Do Not Merge. I would suggest that Tetragrammaton is a more technical term than the possible transcription Yahweh. If someone suggests a merge, then it should be that Yahweh be subsumed under the title Tetragrammaton, since Yahweh (either as [jɑ-wɛ'] or [jɑ-vɛ']) is only one of several transliterations of יהוה. Yonah mishael 20:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
This article could use some IPA transcriptions of the various pronunciations discussed within. Agateller 20:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The word "Jehovah" is found in many English Dictionaries, reference books and literary works, and has been part of the English language for many centuries. May I therefore suggest that it should similarly be duly listed and defined/explained on its own Wikipedia page. The subject of the derivation of the word is another matter, and a hyperlink to "tetragrammaton" should be included in the main article. I note that the word "Jesus" has its own page (at the moment!) and that that article contains many useful cross-referencing hyperlinks. However, are we to expect that soon the "Jesus" article will similarly be converted to an automatic fork to a lengthy discussion page about whether or not the current western/English pronunciation and spelling is actually 'correct'?--62.7.144.46 00:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Interestingly, the See also section of this article contains a link to Jehovah which currently redirects back to the same article. Obviously redundent. That link should be removed until such time as a seperate article on Jehovah is created. TRiG 03:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Discussions from July 2002-July 2004 are archived here. Compare to e.g. the page as it was in April 2004. Topics covered include merge with Yahweh, see the last version of Yahweh before the merge, the Jehovah Witnesses (of course!), and an edit war over Jehovah vs. Yahweh in May 2004. The talk seems to indicate that the page was protected for a while, but I could find no mention in the relevant protection log archive. Summarized and archived by Gadykozma 06:14, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A discussion from September 2004 is archived here (I left a number of minor discussions from the same period on the main page). Lots of information about the Tetragrammaton with Niqqud in medieval texts was presented, and some of it made it way to the page, which was refactored as a result. Compare the page before and after. Summarized and archived by Gadykozma 15:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The previous Wikipedia Article:Transcribing YHWH has been changed to the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton content fork During this major change, once again, the Wikipedia Article: Jehovah was deleted.
Seeker02421 11:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
NPOV is one of tone. The policy is also quite clear that all articles must be WP:V verifiable. Policy specifically states that Wikipedia must follow scholarly convention. Those views that differ from the scholarly consensus are not NPOV, but may be WP:OR and unverifiable.
Views of important organizations that differ from the scholarly consensus if that organization is identified. For example: "Organization Abc believes, however, that Yahweh is not the correct rendition of the ancient word." It is important to write "organization Abc believes..."
It is not a question of the views of one against the most "popular", but the views of one against consensus, of one against Wikipedia policy (WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR).
In that regard, I have reverted to the edits of Castanea dentata, since one sub-topic — Transcribing the tetragrammaton — was several screens long and dominated the entire article. She was right to summarize the section and place it with a link to its own article. The reason this is correct is that Wikiepedia guidelines spell out quite clearly that there should not be duplicate articles and sections. When there are, it is called WP:POVFORK.
This includes not only duplicate articles but also duplicate sections of different articles. Castanea dentata was careful to follow Wikipedia guidelines for formatting articles with a section summary and link per Wikipedia:Section#.22Main_article.22_summary_section.
Editors who dislike these policies and guidelines may edit at Wikinfo, which allows forking into POV articles.Wyeson 21:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
At the above link is found the text below:
Seeker02421 14:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Apparently no "Speedy Deletion" of the Article Jehovah took place.
On 29 March 2006 at 15:10 Wighson moved the article "Jehovah" to the apparently newly created article :Transcribing YHWH. The move was defined as a "minor" (m) edit.
The following information appears when you click on [MOVE]
I think that it is safe to say that:
Apparently this Wikipedia Article:Jehovah once again exists, as a separate article, and can presently be safely edited.
Seeker02421 23:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia Article:Transcribing YHWH now exists. It is found at the Address below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcribing_YHWH
The Wikipedia Article:Transcribing YHWH replaces The Wikipedia Article:Jehovah which apparently was deleted by a process explained at: Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion
Besides this page now seems to contradict what was said before, that the true pronunciation of YHWH is lost. eg."this pronunciation of the tetragrammaton was never really lost."
Restored page due to vandalism by Castanea dentata. This page has been restored enough for a day. 65.111.220.37 02:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Removed Jehovah's Witnesses's massive re-editing which forced a reader to conclude that their "Jehovah" is the only reasonable pronunciation of YHWH. 17:00 3 Dec 2005
Readers will be aware that the lead article states that the tetragrammaton consists of four Hebrew vowels, whereas other references within the entry indicate or state that the four characters are consonants. Perhaps someone should clarify this and ensure that there is some unity of definition, if one exists.--213.120.56.33 23:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. I think I see what you mean..."vowels used as semi-consonants" etc. In my ignorance I have been confused by the frequent references (to the four characters of the tetragrammaton) as 'consonants' in other sources. So, really I should think of the four 'letters' as perhaps neither consonants nor vowels, but as simply as 'characters'. Thanks Zappaz. (If I've got it clear now, I'll delete my query in due course. Shall I delete your answer at the same time?)--212.140.159.206 16:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I wonder if we should nominate this page for show on the Wp main page? I think it is excellent! Clear concise and understandable even if you know little about Hebrew, even ancient hebrew. Not too technical. Etc, etc... Am I jumping the gun? george 23:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I want to question the sentence: "It is thought by some, and disputed by others, that the pronunciation "Jehovah" is a combination of the consonants of the tetragrammaton with the vowels of Adonai, and historically recent." - I would like to see a relevant scholarly source that questions this. It is a fact. Hatef patah [a] under ' (aleph) turns into shewa [e] under yod. I suggest rephrasing. -- 213.81.195.98 18:06, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
213.81.195.98
The new Wikipedia Article the Tetragrammaton in the Bible deals with this issue in a little more detail.
Seeker02421 11:50, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Seeker02421 12:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Seeker02421 12:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed the text "He Causes to Become" at one place to "He will cause to become", since if you indeed think of it as the verb [הוה] in the 3rd building [פיעל], it is a future form. Should I fix it in other places or explain that it is customary to consider this as present even though grammatically it is future? Also this text: Yahweh-Asher-Yahweh is obviously wrong, but I am not sure how to correct it. Was the Hebrew original present [יהוה אשר הוה] or future [יהוה אשר יהיה]? Can someone who knows his way around fix it?
Regarding the tense, tense is often very confused in Biblical Hebrew. The first thing that comes to mind is the Song of the Sea: "אז ישיר משה" (literally "Then Moses will sing"), when it should reasonably be "אז שר משה" ("Then Moses sang") in context. This happens often in Biblical Hebrew.
As to the second, I know of one place that mentions anything like it: Exodus 3:14. As you can see, there it's pronounced "eyeh asher eyeh", but it's also in the first person rather than the third and in the basic (פָּעַל) rather than the intensive (פִּעֵל) construction. —Simetrical (talk) 23:48, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is the whole crux of the matter...again, "Changing" the Bible, when the Revelation clearly states that to add or subtract anything from the Scriptures is a sin surely to get one the loss of any form of Everlasting Life" that we have been promised by the Son of God, Jesus Christ"Rev,:22: Vss.18-19, and I'll qoute it for you so that there is NO MISUNDERSTANDING:
"Vs.18:"I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of THIS scroll.If "ANYONE" makes an addition to these things, GOD will add to him the plaques that are written in this scroll"vs.19:and , if "anyone" takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy,GOD will take his portion from the trees of life and out of the HOLY CITY, things which are written about in this scroll".
So, what do we start talking about the second there is a fair consensus about the NAME of the Sovereign LORD JEHOVAHin the English speaking world? and the English Transliteration is Jehovah's Himself of the Most Holy Name which noone has given Jehovah except Himself, and we are going to change it!
To What??? And, are we going to change the thousands of other Hebrew, Jewish and Yiddish names?Or Just the Most Holy Jehovah's alone?
