The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. or really, Keep/Merge as there is emerging consensus that this could be included within Sarasota's district or Booker herself especially with the added information from Cunard et al. What there isn't is consensus to delete any of this content, and where it should live can be handled editorially. Star Mississippi 03:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC) Amending for clarity, emphasis on the could. I leave further discussion on whether it happens and where to interested editors. Star Mississippi 15:11, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Emma E. Booker Elementary School

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Emma E. Booker Elementary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Should be merged into Sarasota, Florida as we do for other schools. It doesn't appear that the school is independently notable beyond the events of 9/11. RockstoneSend me a message! 02:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Emma E. Booker Elementary School is a non-profit educational institution which is required to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. There is no requirement for the references to be non-local or non-WP:MILL but it has received plenty of coverage that is non-WP:MILL. Emma E. Booker Elementary School has received significant coverage in the regional newspaper The Tampa Tribune about its 11-month curriculum. In addition to the George W. Bush coverage, the school has received significant coverage about the plans for it to become "the district's first year-round school", students doing state testing, and events it puts on. That this school has received sustained significant coverage over several decades strongly establishes it is notable.

    Cunard (talk) 11:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ignore the non-local coverage part of what I said, there still isn't significant, in-depth coverage in multiple sources. One reason as I'm sure you know is that multiple stories from a single outlet only counts as one reference. So the fact that The Tampa Tribune did 15 news stories about it doesn't really matter, since it's only a single reference. Outside of that though from what I can tell the stories are not significant coverage anyway. Like the first one is about how they might have the county's first 11-month curriculum, but then maybe not because of state budget cuts. Beyond just being purely based on speculation most of it is about the state budget issues. Not the school. To pick one more, there's "Teacher discipline concerns leaders". Which is literally just about an assistant superintendent deciding if they are going to punish a white school teacher for making a derisive remark about a black pupil. Again, the article is purely based on speculation and doesn't discuss the school directly or in-depth. So right there is two news articles that don't even discuss the school except in an extremely superficial way and based purely on speculation. "Blacks say school color flap dilutes history" is much of the same. As well as being an interview. "Booker benefits from longer year" starts out by interviewing a third grader and goes on to discuss the school adding 16 days to the semester, "Jamese Bryant, a fifth-grader, said he likes being in school because he gets to spend time with his friends. "I want short summers," Jamese said." Maybe there is no non-WP:MILL requirement, but I'm sure you would agree that Jamese wanting shorter summers isn't really in-depth, significant, direct coverage of the school. Let alone notability providing content for an article about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is significant coverage in two publications: the Sarasota Herald-Tribune and The Tampa Tribune.

I do not agree that the 1993 article "Budget cuts could kill modified school" is not primarily about the school. Of the 485-word article, only 99 words are not directly about the school. The article discusses the plan to extend the school year and how it would affect the students. The 2000 article "Booker benefits from longer year" from the Sarasota Herald-Tribune was published after the plan to extend the school year was implemented. It contains extensive discussion of the school:

Students at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota go to school 196 days a year, instead of 180. The extra 16 days of class mean that the school's 700 students have a scant six weeks of summer; they will return July 31. But neither students nor faculty seem to mind.

...

In the spring and the fall, just before seasonal vacations, teachers spend eight days on intensive, theme-based curricula focusing on such topics as medieval times, the ocean or recycling. The sessions give students a reprieve from the traditional reading, writing and math classes, offering field trips and fun projects.

...

The school has had a 196-day school year for seven years, but the calendar has been emphasized more recently because of Emma E.'s difficulty in raising test scores to average levels. This year the school has radically changed its curriculum to focus on reading and writing in every subject and to introduce skills necessary for tests as early as possible.

The 1990 article "Blacks say school color flap dilutes history" also provides extensive coverage of the school:

Freshly embossed Bulldog T-shirts, which cost the PTA its entire $1,200 treasury, have been discarded -- in belated recognition by the school's new administration of Booker's rich legacy as a center of education and progress for Sarasota's black community. The principal at the new Booker, which inherited the title of a longtime Newtown grammar school named for Sarasota County's first black principal, said he didn't realize the switch would strike such a raw nerve.

...

Enrollment at the new Booker is more than four times that of the old 260-pupil Booker, which closed as a grammar school last June and became part of the Booker Middle and High school complex on Orange Avenue North. Many of the new Booker pupils are white and live in north Sarasota County subdivisions between Interstate 75 and Sarasota Bay, said Fitz-Harris. The new Booker has a 55 percent black student body.

...

The school's recently formed and predominantly white PTA decided in October to conduct a vote among pupils to determine if they wanted to keep the purple- and-gold Tornado of the old Booker -- or to choose a new mascot and school colors from a list provided.

