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im not sure all people employed for wages are working class(most lawyers,professors and doctors as well as at least some corporate executives work for wages,are they working class?!)
^^ agree. a wage (or salary) alone does not connote "working class". It comes down to how much that wage or salary amounts to , certainly? a person earning 8$ an hour and a person earning 35$ an hour are "worlds apart". Unfortunately so but that's the way it is. 2606:A000:1011:C249:414E:867A:AC73:578E (talk) (7-4-18) —Preceding undated comment added 19:53, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
One englishman said that during the recent few generations a lower class has been born. Traditionally people speak of the upper-, middle- and working classes, but the lower class is supposedly defined by their way of living on social security, and have no intention at all of contributing to society. In my opinion, "lower class" should not redirect to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.221.155.160 (talk) 16:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Lowerclass is the correct label however. "Working Class" is a specifically Marxist perspective with an Owner/Worker dichotomy, whilst lower is the appropriate designation in comparison to middle and upper. LeapUK (talk) 07:16, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
"The Answers are:" Did someone ask a question? That line and the bullets afterwards make no sense at all. Anyone care to explain?Vesperal 01:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This article isn't big enough to survive on its own. It adds nothing that can't be found in social class or any of several articles on Marxism. I'm going to merge it if there are no objections, leaving behind only a REDIRECT. --Uncle Ed 20:42, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Apparently, it is impossible to introduce the concept of working class without first discussing theories of social class. Let's merge the articles. AdamRetchless 23:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Lets not. Working class has the capacity to swamp Social class (see the bullet summary of Marxist debate alone). Fifelfoo 01:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Merged from Talk:Working-class: this page really helped me do a report on renoir thanks! i love wikipedia . org a lot!!!!!
The article stated that Marxists are atheist BECAUSE of their social beliefs about religion. I think that most atheists are such for metaphysical reasons, and their beliefs about the social role of religion are secondary. Also, to say that most Socialists are atheist or agnostic is flat out wrong, since there are many Christian socialist movements. AdamRetchless 17:30, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The reason many Marxists are atheist is becuase of dialectical thinking. Dialectical Materialism is an integral part of Marxism. --Chairman chris 17:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
That half the text is devoted to the idea that people are poor because they are lazy is a strong implicit POV. That section is also very non-specific. The article could be balanced with a section on "oppression by the rich", but I don't think that kind of non-specific tit-for-tat stuff tells the reader much. Any ideas fot NPOV? Jihg 18:06, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
AdamRetchless (talk · contribs) could you please produce a reference that the majority of the people in a developed economy do obtain most of their income from work. Note the book by Michael Zweig, Working Class Majority: America's Best Kept Secret, Cornell University Press (2001), trade paperback, 198 pages, ISBN 0801487277 in the further reading section. Fred Bauder 00:52, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
A question, also if the majority is not working class, what class would they fall into? Note that the introduction reads "It typically designates an intermediary class between poverty or unemployment and the greater financial security of middle class business owners, managers, and professionals." Fred Bauder 00:52, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
I looked at the review of that book, and looked at the introduction again, and the key words that conflict with the assertion that the working class constitutes a majority are "typically designates" and "financial security". If we are going by the common conception of "working class" (typical designation), then the majority of individuals in developed societies are "middle class." This is also true if we use the criteria of "financial security", which is the criteria that people typically use when speaking of "working class", along with access to higher education (I think the majority of adults in developed countries have graduated from a college). If we use more formal/technical definitions, as used by Zweig or Marx (control over work environment, income from capital), then we can probably make a case for "working class majority". The very fact that Zweig needed to write that book to argue that there is a working class majority suggests that this is not a commonly accepted assertion. AdamRetchless 02:51, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
I fixed up the introductory paragraph to make space for the statement about a working class majority, but forgot to add the statement myself. I think that paragraph is fit to be a real "introduction" (outside of any section) rather than being part of the definitions section, which can be reserved for more extensive descriptions of formal definitions. I also forgot to add any footnotes...but now I need to focus on keeping myself outside of the working class. :) AdamRetchless 03:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
i apologize to Max. i didn't realize that specifying the broad range of the working class was "right-wing POV." (although, it seems we have a new intro rewrite that looks smoother and more succinct) J. Parker Stone 03:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
"While some writers dispute the existance of a working class,"
Who are those writers? In what reputable reference do that say that?