Will the name of "MOSES become the Egyptian form of the Hebrew word for his name , for his could really be a great mix, living all of his life as a Hebrew in Egypt!More strikingly, what would it be? Oh, we could add a vowel here , or two consanants there and we might get "Dudley"!(As "Dudley Moore"played "Moses" in his movie about him being the hearer of the "I am that I am"phrase that helps with all of the confusion that the King James Bible declared in the 16th century? We can all vote and we shall call "MOSES" Motley Crue, as we don't really know the VERY EXACT Pronunciation of the name MOSES!or for any Hebrew, Jew or new Yiddish person in the Israeli Plains...we can have birthdays for all every day and stuff ourselves with cake and ice cream.
after all, it won't matter anyway according to Jesus Christ who came to bears witness about the TRUTH and the Name of God, as we shall all be dust as Jehovah, who told Moses that the transliteration of the tetragrammaton was HIS name as a memorial FOREVER. Ex.20:7 says that "YOU MUST NOT TAKE UP THE NAME OF JEHOVAH IN A WORTHLESS WAY!"and is this less important than the rest of the ten words or the 600 commandments?...By a show of hands:Which commandment is the MOST IMPORTANT?..WHO gets the first vote?...I abstain as I know it already and I am NOT changing anything again!NO, NOT ME!Thanks!
Thank you for your time again,and who WAS is it that WAS concerned about the tense?.Oh, yes:"Yonah mishael"....Catch you later,Mish!-!
Richard Lauzon71.51.170.34 15:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Richard,
I never thought I would be the direct recipient of a writing sample that would fall into the same category as Larkin's Rightly Dividing the Word or Hislop's The Two Babylons. This style of writing, notorious among the KJV Only camp and Dispensationalists, does not generally encourage exchange or scholarship. It is sloppy and unintelligible for the most part, though I must say that I am honored to be the party addressed in your confusion. May you either learn silence (for the sake of your reputation) or find a teacher who can direct you onto firmer paths. As it is, your writing speaks for itself. Have a nice day.
Yonah
I wish to thank whoever deleted my previous link to the Melchizedek article. I share your concern to keep articles on track and to eliminate extraneous material that overburdens them. I am also aware of the hoary dispute over relative primacy between archaeologists and philologists. It was not my intention to violate the former nor to re-open the latter. Devers is an archaeologist with, I feel, an outstanding reputation. The late Ephraim Speiser was a scholar of Semitic languages and professor and chairman of Oriental Studies at the University of Pennsylvania; he translated Genesis for the Anchor Bible series. I simply thought readers might be interested in the appearance of the word “Yahweh” in a non-Hebrew Old Testament context, according to Speiser, dating to perhaps 200 hundred years earlier than the one mentioned in the text of the original article. This would push the “origin” of “Ya” (the presumed original form of “Yahweh”)back even further than supposed. I thought the link fit in better here than under the Meaning or Transcription sections. My current rephrasing the link should be acceptable. 217.230.181.218 13:01, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)Eypper217.230.181.218 13:01, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC) Incidentally, the Melchizedek article does indeed mention Yahweh, and more importantly cites Speiser's translation and commentary on Genesis, where the full details can be found. 217.230.181.218 13:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)Eypper217.230.181.218 13:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The article states that "On their own official website under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?", the Watchtower Society acknowledges that Jehovah does not have the correct vowels."
It goes beyond this: "When it came to God's name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say 'Adho·nai'. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God's name from the Hebrew original."
So the Watchtower Society acknowledges that the vowels from Jehova come from the vowels of Adhonai. So I doubt the following sentence from the Wikipedia article "However, some Jehovah's Witnesses emphatically deny this explanation for the origin of the reading, which they consider to be correct. " And even if this might be the case for some JW who are not well aware of their own publications, I would at least like to see the following sentence "On their own official website under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?", the Watchtower Society acknowledges that Jehovah does not have the correct vowels." changed to "On their official website ... under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?" acknowledges this fact" or "agrees with this explanation"
Heiko Evermann 18:52, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
that doesn't make much sense to me, please can you give the source to thw watchtower official website as a direct link [the suffix to www.watchtower.org is desired]
This newly created Wikipedia Article on "Iaoue" needs to be edited. Are there any volunteers here, who would edit this Wikipedia Article on "Iaoue" which supports the pronunciation "Yahweh"?
Seeker02421 09:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Mpolo.
I was not able to view "יַהְוֶה" well, but יַהְוֶה, printed out fine.
It prints out much clearer, than what I see on my computer screen.
Can you provide me a link where I can get more Hebrew unicodes than what you provided in your early edits of "Iaoue" [e.g. יַהְוֶה]
Seeker02421 14:51, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Seeker inserted some stuff about a Gerard Gertoux, who has certain views on how the Tetragrammaton should be pronounced. Unless he provides a reference, this will not stand - I have certainly never heard of Gerard, nor does his viewpoint sound plausible. The only reason the Tetragrammaton is printed without vowels is to prevent people from trying to pronounce it. Moreover, all ancient Hebrew texts were unvowelised.
I also doubt why we need a seperate Iaoue article, while this is essentially about the same thing. JFW | T@lk 11:31, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Gerard Gertoux is a scholar who possibly knows more details about the "Jehovah/Yahweh" controversy, than any other person on the planet earth.
Gerard Gertoux entered the "Jehovah"/ "Yahweh" controversy in 2002, when he wrote a 328 page book titled:
THE NAME OF GOD
Y.EH.OW.AH
WHICH IS PRONOUNCED
AS IT IS WRITTEN
I_EH_OU_AH
Gerard Gertoux wrote his book to demonstrate that "Yehowah" and not "Yahweh" was more likely to be God's name.
Many Jehovah's Witnesses though that he might aid their cause greatly, but Gerard Gertoux's conclusion was that "YHWH [without vowel points] is spelled "Iehoua" and pronounced "Yehua"
I personally believe that the article on Iaoue is importent, because it plays such a large part in showing where the name "Yahweh" has come from. The information found in Iaoue would not be allowed to be posted on Tetragrammaton because of the space it takes up.
I personally believe that any article on the Tetragrammaton, that says nothing about "Iaoue" is not a NPOV article.
Gerard Gertoux is important because he along with Sacred name ministries believe that it is possible to pronounce YHWH [even when it has no vowel points]
Sacred name ministries are on the "Yahweh" side of the "Jehovah/Yahweh" controversy.
Gerard Gertoux strongly opposes the name "Yahweh"
There is balance in covering both Gerard Gertoux and Sacred name ministries.
In my opinion, in a NPOV article on the Tetragrammaton, the view that it is possible to spell YHWH [without vowel points], and to pronounce YHWH [without vowel points] deserves a hearing, however this could be discussed in a separate article linked to Tetragrammaton.
Seeker02421 12:46, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I edited it again... I left out a few pieces, here is why:
It seemed irrelevant: we don't have any text containing the Tetragrammaton that old, right?
I think that the only importance of this fact is to substantiate the explanation of the Ben Chayim codex niqqud (it does a very good job at that, I must say). However, in order for it to do that one has to know Hebrew and see the precise niqqud, the hataf-segol under the yod etc. So, for the casual reader, this text is meaningless, while for the advanced reader, it is too short and uninformative. I think that in this page it is enough to state that the explanation is convincing, without actually showing why.
The problem here is similar. This needs to be discussed in greater length, or none at all. I actually cannot understand it. Probably the best would be to do it in the iaoue page.
