- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. There were no arguments for deletion aside from the nom. Any other non-deletion action can be discussed on the talk page and outside this AFD. MuZemike 01:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hispanic Day (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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"Hispanic Day" is not an independent holiday in Spain or anywhere else. Almost all google hits are for unconnected celebrations in places where Hispanics are a minority, such as the US and Canada. Otherwise "Hispanic Day" is an infrequently-used translation for "Día de la Hispanidad", which is another name for "Día de la Raza", the holiday commemorating Columbus' arrival in the Americas on October 12 and known in the US as Columbus Day. There's nothing here that can't be discussed better at Columbus day, where all the Columbus celebrations are discussed, and no citations have been added after nearly two years. Cúchullain t/c 15:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I strongly disagree with either the deletion or merging of the content. While Columbus Day is more about Día de la Raza as celebrated in The Americas, the Spanish National Day is, well, the domestic National Day as celebrated in Spain, which is obviously a much more specific celebration and, like any other National Day, deserves its space. Even though they are hold on the same day and celebrate the same fact (can't see the forest for the trees?), Columbus Day and the National Day of Spain are clearly separate concepts and celebrations not overlapping. That is why merging would be very incorrect, let alone deletion.
- This said, I see no problem in renaming the article if someone has a better name. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 21:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to see some evidence of this, as none has been presented over the last two years. A Google Books search for "Hispanic Day"-wikipedia reveals that the term "Hispanic Day" is not tied to Spain. A search for "Dia de la Hispanidad" shows that this Spanish phrase is just another name for Dia de la Raza/Columbus Day, and is not only used in Spain. "National Holiday"+Spain is uninstructive. "Fiesta Nacional"+Spain turns up more hits for bullfighting than for anything. "National Day"+Spain gives some more relevant results, but nothing really shows that the holiday needs its own separate page. This book shows that Spain's "National Day" was the international celebration known as el Día de la Hispanidad until the name was changed in 1987; this book (p. 253) indicates that the "national day" is not widely celebrated in Spain and has virtually nothing to distinguish it from the international Columbus celebrations held on the same day and for the same purpose.--Cúchullain t/c 13:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for sources, here is the Spanish Minister of Labour official holiday list (only the three latest years shown)
[1]
Translation from the 'Características' tag (regional holidays aside) in any case, Christmas Day, New Year's Day, May 1st (Labour Day) and October 12 as Spain's National Holiday (Fiesta Nacional de España) will be observed as national holidays
So, in regard to that line you pull up from somewhere stating that "is not widely celebrated in Spain", I would like you to find an open office in Spain on October 12th. Dont bother: you'd find none, because it's a serious holiday (unlike in the Americas).
Here is the Ministry of Defence microsite dedicated to the upcoming National Holiday 2009
[2]
You may notice that it is in Spanish and all the Spanish regional languages, but not in English...does that talk to you? if it was celebrated in Spain as a sort of international latino day (as it happens in the Americas), it would have the correspondent English translation, right? But the thing is that this is celebrated in Spain as a domestic holiday and, as it happens, in Spain they dont count English as a national language.
Arent these still not quoted enough nor specific enough to Spain for you to accept that October 12th is not exactly the same in the Americas than in Spain?
As a side note, it is just so self-evident that it is Spain's National Day and that, as such, it has specific Spain's only value (see the interwikis in this regard, too) that I still really can't see the point in your fixation to merge this article. You are a deletionist? Fine (I am partial to that line myself) but I think you are barking at the wrong tree here MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 16:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it is the article's name is what bothers the most our nominator. In this regard, I repeat that I see no problem in renaming the article, perhaps to Spain's National Holiday (to match the official name per the Minister of Labour "Fiesta Nacional de España") or something alike.
Then it would be made clear in the article that Spain's National Day is held to celebrate what elsewhere in the Americas is Columbus Day. The former is the Spanish National Day Holiday, while the latter is basically a folkloric holiday or, in some country, also an observed holiday, but without any National Day character whatsoever. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 16:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The main problem here is absence of any reliable, published sources, which are required to verify the information. You will have to provide some if you want to support your point of view. I have provided some sources that demonstrate the opposite: namely, they show that Spain's "National Day" is not enthusiastically celebrated and is just a fairly recent officialization of the international holiday. Meaning, that though this has been "National Day" since 1987, people do not widely engage in any substantial nationalist activity or patriotic celebrations, with the exception of the military parade in Madrid. I have added a section on Spain to Columbus Day#Spain, which includes material referenced to the sources I found above. I tried to give a clear summary of the history of the day in Spain. The problem with having a separate article for Spain's "Fiesta Nacional" is that Spain has had several "national days" in the course of its history, depending on who was in power at the time.--Cúchullain t/c 19:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- From the very first day you started this I still dont get what do you want to verify. Is it the fact that on Oct. 12 Spain celebrates its National Day? Is it that there is aerobatics, a parade in front of the King and the Prime Minister, authorities, ambassadors and else? Is it that it is the equivalent of a federal holiday (may I use US terms, which you seem to know better). Is that what you want to verify?
- If so, then I would like to verify why your thing to delete this article on the face of three other editors (myself included) not agreeing.
- On the other side, what you see as a problem to create an article for "Fiesta Nacional" or whatever name we may find, I regard it as a reason to create this article.
- If we have such an article, we could summarize there which had been the various national days in Spain over time and which is the national day now. On the face of comments so far other than nominator's being against deletion, if no one else opposes, I will proceed to create this article. MOUNTOLIVE fedeli alla linea 23:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It appears you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way Wikipedia works. All challenged information needs to be reliably sourced so that it can be verified; whether you believe it's "true" doesn't matter at all. None of this material is cited to reliable sources, despite repeated requests for two years. The reliable sources found so far show, among other evidence, shows that (1) there is no independent holiday called "Hispanic Day" in Spain or elsewhere, that (2) the term "Hispanic Day" is not particularly connected to Spain, or even to October 12, and that (3) the declaration of Spain's Fiesta Nacional as October 12 was just the government's effort to turn the long-established international Columbus Day into a national holiday; it did not result in the creation of something new (or very popular). There is currently a section at Columbus Day#Spain that includes information on Spain's October 12 Fiesta Nacional, and it is all sourced to reliable publications. If you want to create an article on the history of Spain's ever-changing "National Day", more power to you, but please follow policy and cite your sources.--Cúchullain t/c 16:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't delete, per se - I don't think the information in this article should be destroyed. It's fine with me to have it sit around unreferenced (as are many, many pieces of information in the encyclopedia) until someone makes a good-faith effort to find sources confirming (or not) the claims made. The assistance of a Spanish-speaking editor would be helpful. If not merged with Columbus Day (I can see arguments for and against; each location seems to give its own meaning to the same holiday by different names), then the name should be the English translation of whatever the most common Spanish name for the holiday as celebrated in Spain. -- Beland (talk) 00:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge with "Día de la Raza", as noted in nom. Bearian (talk) 00:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.