 03:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aditya Kabir, I realise you have indicated the page needs to be deleted, but please don't downgrade the article to a single line again. This author's book is independently published and the author information given there is sufficient to cite as reference material for the minimal claims that had been made about this person by the editor who wrote the article. Kind regards, --Greatwalk 05:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about hiding unnecessary information (I didn't delete them, though), but how does the information on where he lives and if he is married adds to his notability? And while you take a postion for keep, please, refrain from removing tags that ask for citation (also, please, refrain from putting back the same weblink twice). Remember, most books are independently published, but are not independently cited. A citation from the vendor of the book makes neither the book nor the author notable. Aditya Kabir 14:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have left a comment on your grave allegation of downgrading an article during deletion discussion on Talk:Ian King. I DID NOT downgrade it, or else I wouldn't have linked it to other articles or asked others to upgrade it. Aditya Kabir 18:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep As per Yankees76 and Greatwalk. Author of books, trainer of Olympic athletes, notable. John Vandenberg 10:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trainer of Olympic athletes? Which athletes? Aditya Kabir 14:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dont know. [5] says he did. Lets leave the article alone so the contributors can figure that out. John Vandenberg 21:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Just make sure that a vendor of the subject's book (i.e. amazon.com) doesn't become the sole source of his training of world class athletes and so on. And, I apologize for downgrading the article. I really hope someone figures something about the subject, apart from the books he has written. Aditya Kabir 18:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, WjBscribe 18:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep It is not an acceptable reason for deletion that, based on one's personal understandiung of the subject, one doesn't think it notable. The qy is whether other people do and say so in RSs.DGG 04:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, since I was the only user debating for a delete, I think it was directed against me and my understanding. I am hurt. For one - I never claimed to know anything about the subject. But, that doesn't mean that I don't understand wikipedia notability standards, and I don't understand promotional sites. Unfortunately, I work in an advertising agency (affiliated with JWT) and there is a possibility that while you may know everything about the subject, I may be more knowledgeable about promotional work (though not necessarily so). As long the wikipedia standards of establishing notability is followed I have no problems with the subject. This is not a personal vendetta against a person unknown to me (apart from the fact that he is well advertised). I haver already quoted all the guidelines that stand against the article, and none of the people who know much better than I do have been able to provide anything that meets those criterion (apart from more promotional stuff, including those of a vendor of the book written by the subject). May be I haven't noticed that wikipedia is a democracy now, and AfDs have turned into voting boxes. Sorry, again for all the trouble. Keep whatever the people wants. Aditya Kabir 18:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Current quality of article has nothing to do with notability of subject. Seems to be well known ...maelgwntalk 07:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I reckon he's notable - he shot my brother twice in the legs and nearly strangled him in 2001. He deserved it though, was trying to kidnap him for ransom. But Mr King was man enough to drive him to hospital and didn't notify police - they decided to call it even.WunNation 09:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)strike comment by indef blocked user Gnangarra 13:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, as per DDG above. Lankiveil 09:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • Changed to keep as per WunNation above. My, what amazing notability. Aditya Kabir 18:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep DXRAW 03:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a vote, so you need to explain your reasons if you want this opinion to count. --Ragib 03:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.