I didn't see how this is relevant
Finally, I reinstated the "partially" in the text
Please don't remove it. This explanation is bad because if we agree that this is Adonai vowels interlaced with יהוה then the rules of grammer are irrelevant. Worse, the interlacing with the vowels of Elohim puts a hataf-segol under the yod! So this really explains very little. I was actually tempted to write "a lame excuse is derived from the rules of Hebrew grammer"... Gadykozma 05:38, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On July 7, 2004 someone with the name "JW BERT" discussed why the actual vowels of aDoNaY were not placed above and below YHWH in the Masoretic Text.1
On July 7, 2004 Gerard Gertoux explains to JW BERT why JHW-H (sic) must be vocalized "Yeho-ah" or "Yehou-ah". 2
1 JW BERT discusses why YHWH is spelled "Yehowah not Yahowah"
2. Gerard Gertoux explains to JW BERT why JHW-H (sic) must be vocalized Yeho-ah or Yehou-ah.
Seeker02421 22:22, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I removed the text (see below), which was imported from Reconstructing the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton for the following reasons:
I guess this text could be useful for a specialized page on the Tetragrammaton, but I'm not sure Wikipedia is sufficiently staffed to write a page which is both scientific and POV-problematic on this topic. Gady 16:44, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Begin removed text
=== Scholarly Sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found === The vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton shown below: "יַהְוֶה" started to appear in scholarly sources in the 19th century, or possibly earlier: "יַהְוֶה" was not the only vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton that appeared in scholarly sources in the 19th century, but gradually it became accepted as the best reconstruction of the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton. Smith's " A Dictionary of the Bible" [[#Footnotes|<sup>3</sup>]] [published in 1863] notes that Wilhelm Gesenius, who is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars, [[#Footnotes|<sup>4</sup>]] punctuated YHWH as "יַהְוֶה". Wilhelm Gesenius wrote a Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament which was first translated into English in 1824. [[#Footnotes|<sup>5</sup>]]. In 1863, Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible" does not consider "יַהְוֶה" to be the best vowelised Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton, of which it is aware of. The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown and S.R. Driver and C.A. Briggs shows "יַהְוֶה" under the heading "יהוה" "יַהְוֶה" is found in the online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906, under the article: "NAMES OF GOD" and under the article sub heading: "YHWH".[[#Footnotes|<sup>6</sup>]] The Jewish Encylopedia recognizes that "יַהְוֶה" is spelled "Yahweh" in English, but "יַהְוֶה" is only one of two vowelized Hebrew spellings, that they believe might have been the original pronunciation of YHWH. * [http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/YahwehfromSmithsBibleDictionarylowres.JPG Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible"] * [http://www.bartleby.com/65/ge/Gesenius.html Wilhelm Gesenius is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars.] * [http://www.greaterthings.com/Bibliography.htm Wilhelm Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament was first translated into English in 1824,] * [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N The online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906]
end removed text
On the main page, it says "Josephus wrote that the sacred name consisted of four vowels"
Where did he write this?--Josiah 03:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Yoshiah ap,
In The Works of Josephus
Antiquities of the Jews and a History of the Jewish Wars etc.
In Chapter V [Wars of the Jews]:
"...A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue riband, about which there was anther golden crown, in which was engraved the sacred name [of God]:it consisted of four vowels..."
Seeker02421 11:08, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This text יְהֺוָה is not showing correctly. Can you check that the gplyphs are correct? --Zappaz 16:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hello Josiah. What do you mean? --Zappaz 03:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
yep: Got it and edited it. --03:36, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that the tetragrammaton is spelt inconsistantly throughout the article. What should it be? A V or a W? Benji man
OK, I changed all "YHVH"s to "YHWH". While I was at it, I replaced "vav" with "waw", and "ha-Shem" with "Hashem", since the latter spelling occured more often than the former one. Benji man 11:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Excuse me for interrupting, but isn't the language of the second tetragrammaton in the picture paleohebraic and not Aramaic? Modern Hebrew today uses the square letters, correctly noted, that came from Aramaic, not early Hebrew. Early Hebrew's alphabet was similar to Hebrew, so the pictures actually represent PaleoHebraic and Square characters, not Phonoecian, Aramaic, and Modern Hebrew. Please make the appropriate changes as I do not see how to. Thank you. Chris Weimer 22:18, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Actually Strong’s Hebrew word #3069 [e.g. Yehovih] does not have precisely the same Hebrew vowel points as "Elohiym" has.
James Strong’s spelling of Hebrew word #3069 [e.g. Yehovih] is "יְהֺוִה"
The spelling of "Yehovih" that is thought to be found in the underlying Hebrew of the King James Bible is "יֱהֺוִה" It is this spelling of "Yehovih" [e.g. "יֱהֺוִה"] that that has precisely the same vowel points as "Elohiym" [e.g. "אֱלֺהִים"] has.
Seeker02421 20:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Should this article be merged with the Names of God in Judaism? Pinnecco 10:00, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose Traditional Jewish editors and readers need a way to refer to information about the Tetragrammaton, such as for example in an article on Yom Kippur, without risking actually pronouncing the name. Accordingly, Tetragrammaton needs to be usable as a direct link. --Shirahadasha 02:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, in Italy the Name is written 'Iavè', or 'Iahvè', or 'Jahvè' (with 'J' pronounced like English 'Y') or 'Yahweh' (with 'w' pronoun like 'v'); however, it is rarely used by catholics, apart during the mass while reading the Scriptures excerpts where it is mentioned. In any case, 'Geova' is definitely used only by 'Testimoni di Geova' (the Italian branch of 'Witnesses of Jehovah'), and maybe by other protestant creeds, then for sure this info must be corrected. Very good article... I hope I'll understand it, at last :-) --MOnSTEr 18:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I see the name in Italian is again 'Geova'. It seems to me that, if such part of the article has to stay there, it must be correct; so the 'name in Italian' should be 'Jahve' (pronounced 'Iavè'), given the fact that in Italy this is the current translitteration of the tetragrammaton: apart of the numeric minority of Witnesses of Jehova, no one uses 'Geova' for this purpose. 'Iahve' is used in the Bible as translated by the CEI (the Italian Episcopal Conference), and therefore, if not the most correct (questionable, and questioned just here), for sure is the most spread translitteration in Italy. --MOnSTEr 20:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It was also Martin Buber's opinion, save that Yahu simply means "O,Him" 139.165.96.129Inyan
Added an important aspect and can be found from the scriptures themselves as to why the 'fear/reverance' increased after the destruction of the First Temple. The main topic of Jeremiah and Ezekiel plus the latter end of 2nd Kings and 2nd Chronicles is how YHWH tries to turn Judah from their idolatry and sinful deeds so that they may know that "ANI YHWH" (I-am YHWH).
Did not add how the 'reverance' increased even more after the destruction of the temple by Antiocus prophecied through Daniel; and the last destruction by Titus in AD70 which also was prophecied through Daniel, Messiah, and the sent-ones (apostles). I also did not add the German Holocost which is prophecied in in Ezekiel plus their return to the land in 1948. All these events drive home that YHWH is a living and active God which causes his word to be.
You would reverance His name if it was your family and your neighbors who were ridiculed, tortured, killed, taken away as captives according to the recorded words of the God of your fathers.
--dmonty 03:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
NOTE:
Added further explanation of the meaning of the name with 1st person 3nd person examples from context.
--dmonty 03:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
NOTE:
Under MEANING, added the explanation of the name by poetic parallel that the bible provides, as surely no contemplation of the actual meaning of the name can be serious without what the authors of Exodus, themselves have given.Jiohdi 21:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that it is inappropriate to have Yahweh redirect here. There is a place on wikipedia for a discussion of the God of the Israelites, specifically, and what scholars believe about his origins and so forth. This article is (appropriately) largely focused on YHWH as a name, and the history of it as a name. But I think there's a place for a discussion of the Hebrew God as a concept. That place is neither here nor at God, which wisely focuses on the idea of God more generally. The appropriate place for this, then, would seem to be at Yahweh, which is generally considered by scholars as the best rendering of YHWH. What do people think? john k 02:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This sounds reasonable to me. I can understand not wanting a different article each for Yahveh, Yahvah, etc., but Yahweh kind of stands on its own as the main transliteration. Yahnatan 03:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Migne P.G. quotes Clement of Alexandria as saying that the Tetragrammaton is pronounced "Iaou" not "Iaoue".
What evidence is there that Clement of Alexandria ever wrote that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced "Iaoue"?
Seeker02421 10:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article Iaoue, a work in progress, mentions that the variants "Iaou" and "Iaoue" and "Iaouai" are found in various editions of Clement of Alexandria's Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, where Clement explains how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced.
Seeker02421 10:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I redirected a new short article titled IHVH here; there was nothing in the article not covered here. Basically it was just the alternate roman-character spelling, plus the theory mentioned here about a god named "Yah" or "Yaw" or possible "Jah". If the author of IHVH would like to disagree, this section is a good place. MCB 08:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Under the "Vowel marks" section in Wikipedia:Tetragrammaton it says:
I am about to remove Footnote # 5 because the Hebrew Grammar Rule it points to has been proven to be incorrect, on b-Hebrew.