Fred Bauder 02:13, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I'd immediately point to the stratification class systems which claim a fundamental distinction between "blue collar" and "white collar". See Australia's conception of the working class for example, which (since the 1980s) has transmuted into "Battlers" and "Aspirants". Bizarre but true, doesn't deserve more than a one line mention. Fifelfoo 03:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Many of the facts or generalizations are in fact opinions. For instance, the suggestion that one million dollars is needed to live in the US without working is highly subjective. (one could live on $500,000 quite easily, based on the average rate of return for conservative investments like mutual funds.) Furthermore, actual cash is not necessary - many people live comfortably on businesses worth less than $100,000 that they own.
Also, using Marxist language in the initial definition shows a political POV, as in "The main defining characteristic of the working class is its dependence on wage-labor (or salaried employment) as the main or only source of income, because of lack of capital assets or land that could provide an alternative source of livelihood." In reality, one could argue that the main defining characteristic is simply whether one is in management or whether one uses physical labor or 'brain' labor. In today's economy, it is not simply the lack of capital assets or land that may indicate working class, but also a lack of marketable knowledge. You can own 100 acres of rural land in most US states that would be impossible to earn a living on, while having the right knowledge could earn you a living anywhere.
Finally, the alleged sexual habits of the working class (citing research 57 and 32 years old) is irrelevant to this article unless we are going to take the ridiculous practice of defining working class by their sexual habits. Also, judging certain sexual habits as sophisticated shows a POV and this whole section is childish.jasoncward 01:11, 16 October 05
I'm moving this text here from the article:
According to Rubin, who cites as sources Kinsey (1948) and a national survey in Playboy magazine twenty-five years later, working class sexuality has increased considerably in sophistication during the last decades of the twentieth century: duration of foreplay has increased from near zero to an average of 15 minutes; the percentage of married men who have engaged in cunnilingus was reported at 15% in 1948 and at 56% 25 years later. This increase of sophistication has resulted in some dissatisfaction, especially among working class women, who may not enjoy or participate willingly in such practices as fellatio.
There is no context for this at the moment; the reader doesn't know why he or she should expect working class sexuality to be any different from the sexuality of other people. --Allen 18:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph:
"In the 18th century in Flanders and England more and more labourers subsisted only on the basis of their labour. They ceased to own tools, land or feudal privileges. Additionally, the dispossession of large numbers of peasants created wandering bands of vagabonds. These members of society were dispossessed by the wealthy in order to produce marketable commodities. This process, where traditional social and political roles are destroyed, and capitalist commodity relations are substituted, is bound up with the generation of working classes across the world and is commonly known as proletarianisation. "
I know there's some truth to be had here, but the paragraph as it stands is a Marxist diatribe. Anyone wanna take a stab at fixing it? Salvor Hardin 09:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a confused and inaccurate reference to Hitler's apparently not believing in the existence of a working class. Mein Kampf is replete with references to "working classes," for example.
Mentions of laziness need to be substantially revised. Laziness is often seen by aristocrats as a virtue; it's the middle class who believes it bad. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Hear, hear! From a middle-class person with all of the trappings of the lumpenproletariat, laziness most definitely is a virtue, far better than the Puritan crap about "work ethic" and "no pain, no gain" - as if industriousness was something desirable, something that lead to something more than mental and physical illness (and an early grave or missing mind) - that so imbues the middlebrow class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.176.190 (talk) 05:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Removed ((overcoverage)) from the American Working Class § because it doesn't match the content of the section which is about the subject title concept. If it is that you want to see a by region breakout then do it. The text as currently stands refers to the national concept. Also, I don't think there's very much if any regional variation in the use of this concept in the united states (in contrast to the global variation or even within the English Speaking world). 74.78.162.229 (talk) 06:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
"This article discusses the term as used in the Anglosphere" appears at the top of this article. Given that this is an English-language encyclopedia, couldn't this statement apply equally to almost every single article? What is the purpose of placing the statement on this particular article? --Yumegusa (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Good point. Actually, the term "working class" is only used this way in the UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.158 (talk) 10:09, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
As soon as you're born they make you feel small, By giving you no time instead of it all, Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school, They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool, Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years, Then they expect you to pick a career, When you can't really function you're so full of fear
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV, And you think you're so clever and classless and free, But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see
There's room at the top they are telling you still, But first you must learn how to smile as you kill, If you want to be like the folks on the hill
If you want to be a hero well just follow me, If you want to be a hero well just follow me
Is there any opinion on mentioning some songs, like John Lennon, Working Class Hero Youtube or totally unrelated. Kasaalan (talk) 10:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Stubbing this thread for discussion of the tags, which I dated but did not place. In "Improper Overcoverage Tag" above my position on globalize is stated. Someone else will have to state an anti-working class position. Lycurgus (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Laborer = Working class? Reindra (talk) 08:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
This may be better suited to a university class or a BBS, however:
I know, Marx put the drug addicts in the lumpenprole. Most modern authors I've read do the same, or the equivalent underclass concept. However, what gives: if the difference between middle and working class is spending on frivolity rather than necessity, where does an average heroin addict (or, replace heroin with alcohol, or any other physically addictive drug that can not be quit and/or has a guaranteed relapse rate without extensive medical treatment) who easily spends $100 USD on his habit every day, but comes by his money through legal means, and is not a vagabond, fit in? for such a person would obviously have to make an absolute minimum of $57,500 USD a year - a figure that is solidly middle-class. Count heroin as being either a necessity to the addict, which it most definitely is, or as a frivolity: the implications stand the same. Or the medical treatment, expensive at best, and often lifelong, required to keep such a person stable, and to treat diseases he may have contracted while using? A person like this could easily make $150,000 USD per annum, yet have very little "disposable" income.