The sources discuss the school's history, its curriculum, its mascot and school colors, its school year length, and its controversies. There is more than enough information to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

Cunard (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it comes down to how you define the word "significant." For me it means "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention." Which I wouldn't consider things like school colors, how many weeks their semesters are, or some teacher "maybe" getting reprimanded for calling a student a guerilla. All schools have have "controversies", school colors, and school semesters go for a particular amount of time with literally every school. So there's nothing "important or worthy of attention" about any of that. Going by some of the things you've mentioned in this other AfDs though it seems like you have zero bar on the lower end for what qualifies as significant coverage and your definition of "significant" is literally anything. Like there could be a trivial local news story about someone graffitiing a penis on a school bathroom wall and you'd be arguing with me about why that is an important thing, something we should all be paying attention, and is therefore worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia and proves the school is notable. You might as well throw out the whole concept of significant coverage at that point, let alone notability. Even if you disagree though, WP:NOTDIRECTORY is clear that Wikipedia is not a "Simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit." Things like school color, mascot, and basic historical information like what year the school was founded, are the epitome of simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit. Especially when it comes to Elementary Schools. I'm sure you'd have some convoluted reason why something that's literally just "the schools colors are green and blue" has contextual information and encyclopedic merit though, but again at that point you might as well just say to hell with significant coverage and notability as concepts in the first. Personally I think a better route would be for you to admit you have zero or almost non-existing standards, me to say I have some, and for us to not get in these discussions anymore. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Schools do not define "significant" as meaning "sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention". As defined in Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, "significant coverage" means:

"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.

Discussion about a school's history, its curriculum, its mascot and school colors, its school year length, and its controversies "addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content" so the school does meet the guideline. The coverage in these sources is not about "someone graffitiing a penis on a school bathroom wall" which by itself would not establish notability. The coverage about the school colors is about a very serious topic: It involves race in the United States and what activists say is the "purg[ing] [from] the school of its historical identity":

Principal Brian Fitz-Harris canceled the display when blacks protested a decision to change the purple-and-gold Booker Tornado to a red-and-black Bulldog after more than 50 years.

Freshly embossed Bulldog T-shirts, which cost the PTA its entire $1,200 treasury, have been discarded -- in belated recognition by the school's new administration of Booker's rich legacy as a center of education and progress for Sarasota's black community. ... But black activist Ed James II said the switch was intended as a first step by Fitz-Harris and PTA President Susan Rogers to purge the school of its historical identity.

Cunard (talk) 23:32, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Where have I ever said that for something to be non-trivial it has to be the main topic of the source material? Obviously significant coverage is beyond a trivial mention and below the subject being the main topic of the article, but it's ridiculous to act like "Emma E. Booker Elementary School's mascot is a ferret" is a automatically significant coverage "because it does not need to be the main topic of the source material" or whatever. As far as the thing about the "activists", I think that it might be worth mentioning as a part of a broader article on racial discrimination in the school system, but it would be undue weight if that's solely what the article is based on. Not to mention probably create an attack article. It doesn't do the subject or readers of Wikipedia any just to have an article that is just about how some teachers of the school said some borderline racist crap. Maybe if it could be shown to be a broader, systemic issue, but there's zero evidence that is the case. Otherwise, we are just slandering a single teacher for saying something stupid and like the school supports that type of behavior when they don't. Outside of that I don't really care about an "activists" opinion, whatever that means. There is no clause in the notability guidelines that something is notable if there's a controversy involving it and "activists" aren't experts in anything. So their opinions are less then worthless, at least as far as this process goes. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Thanks. Having an article for Emma E. Booker is a good idea. Perhaps we can just mention the school there if one gets created before the AfD is closed. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The issue here is there's a Booker High School and a Booker Middle School - all within Newtown. There is a definite article to be made with Emma E. Booker here. There's also a lot of context here with segregation and school integration with these schools for the Sarasota metropolitan area. As I mentioned below, people have held onto the idea that this school is known on a national level because of Bush and 9/11. – The Grid (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
IMO you could maybe argue that the topic of segregation and school integration in Florida is a notable topic that an article on could include a mention of these schools in, I don't think that means these specific schools are notable on their own though. Especially not if the articles are based purely on the segregation issue. Outside of that I'd be interested to know which people have held onto the idea that this school is known on a national level because of Bush and 9/11 and how them holding onto that "idea" equates to notability.
The idea that the school is known nationally because of Bush and 9/11 is laughable anyway. I bet most people off the street can't tell you what school Bush discussed 9/11 at. Even people from Florida. It's an extremely obscure fact that literally no one cares about or remembers at this point. Probably not even a good percentage of people in Newtown. Honestly, the same goes for 9/11 in general. I was in a college class a few years ago and a good number of the students in the class didn't even know what 9/11 was when the teacher brought it up. So I doubt most people know about this school in relation to it. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you are saying to a degree but Sarasota County seems central to some of events leading up to 9/11. Two of the hijackers did their training in Venice at Huffman Aviation. Obviously, the focus of any article shouldn't be a coatrack for another event. I see the elementary school article to at least have improvements on notability. – The Grid (talk) 15:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hhhmmm, I wasn't aware that two of the high jackers had trained in the area. It's an interesting side fact, but as far as I know George Bush being at the school that day was pre-planned and had nothing to do with the high jackers. He didn't even know about the World Trade Centers being attacked until he was already there. So I doubt the visit had anything to do with the high jackers or anything related to 9/11. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I added one more source, which I don't believe was in Cunard's list. There is enough coverage outside of Bush and the September 11 attacks that can give the school notability. This article has better sourcing and notability than so many Wikipedia articles that it's almost laughable that it was brought to AFD.  DiscantX 09:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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