Footnote # 5 points to the link below:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Two/A-Type_Vowels/a-type_vowels.html
At the above link is states:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-September/025807.html
At the above link Peter Kirk lists the following verses where a hataf-patah [e.g. Chateph Patach] is found under a non-guttural letter in the Leningrad Codex
With hataf patah: GEN 2:12; 3:17; 10:3; 12:3; 18:21; 22:18; 24:60; 25:22; 26:4,12; 27:19,27,27,29,31,33,34,38,41; 28:6,14; 30:27,38; 38:12; 48:9,20; 49:23; EXO 8:5; LEV 6:11,19; 9:23; NUM 5:18,19,24,24,27; 6:23,27; 10:9; 16:32; 18:10,13; 23:18,25; 24:9; 33:55; DEU 5:27; 8:2,15; 15:20,22; 24:13; JOS 11:2; 22:7,33; JDG 5:2,9,12; 7:6,7; 1SA 13:10; 24:11; 2SA 8:10; 13:25; 19:40; 1KI 8:66; 14:21; 2KI 19:16; 1CH 1:6; 4:10; 18:10; 26:5; 29:20; 2CH 5:12,13; 12:13; 20:21,26; 23:13; 30:27; 31:8; 35:15; EZR 8:26; NEH 2:6; 3:13; 7:67,67; 9:5; 11:2; 12:29; JOB 1:5,11; 2:5; 29:25; 31:20,37; 33:25; 34:10; PSA 12:7; 31:12; 34:1,2; 55:19,22; 64:9; 68:7; 72:15; 73:28; 74:5; 76:12; 83:13; 96:2; 100:4; 103:1,2,20,21,22,22; 104:1,35; 107:38; 134:1,2; 135:19,19,20,20; 140:4; 143:12; 144:15; 145:1,2,10; PRO 30:17; ECC 6:2; 9:7; SNG 3:6; 8:2; ISA 19:25; 31:8; 48:14,17; JER 22:28; 31:33; 32:9; EZK 4:9,10,10,12; 7:15; 9:8; 35:6,6; DAN 2:19,35; 4:9,18; 6:23; 7:19; 9:18,19; 12:10; JOL 3:3; MIC 3:9; ZEC 4:12
Seeker02421 20:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. That is quite a list. Peter is a good scholar. He and I have disagreed about some things in the past (even recently) on B-Hebrew, but I respect the man a lot. Thanks for providing his list of exceptions here.
I looked up the first two really quickly, and I saw that the normal form זְהַב is written זֲהַב in Gen 2:12. I do not know the reason for this, but it would seem to be by analogy to the following patach. Gen 3:17 has the verb תֹּאכֲלֶנָּה (you will eat it). Without the object suffix, it is written תֹּאכַל (you shall eat). The suffix apparently changes the length of the vowel but not the quality. From what I see in The Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary (Davidson) on page 744, this happens when you add object pronoun suffixes to the qal second-person singular imperfect form of this verb. On the same page of this dictionary, the form תְּאַלֲצֵהוּ has the same oddity. My assumption regarding the purpose of this vowelization was to avoid ambiguity and to ensure proper reading by demonstrating clearly that this was a pronounced vowel rather than a silent sheva. I can't be sure, and this isn't the place for such a debate. Although there are so many appearances of a composite sheva with non-guttural letters throughout the Tanakh, this is still not a regular occurrence. It does happen as an exception to the rule, but all rules are able to be bent or broken without upsetting their usefulness for the general case. The general rule (with its exceptions) is that a composite sheva does not appear with a non-guttural letter of the alphabet. This could be compared to the fact that Resh ר does not tend to accept a dagesh, but there are places in the Tanakh where רּ appears (cf. B-Hebrew Archives, below). This does not keep grammarians from explaining compensatory lengthening in terms of the Resh (and other gutturals) not accepting dagesh. - Yonah |
Both Tetragrammaton and Yehuah are about the same divine being. I say we merge them. --SoothingR 11:13, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I actually think we should delete the Yehoua article altogether, as it is both reduntant and biased (it takes the Bible as divinely-inspired truth without a second thought).--Rob117 23:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
My first impulse was similar on seeing the addition of Russian, but it should also be noted that the Serbian someone added (and for which we could use a version in Cyrillic) isn't alphabetal either. I think a contributor can be excused for not doing this, as it ought to be acknowledged that adding an entry or two into the middle of this table is an enormous PIA, and that an editor with useful information to add to it might not feel up to the task of rearranging the whole table to accomodate it. I didn't fix it myself for the same reason. In any event, I can't see cutting information solely on formatting grounds. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear IP 172.208.29.110 / 172.129.132.131 / 172.156.242.240 -- the changes which you're so insistent on don't really add anything to this article. Please discuss them on this page, if you feel that they have any validity, instead of just adding them in again. AnonMoos 19:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor has added a comment to the head of this table wondering why it's in the article. That's a good question. Is it of any particular use in a general-interest article like this one? TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I have modified all occurrences of "Hashem", "hashem" to "HaShem". "Ha" in Hebrew is an article but not ordinarily written as a seperate word. In order to distinguish it from the noun that follows in Latin transliteration either a hyphen or CamelCase is employed. The latter seems to be more common, so that's the one I used. Ditto for the single occurence of "Hameforash" and for the same reason.
I cut the "Other uses of the word" section since it was in the wrong place and its only content, the well-known huckster Prophet Yahweh, isn't terribly relevant here and has his own article. I suppose he can go on a dab page if someone wants to make one. TCC (talk) (contribs)
Pronouncing YHWH as "HaShem" was not practiced during Masoretic times, and has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the Masoretic pointing of the Tetragammaton, so please stop changing Adonai or Elohim to "HaShem" in the context of the discussion of Niqqud. AnonMoos 19:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Would an editor familiar with both Hebrew vowel points and IPA please insert the IPA equivalents at the appropriate places so that those not familiar with Hebrew can see how this word has been or is pronounced? I realize that it is not spoken in Judaism, but that has not stopped folks from trying, as is evident from the article. --Blainster 17:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
While not being a perfect system (especially in the hands of a novice like myself), the IPA gives a much more distinct set of possibilities for pronunciation. For example, the letter c can represent sounds such as the /k/ in "catch" [kætʃ] or the /s/ in "presence" ['prɛzəns]. In German it often represents the /ts/ sound in hits [hɪts]; for example, December [dɛ'tsɛmbɒ]. In Italian, it can represent the /tʃ/ in ciao [tʃaʊ].
In this instance, does the w stand for the English w /w/ or the German w /v/? Are the h’s somehow aspirated or harsh-sounding? All of this can be clarified by using IPA transcription. You can specify whether you mean Yahweh to be understood as [jɑ'wɛ] or [jɑ'vɛ], thus demonstrating that the h’s are silent and that the w’s should be pronounced either as a /w/ or as a /v/. |
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
Seeker02421 15:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. I will add this to the article (Reconstructed pronunciation). The link to the key you used works for your example, but I suggest we stick to the Wiki version I gave above at IPA. If the "h" above is silent, I think it should be left out— my read is that the hw combination is used when one would have a "wh" sound like in "which" (where "h" modifies) as opposed to "witch". And the "e" as in "bed" sound is OK for Australian but is given as "ɛ" for Received or American English. The "e" symbol is not used in Received but in American it means "ay" as in "bayed" so that symbol could confuse some folks. So even IPA seems to have variations according to the language used. --Blainster 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Seeker02421 -- You developed most of that material at great length in article Iaoue, so why are you now adding it here also? It's not really appropriate to include basically the same material here, also at Iaoue, also at KJV-Only Movement, etc. etc. Try to decide what's the best location for it, and only include abbreviated references at other locations. AnonMoos 19:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Seeker02421, please don't unnecessarily duplicate material between here and Iaoue - AnonMoos 17:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Section 2 [The Scholarly Reconstructed pronunciation "יַהְוֶה" ( i.e. Yahweh )]
and
Sub-section 2.1 [Scholarly sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found] now work together as a team to present evidence that"Yahweh" has been derived from "Iaoue" , however it was only on November 12, 2004 that IZAK [who works for Wikipedia] first imported most of the text that is now in [Scholarly sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found] into the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton.