Where do those people fit, who, in finding no use for frivolity and frippery - such as mass-marketed, spoon-fed and overpriced low-culture "fashion" or re-branded Toyota sold for double or triple mark-up as Lexus - spend most of their money on sustenance, but have sizable bank accounts or investments? People who require medical treatment that costs scores of thousands of dollars a year?
Is it to be found in these theories, that millionaires, possessed of a lack of lack of taste, and therefore not possessed of any interest in the typical middlebrow shit that is spoon-fed to the masses, are indeed considered working-class, if they are not fops in possession of so many Veblen goods that Veblen goods themselves should be renamed?
And that a dole recipient, wearing Burberry and Gucci, living far beyond their means, is indeed considered to have risen above the lumpenproletariant and attained middle-classness, or attained to the petit bourgoisie?
A person living on inheritance, never having worked in his life, although that inheritance is only enough to secure a minimal standard of living? Under Marx's interpretation, still solidly haute bourgois: but in reality, "working class".
I myself fell in to all of the above categories at one point in my life or another, and still fall in to many. Many people I know (yeah, confirmation bias, and anecdotal at that) also fall in to one or more. I ask: in the mainstream theories as discussed in these series of Wikipedia articles on social class, are such people accorded a place, or are they treated as outliers to make the sociological qualification of an economic matter fitting and quantifiable, using idealised theory - like Descartes' ideal model of Vortices - to paint at best a poor picture, and a misleading one, making distinctions in the mainstream that are always outliers?
What is an "essential"? A college education? Food? Water? How many years, at state or Ivy League? How many calories, meat or grain? How pure, and at what temperature? Medical treatment? What level, what speed, for what conditions? Books, fiction, non-fiction, or text? How many pages? To be caught dead with less than several thousand books would have me drop dead of embarrassment - yet I have no automobile (and I am by no means an environmentalist or global warmist or veganist) and live in a rented, small apartment, with the only trappings of the typical bourgoisie being a timepiece of the wrist and a fountain pen - and walls covered in books, in the middle of a solidly lower-class neighborhood? From the person, a (lumpen)proletariat - from his portfolio and education, upper-middle class. Which of these is chosen to represent the person? - as I have never heard of the "working-class rich".
In this there seems to be a serious problem with the presentation of these theories, if not the theories themselves: but I am not an economist, nor a sociologist.75.179.176.190 (talk) 05:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Could link from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class#Weberian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.131.43.12 (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
" Working class" is a British concept. It does not apply to North America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.122.158 (talk) 10:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
This article is entitled "Working class". But it contains 14 instances of "working-class". Which is correct? Presumably the noun is not hyphenated but the adjective always should be? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I am employed by Boston University's Fineman & Pappas Law Libraries. After reviewing this Wikipedia page, I believe that information from one of our faculty's scholarship might provide a valuable addition to this page. I would appreciate it if this requested edit could be reviewed.
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Add the following sentences to the Definitions section: "As with many terms describing social class, working class is defined and used in many different ways. The most general definition, used by many socialists, is that the working class includes all those who have (more or less, they do not own e.g a factory) nothing to sell but their labour. These people used to be referred to as the proletariat, but that definition has gone out of fashion. In that sense, the working class today includes both white and blue-collar workers, manual and mental workers of all types, excluding only individuals who derive their livelihood from business ownership and the labour of others.[1][verification needed]"The term, which is primarily used to evoke images of laborers suffering "class disadvantage in spite of their individual effort," can also have racial connotations.[2] These racial connotations imply diverse themes of poverty that imply whether one is deserving of aid. [3]
"and one state has turned inwards into an increasing cycle of poverty and brutalization (North Korea)" - This is a value judgment, I think it is unacceptable for an encyclopedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.68.79.82 (talk) 19:39, 30 July 2022 (UTC)