IZAK imported it from Wikipedia "Limbo" where some unwanted Wikipedia Articles end up.
The following day November 13, 2004, Gadykozma [a Wikipedia moderator] moved the above mentioned text from the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton into Talk:Tetragrammaton.
16:44, 13 November 2004 Gadykozma (Material from Reconstructing...) Gadykozma moved the text below into Talk:Tetragrammaton.
>>>
Scholarly Sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found
The vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton shown below:
"יַהְוֶה" started to appear in scholarly sources in the 19th century, or possibly earlier:
"יַהְוֶה" was not the only vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton that appeared in scholarly sources in the 19th century, but gradually it became accepted as the best reconstruction of the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton.
Smith's " A Dictionary of the Bible" 3 [published in 1863] notes that Wilhelm Gesenius, who is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars, 4 punctuated YHWH as "יַהְוֶה". Wilhelm Gesenius wrote a Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament which was first translated into English in 1824. 5. In 1863, Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible" does not consider "יַהְוֶה" to be the best vowelised Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton, of which it is aware of.
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown and S.R. Driver and C.A. Briggs shows "יַהְוֶה" under the heading "יהוה"
"יַהְוֶה" is found in the online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906, under the article: "NAMES OF GOD" and under the article sub heading: "YHWH".6 The Jewish Encylopedia recognizes that "יַהְוֶה" is spelled "Yahweh" in English, but "יַהְוֶה" is only one of two vowelized Hebrew spellings, that they believe might have been the original pronunciation of YHWH.
</nowiki>
end removed text
>>>
On November 13, 2004 , after moving the text, Gadykozma wrote in Talk: Tetragrammaton:
>>>
Material from Reconstructing...
I removed the text (see below), which was imported from Reconstructing the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton for the following reasons:
I guess this text could be useful for a specialized page on the Tetragrammaton, but I'm not sure Wikipedia is sufficiently staffed to write a page which is both scientific and POV-problematic on this topic. Gady 16:44, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
>>>
On December 11, 2004 Zappaz [possibly a Wikipedia moderator ???] recommended this same text be moved back to the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton
>>>
>>>
On December 11, 2004 Zappaz moved the text back into the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaon where it has remained.
16:13, 11 December 2004 Zappaz (→Alternative names - moved text from Names of God in Judaism)
While the present section #2 was not effected by what occurred in November and December of 2004, yet is part of a larger issue that Wikipedia has previously had with a large amount of information being added to the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton, to deal with the "Iaoue/Yahweh" issue.
In as much as on December 11, 2004 Wikipedia previously allowed this large amount of new information to be added to the Wikipedia Article: Tetragrammaton [to deal with the "Iaoue/Yahweh" issue], it is my opinion that my latest edits to Section 2 of the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton should remain where they are.
Seeker02421 00:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I really can't very easily follow what you've written above, but I do know that if you try to edit the Tetragrammaton article you get a message "This page is 42 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size." -- and that detailed inforation about Iaoue belongs at article Iaoue, not here. AnonMoos 20:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I added further information to the Hebrew Tetragrammaton spelling image, and increased its size. AnonMoos 20:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Why it does not have the meaning of "Yeshua Hanatzri Vemelech Hayehudim" mentioned? Was this article written by Jehova people? - unsigned comment by IP 84.240.42.28
I deleted this sentence:
Not least because I've done a little searching in the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch, and I come up with something more like 1,819 occurrences. But even if it were true, it would be very doubtfully relevant. AnonMoos 02:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
For ignorami, such as myself, who happen accross such a page as this, perhaps the structure should be changed because of possible... eh, problems which may arise in the current format. For instance, a foolish reverend, such as myself, who wishes to hold other faiths other than his own in good terms might be perusing such an article as this and start reading from the top, as I, for one, am rather used to doing. Now, this revered person, out of pure curiousity, happens accross the pronounciation key, and again, from said curiousity, attempts to pronounce it. Now we find ourselves at a problem, as this person who holds other religions in the utmost respect has now, unwittingly desecrated the holy name of God. Because of said reason, I think that it is in the best interest for the whole wikipedia community to perhaps explain what the Tetragrammaton is before the pronounciation key; that is all. --Lucretius Julius Impavide, 10 January 2006
I'm bewildered why searches for the Levantine deity Yahweh are redirected to a discussion of how His name is pronounced. Shouldn't there be a separate article under "Yahweh" containing information about Jewish and other Near-Eastern cults of Yahweh, His relation to El, the discoveries at Ugarit, Mark Smith's work etc etc? Could someone more knowledgable please delete the redirect and create a stub at least?
YHWH occurs more often than any other word in the old testament. The following computer software is used to prove this fact. http://www.chooselife.org.au/dean/ECC.htm Englishmans Contextual Concordance] -- unsigned comment by Dmonty 21:01, 4 February 2006
consider this... the new testament has ZERO occurance while the OT has YHWH more times than any other name, title or personal designation combined... when you find a dollarbill without silk thread what does that imply? Jiohdi 20:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The tetragrammaton was the "distinctive name of the God of Israel" (or of the Israelites) in the same sense that Chemosh was the god of the Ammonites, Milcom was the god of the Moabites, Qaws was the god of the Edomites, Moloch was the god of the Phoenicians, etc. etc. AnonMoos 18:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It's a fact that the "New World Translation" of the Bible replaces attested Greek kurios with "Jehovah" in its English version of the New Testament. AnonMoos 11:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
According to the Roman numerals article, IV was short for both Jove and YHWH. And that got me to thinking that the words "Jove" and "Jehova" were very similar, but any reason for the similarity is not addressed in that article or in this. Is there a connection between the two words or is it merely a striking coincidence? 24.199.113.113 21:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
One should not give so much as an ounce of credibility to the reconstructed 'Proto Indo-European language' and its so-called 'roots'. I have never seen so much hype concerning a hypothetical language the existence of which cannot be ascertained by any hard evidence, so why are the linguists so certain? In fact, each of these purported roots is far more of a conjecture than any of the hypothesized vocalizations of YHWH, and even there the much-touted (improbably bisyllabic) YAHWEH vocalization has been hailed by neo-scholars as a metaphysical truth, though it has been rightly assailed and questioned by many. As an example, you mentioned that the Roman name for Jupiter, i.e. Jove or IOVE/IOVIS, is in fact derived from the 'proto-Indo-European root' *Deiwos or *Dyeus. How so? There are words in Latin obviously derived from a root along those lines, i.e. DEUS (God) and DIVUS (deified), which is etymologically related to Latin DIES (Day), and similar to the Greek God ZEUS. But the etymology of JOVE is not so obvious, as the Indo-European scholars are also quick to imply that Jove's wife, JUNO, has a name derived from a different 'proto-Indo-European root' *Yeu, vital force, related to the word 'youth'. Furthermore, it will not escape the discerning eye that the full Latin name of IUPPITER, is of similar form to the Greek god, related to Zeus, called IAPETUS. It's interesting that Iapetus does not retain the initial consonant found in Zeus, just like Iuppiter does not retain the initial consonant found in Deus. Concerning YHWH in Hebrew, it most likely based on the Hebrew root havah, which is an archaic form of hayah, which in the present tense signify 'to be'. Both of these roots, if used in the past and future tenses and followed by the inseparable preposition 'L' , are related to the word 'have', i.e. possession. Havah is a very ancient root, and its similarity to the words for 'have' in various European languages is obvious. Naturally, the Indo-European scholars will find a way to write it off as coincidence or conveniently tie it to some separate "proto-Semitic root" which has yet to be found. Hopefully, the field of pro-linguistics will be taken over by people who have a keen understanding of both families of languages, who will not be so quick to come up with non-existent proto-roots without a shred of hard evidence. ---JB
If the Jewish position really is that the name of G-d is ineffable, i.e. unpronouncable, wouldn't that mean that it is not intended to have any vowels? That way no one would be able to pronounce it--it truly would be ineffible. This would necessitate the Jews borrowing vowels from some other word to be able to pronounce this one, and obviously they would borrow either from Adonai or Elohim or both, sometimes one, sometimes the other.
I made an article just on Q're perpetuum, with an accompanying image... AnonMoos 17:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
If you're not familiar with historical phonology and the history of the pronunciation of ancient Greek and/or Hebrew, then please don't try to fake it. Claiming that Greek omicron-upsilon couldn't be a transcription of a Hebrew [w] consonant is pretty much linguistic nonsense... AnonMoos 04:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed this article from Category:Wikipedia articles with off-topic sections because it is unclear which section(s) this refers to. If anyone notices anything off-topic, please leave a note to that effect, or simply move the offending material to an on-topic article. Thanks! -- Beland 23:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what this POV fork edit war is all about but I moved its talk page to Talk:Tetragrammaton/Transcribing the tetragrammaton. I don't care what happens to it but it was at Archive:Talk:Transcribing the tetragrammaton which isn't the proper place for it. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
has anyone heard of this? i'm not a jehovah's witness and i found this website by chance. it's from a jehovah's witness pursuit of truth and as a believer of god and the historicity of god i am fascinated by the tetragammaton. what i want to say is this: i came to the same conclusion as he did and when i found his work, i was in awe of the coincidence. if anyone is interested this is the site. http://www.iouo.de/
do you people really think this is the most important thing to be getting upset about? about a dare I say it a 'name'
Somebody put a merge template suggesting merging Jehovah into the relevant section of this article.
As chaotic as this has been, I have to wonder if that's wise. Still, I think the majority of the Jehovah article can be merged here, with a minimum of a redirect from Jehovah. On the other hand, I have to wonder if there might be more content to Jehovah than just the Tetragrammaton. --Joe Sewell 20:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Seeker, please put the material which is more relevant to the Iaoue article than to this article in the Iaoue article, and not into this article. If you leave it up to me to make the transfer, then you're probably not going to be happy with how I'll do it. AnonMoos 01:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the group that has done more to make the world aware of this subject than anyone else have mention in this article? I am bringing it up here to avoid edit disputes. There was a section at one time and an external link but has been removed for some reason. George 13:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Salaam,
I'm removing the rubbish about how the "Ya" (O) in "Ya Allah" is derivative of the YH (Yah) of YHWH (Yahweh).
The Qur'an (in its original Arabic) also uses:
Ya Musa = O Moses = O Moshe Ya Da`uud = O David = O Dovid Ya Haroon = O Aaron = O Aharon
And so on, and so forth. Ya means O (Oh), it does not find its root in the Tetragrammaton since Moshe, Dovid, Aharon etc. are humans, they are in no way associated with Almighty God.
Let me be crystal clear: "Ya Musa" (O Moses) does not MEAN OR IMPLY "Lord Moses". This implication is without basis, it's nothing but heresay and isn't accepted by anyone with a shred of Semitic knowledge or dignity.
No god but GOD, He alone is GOD, He has no partners or associations. GOD be glorified.
This section was highly dubious, and rather inappropriately prescriptive when it said that Kurios "should" be translated into English as Yahweh. As a simple matter of historical fact, no one but the JW's has consistently and thoroughly done so (and they use "Jehovah", not "Yahweh"). Furthermore, translating Old Testament YHWH into Greek as Kurios was a standard Jewish practice dating at least to the Septuagint (150 years before Jesus was born), and the New Testament isn't particularly special in this respect. AnonMoos 00:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
I've seen several article about God's name. This one and Jehovah are labelled "NPOV", but not Yahweh (which should be labelled to, cause it tells : "this form, Yahweh, as the correct one"). Also there is another called Iahoue which could be integrated to Yahweh.
I suggest to turn them all into a main article (Tetragrammaton) and a specialized article for the pronunciation problem, which exposes arguments and origins for Yehowah (also Jehovah, Iehovah, etc.) and Yahweh forms. What's your opinion about it ? Ayadho (From the french Wikipedia)
Dear Adminster, you're unlikely to impress anyone very much, as long as your main "contributions" consist entirely of deleting large sections of the article. If you have specific objections, then why not discuss them here first before you start trying major surgery? AnonMoos 09:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I decided to enter these comments in case someone else is wondering the same thing:
When I first read this article, I thought "Why aren't they using the word 'transliterate' instead of 'transcribe' throughout the page?"
I did so, because the common understanding I have of these words when applied to copying (writing) a text are:
1) Transcribe = To copy what you see using the same characters; get it as close as possible so as to pass along the same information. Similar to those who 'transcribe spoken words' ('dictation') but in a visual sense instead.
2) Transliteration = Copying words/letters from one language into another; esp. when the two languages have a completely different character set, but also attempting to reprodcue the original language's sounds using the target language's characters (though additional symbols may be required to accurately do so).
If such definitions (esp. #1) were employed, you can see why I immediately felt changes were necessary here; that putting a Hebrew word into Greek, Latin or whatever other language/alphabet should be 'transliteration'. Yet, after reading Wikipedia's articles on these two words, Transliteration and
Transcription, it seems there's much more overlap between the two than I'd hoped for. As a matter of fact, each article at times appears to be conflicted with itself over its definition! I still believe my first (literary) instincts are correct concerning their usage, however reading the articles as they are at present left me so confused, I'm going to defer to a more knowledgable editor.
This article has been worked up well, and mainly discusses why some scholars feel the name should be included in the NT. Anyone care to join in? George 13:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Is the answer to the question people keep so simple many over-look it? personally i think that YAHWEH is at least close to the correct pronunciation of GOD's name. not because of what the scholars say, its because i can breathe. GOD is the GOD of life, and how do we stay alive, we have to BREATHE! so as a reminder of who he is, for those who will take the time and listen, GOD has put his name into breathing itself. take a nice, calm deep breath, what does it sound like? yah.....weh......can anyone else besides me hear it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsv (talk • contribs) 04:52, 20 July 2006 UTC
And that is the basis for this validation? I've heard this argued before and though it may have personal meaning, it is no basis for a deduction or conclusion pertinent to the pronunciation of YHWH. You are anglicizing or Europeanizing what Israelite tribespeople of 3,000 years ago originally might have uttered phonemically. That is pure speculation - hardly a proof. Stevenmitchell 08:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I met this dude yesterday who believes that the tetragrammation could be interpreted as something derived from Yahushua (but interestingly thought the name "Jesus" is blasphemous). I was wondering if anyone who knows about this kind of interpretation of the tetragrammation as a name for a Jesus-like god could add a section on this interesting movement. Daniel 71.200.160.117 17:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any real benefit to the "Popular Culture" section? It appears to be simply a random list of minor occurences with no actual relation to the rest of the entry. Readers interested in the Tetragrammaton itself are not likely to care about any of these, and readers interested in the games/books/etc in the list aren't going to be looking here for information. The only really worthwhile part of the section is the St. Marri image, which could easily be moved elsewhere in the article. Thoughts? Dbratton 18:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The section is reproduced here in case an editor finds a point they feel is worth saving for integration into the rest of the article:
((spoiler))
Dbratton 17:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone familiar with the theory that the Tetragrammaton was never a real word but was a combination of the vowel letters which were developed by Hebrew to make reading & writing more "accessible" to the masses? And that these vowel letters symbolized the power of language as inspired by God? I thought this was a fairly well-respected theory, I know I've read about it in a couple of books about the Hebrew language. I at least expected to find a section on this in the article, but everyone seems to be too worried about the putative "correct pronunciation". Not that I'm saying there isn't one; I wouldn't know, but this article is written under the presumption that there is one.
First, I have come across the term "Mater lectionis", although I hardly see how that is the only "correct term", even in English discourse. Second, the theory I refer to does not necessarily assume that the Hebrews were more literate than any other people; it could be that the Hebrews themselves merely became more literate than they otherwise would have been after the development of vowel letters/matres lectionis, and recognized this. Third, I am perfectly aware of the rule that every syllable must begin with a consonant (even if that consonant, i.e. aleph, merely symbolises the absence of any consonantal sound), and that the yodh and waw, assuming the Tetragrammaton is a word, could not therefore function as symbols of a vowel sound. However, I think all of your arguments except the fourth entirely miss the point of the theory. And why is "serious etymological speculation" the be-all and end-all? - etymology is the study of the origins of words. I no longer have access to the book I read about this in, I don't even necessarily think it's right. But it's notable, it's been published, and I think there ought to be an entry on it here. (Sorry, I forgot to sign my first comment.)GSTQ 23:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Anyone here who has issues with User:AnonMoos please note them.
I believe AnonMoos may be causing problems on Wikipedia. His actions are extreme to say the least. Just take a look at what he's been doing to the Flower of Life article. Multiple times he has eliminated a large amount of relevant information by completely reverting the changes I'd made to the article on the Flower of Life. To give you an idea of how extreme this is, please see a snapshot of before and after I contributed to the article. Any normal person would conclude that I contributed a great deal of useful information describing the subject. He simply erased it, and did so on the basis of his biased opinion towards the beliefs (which he called "New Age gobbledegook" and "Jargon") presented in the article. It is an article about a symbol which is considered sacred to people from various religious backgrounds, including Christian, Jew, Egyptian, and others from all over the world and throughout history for at least six millenia. What I did was to present the facts that these people held such beliefs in regard to the symbol. I even cited literally over 100 sources. His erasing this was comparable to if he had gone to the article on the Star of David and deleted any information on beliefs associated with the symbol. Ridiculous.
Now I happened upon AnonMoos causing even more problems. I contributed some important information to this article on the Tetragrammaton, amazed that it wasn't even mentioned to begin with. The Tetragrammaton is spoken of by the Rosicrucians. This article does not even mention this, in spite of the Rosicrucians being a notable ancient and current group of people. I contributed this information to the article and even cited my source; a reliable one at that. AnonMoos once again deleted my contributions by reverting the article.
I've also noticed that AnonMoos may have been causing other problems here with excessive reverting of work done on the Tetragrammaton article. That was my impression anyway.
Could someone please express some consensus here that AnonMoos is in the wrong? Is there something we can do about this? I sincerely believe that he is taking away from Wikipedia and in my opinion should be banned. --sloth_monkey 06:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe instead of arguing about what to and what not to include in one article and still keep it reasonably small, this article should be turned into a category, so that a neutral summary not favoring any ideas can be placed at the beginning of the category, and all roots of the article be referred through Category:Tetragrammaton. Austinian 22:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
When did the practice of not saying YHWH aloud begin? The fact belongs in this article and I couldn't find it. Did I just miss it? Jonathan Tweet 15:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a content dispute between User:AnonMoos and myself regarding whether the word "Adonai" is grammatically singular or plural. User:AnonMoos insists it is plural but provides no evidence for this beyond his own original research on the subject to support his claim. --User:Karimarie 22:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
This discussion has been moved from User talk:Karimarie and User talk:AnonMoos. Commentary is requested. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 22:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
אדון | Singular | Plural |
Absolute state | Adon | Adonim |
Construct state | Adon | Adonei |
with 1st.sg. suffix | Adoni | Adonai |
with 2nd.sg.masc. suffix | Adonkha | Adoneykha |
with 2nd.sg.fem. suffix | Adonekh | Adonayikh |
with 3rd.sg.masc. suffix | Adono | Adonaw |
with 3rd.sg.fem. suffix | Adonah | Adoneyha |
with 1st.pl. suffix | Adonenu | Adoneynu |
with 2nd.pl.masc. suffix | Adonkhem | Adoneykhem |
with 2nd.pl.fem. suffix | Adonkhen | Adoneykhen |
with 3rd.pl.masc. suffix | Adonam | Adoneyhem |
with 3rd.pl.fem. suffix | Adonan | Adoneyhen |
Allow me to try to clarify: AnonMoos is right that A––nai literally means "my Lords." However, 99% of the instances of "A––nai" in the Bible that refer to God are given singular verbs and adjectives, so the translation "my Lord" is most appropriate. If you don't believe me, the use of A––nai is common in the book of Psalms, so just do a search of it in Hebrew to be convinced. The same applies to E–––him; it literally means "Gods," but in 99% of cases is treated as singular (for example, "vayo'mer E–––him" in Genesis 1:3 et al.) so is best translated as "God." Note that both Names are also used in the Bible as common nouns for human "masters" and "judges" respectively, and in these cases the words are treated as plural. For an exception to the use of singular for God, see Samuel I 4:8, and note that the plural there was used by Philistine idolators who were accustomed to polytheism. Also note that "E–––him" is commonly modified by plural adjectives in Hebrew (eg. "E–––him chayyim"), but this is true of other singular nouns with an –im suffix; that deserves a separate discussion. In any event, I think the Tetragrammaton article captures the singular/plural paradox well later in the article by translating A––nai and E–––him as "my Lord(s)" and "my God(s)." I don't know the reason for the paradox, but I suspect it has something to do with God's simultaneously infinite and unified nature. If you disagree with any of this, please respond. Best of health! —Rafi Neal 16:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it takes singular agreement when referring to the God of Israel (the same as for Elohim, as discussed in the grammar section of the Elohim article), but it's still basically morphologically plural; both a literalistic translation and a contextual equivalence translation are given in the article. AnonMoos 22:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought this was a pretty standard teaching, (the first part I'm going to say at least) but I guess not. Here goes.
The origional Torah was believed to be written with all vowels intact. It was thus kept and guarded by the Priests of the Temple as precious as many believed the Hebrew Language itself to hold certian magickal powers, particularlly the word Tetragrammaton, which was only to be spoken within the Temple, and only within it's deepest layer, the holy of holies. Eventually, as time passed, Government became more powerfull than the Temple, and the people of Israel decided that they wanted a national language. I forget exactally, but I believe it was mostly Aramaic that was spoken around that time, but I might be off on my timeline. Anyway, the priests were horrified, because their belief was that others would learn to invoke these names, and thus use their powers for their own desire. Thus all vowels were removed from the alphabet. For this reason, punctuation marks are found only in Scripture, and not in Yiddish (common Hebrew). I believe they may have been added much later though... YHVH, was therefore two words. One was a name. Another was a form of power. The only difference was the vowels. For example, if we were to take the vowel Maoch (sp?) and put it in it's proper place - obviously not including the other vowels for the above mention reasons (further discussed below) then it would read: YHMVH. Whereas Yahway, by whatever way you want to spell the pronounciation, would read with different vowels. Thus, we have two different things. Tetragrammaton, as we now call it, was a formulae, a pattern, a mathamatical equation, whatever you would percieve it as. In itself it is not a power or ability, it is simply a word which represents the ultimate controll (whether percieved as a pattern, formulae, or word invoked using gemmetria) through which all manifested action takes place. Having the power to invoke this name, the "Ultimate Name," would, according to Legend, give you power over the entire universe. The reality is, sadly, according to some, that it gives you control over the power you have, or in most case for those who obtain it without preperation, lack thereof. Thus it was legended that attempting to invoke the ultimate 'name', with it's true spelling, sought by scholars and mages for thousands of years through mathamatical and gemoetric methods (called gemmetria), would result in insanity, shattering the mind with thoughts of the ultimate understandings of the universe. Interestingly, some people with Schizophrenia are often diagnosised, as a precursor to symptoms to begin by saying that they believe they are starting to understand the mysteries of the universe, that there is a universal code, that everything somehow connects... but over time they become confused with reality, and stop looking outside themselves for the answers and look inside themselves, forsaking reality, thus begin dellusions and, in most cases, even hallucinations, most commonly of sight and sound (an interesting corrolation if you study the letters in question of the word and their values in Hebrew Gemmetria) to support a reality that no longer matches reality. Other interesting parrallels found in people whose dellusions begin in this way is that they somehow know information which is untrue, but represents a true reality. (For example, one Mental Patient once stated of a Hospital that the walls and pipes were filled with mold, and everyone was getting sick. It was eventually discovered that the lead based paint, and contamination in the pipes were making people sick, and that without aquiring any knowledge the patient knew this... However, she created an internal, irrational justification that there was mold, which was not present.) Then of course lies the theory that Schizophrenia is not one illness, but many, with different root causes, but similar outward effects. Since Schizophrenia is by medical definition not technically diagnosiable by anything but symptoms (cannot be scanned for in the brain, tested in the blood, etc) one can say this is a valid theory which can apparently be neither proven nor disproven my modern medical standards, only by belief. However, mental patients without both medication and psychological treatment will eventually "relapse" into a pattern of dellusional thinking which represents their last relapse, as if they were part-way into a puzzle, and can never get past that one peice. Many resist taking medication, trying to reclaim a reality saying this time they will get it right, but this appears to be impossible. Regardless, many concepts found in Gemmetria (a mathamatical system which parrelles the concepts of the meaning of hebrew words - i.e. the mathamatical value for mother, added to the mathamatical value for child = the mathamatical value for child, thus mother + father = child) gives us a method for understanding Hebrew. Perhaps the solution of life's ultimate riddle of the Universe is the solution of finding those letters, and perhaps it is best left alone. And perhaps people assume Jehovah, or Yahwey, is all powerfull while in fact Tetragrammaton is all powerfull, being that Tetragrammaton (being the manifestation of all actions, spiritual and physical laws) is all things which happen. Would it be appropriate (if not interesting) to consider it from this angle, both of the Kabbalistic study of Gemmetria, and of the correlations between Yahwey and Tetragrammaton as a person, and what we would now call a scientific law? Also, the mental illness and it's parrallels to Gemmetria are interesting, but I guess mostly in the context of the Legendary madness assoicated with obtaining T's power without being at at least Magus level (by the Order of the Golden Dawn's Standard of Spiritual awareness and control, since that seems to be the best standard I can think of). I know I spelled most of that wrong, sorry.
- P.A. / 56
When Moses asked god about his personal name, god answered him ..[ I am (who) what I am .....אהיה אשׁיר אהיה] …. Aheh asher Aheh ...NOT YHWH . יהוה…read ..Exodus 3:14… This Name ..[ I am (who) what I am….... אהיה אשׁיר אהיה]...…NOT… [YHWH …יהוה ]….should be Remember by Israelites Generation by Generation [דּר לדר ]..and forever [לְעלָם] Exodus 3:15….it means that [YHWH …יהוה ] is just a generic name for lord…not personal ONE, same as El, Elshadi, and Elohim.
……and why his personal name is not lord [ Jealous ] ?.......Exodus 34: 14 Do not worship any other god, for the [LORD, whose name is Jealous], is a jealous God…
YHWH is …. יהוה ....I am is Aheh אהיה …..where as the word …what / who ….in Hebrew is Asher אשׁיר.. …. I am what (who) I am… אהיה אשׁיר אהיה … Aheh asher Aheh Exodus 3:14.
The Question is … HOW the word [YHWH …יהוה ]….. is .. extracted or taken from the phrase …. I am what I am… ...אהיה אשׁיר אהיה … and how it became the personal name of the lord …not I am what I am ? ….where.. the word [YHWH …יהוה]..come from?
And if we supposed that YHWH is Personal name..we read ..Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty בְּאֵל שַׁדָי , but by my name [YHWH יהוה]was I not known to them.
So it is either Exodus 6:3 is an Insertion ( which means YHWH is just a generic name Not a personal name of the god.. that if the personal name .. not.. I am what I am )……Or …{Genesis 22:14, Genesis 26,and Genesis 28}..are insertions in which means ( No story of Isaac to be sacrificed in mount of YHWH will provide” יְהוה ירָאֶה Gen 22:14 as Abrham himself gave it that name, ….No Alter being built by Isaac named after YHWH in Gen 26:25, …...and No Vision of Jacob seeing YHWH Gen 28 and Manifested to him as YHWH Elohim of Abraham, Isaac..etc..etc..and gave him the Promise….this Problem is for you to solve.
217.44.222.210 09:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all, אהיה is conventionally vocalized "Ehyeh", not "Aheh"[sic]. "Asher" also has a short vowel in its second syllable, and so is spelled אשׁר , and not אשׁיר . You also appear to have little knowledge of Semitic morphological derivation by consonantal roots. AnonMoos 13:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all ...yes i did a spelling mistake.. Thank you for correcting me....
Secondly I am a Semite....But THEN....that is not the problem....the problem is not in my "OWN" spelling mistake ..coz people do mistakes ,same as the uncorrect "Aheh" instead of Ahieh or Ehyeh...that is how you you write it to English...alphabets...to give it "a relatively Close".. right vocalized Pronounciation.. Though..ironically it may be... there is NO agreement of the right pronunciation of the word YHWH . יהוה...
BUT ..The issue ..Is....What is the right personal Name of god ..YHWH …י הוה ..or Iam what I am.......… אהיה אשׁר אהיה ..?
Thank you again for correcting my spelling, and the close english pronouciation, But please give me the answer for this question...since you have not answer the question yet...81.152.236.210 15:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If you study Hebrew grammar, especially morphological verb derivation by means of Triconsonantal roots, then you'll understand why Ehyeh and Yahweh are closer in terms of Hebrew than they seem to be in English. AnonMoos 16:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Anon
When Moses asked god about his personal name', god answered him ..[ I am (who) what I am .......אהיה אשׁר אהיה] …. Ahieh asher Ahieh ...NOT YHWH . יהוה…read ..Exodus 3:14… This Name ..[ I am (who) what I am…... אהיה אשׁר אהיה]…NOT… [YHWH …יהוה ]….should be Remember by Israelites Generation by Generation [דּר לדר ]..and forever [לְעלָם] Exodus 3:15….it means that [YHWH …יהוה ] is just a generic name for lord…not personal ONE, same as El, Elshadi, and Elohim.
''''The Question is where the word [YHWH …יהוה ]come from or how was it extracted from ....Ahieh Asher Ahieh....אהיה אשׁר אהיה ......what is god name..?...why not lord Jealous Exodus 34:14 ..?''''
And why this name .....אהיה אשׁר אהיה...never been mentioned again..in the bible..except in greek and by Paul 1Cor 15:10 .which close to I am what I am..knowing the fact..that...it. should be Remember by Israelites Generation by Generation [דּר לדר ]..and forever [לְעלָם] Exodus 3:15...?
Show me how is it drived..and stop the duck and dive tack -ticks..please...dont give me a whole web site to read...but make brief and simple
You have not answerd the question yet. Thanks. 81.152.236.210 16:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all
I appologize if it became like challenge..it is not suppose to be...but it is just a question.
Thanks.81.152.236.210 17:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If martin Luther placed the J in the name Jehovah then who put it into the name Jesus? and why is the name Michael translated Migel in Spanish? The names in the Bible have meanings. Jehovah means "he causes to become" Jesus (Iesus, Yeheshuah) means "Jehovah (Yahweh, YHWH, JHVH) is salvation" Kljenni 02:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
so then you agree that Jehovah and Jesus are acceptable spellings and pronunciations.Kljenni 12:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Here are a few names from the Bible and their meanings
Ad·o·ni′jah Jehovah Is Lord.
A·bi′jah My Father Is Jehovah.
Je·ho·ad′din Jehovah Is Pleasure.
Je·ho′a·haz May Jehovah Take Hold; Jehovah Has Taken Hold.
Je·hosh′a·phat Jehovah Is Judge.
Je·hosh′e·ba Jehovah Is Plenty.
Je′sus Lat. form of the Gr. I·e·sous′, which corresponds to the Heb. Ye·shu′a‛ or Yehoh·shu′a‛ and means “Jehovah Is Salvation”.
Josh′u·a shortened form of Jehoshua, meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”.
Je·hosh′u·a Jehovah Is Salvation.
Jah a poetic shortened form of Jehovah,
I·sa′iah Salvation of Jehovah.
John English equivalent of Jehohanan, meaning “Jehovah Has Shown Favor; Jehovah Has Been Gracious”.
It is simple and you dont need to pull out your PhD for this, the J in Jehovah is there because the other J's are Kljenni 00:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
AnonMoos please explain these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#Transcription_in_other_languages Kljenni 04:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the Jews left off pronouncing Gods name early on in history probably due to superstition, and because the Hebrew Language did not have vowel points until after 50ad
the pronunciation was lost. why would anyone argue against saying Gods name out loud? or the proper pronunciation of it? most words have changed for varying reasons,lazy speech habits are one major cause in our own time. How would you say in Biblical Hebrew "he causes to become"? that is the meaning of the name. Kljenni 12:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen
Hi to you all !
I dont see any problem about jesus name..or the right pronunciation of the word YHWH . יהוה....these are all together a total different and Minor problems.
The subject ..or Real Problem is ..is [YHWH …יהוה]…itself the true personal name of god...?....The Reason why...and I am deeply deeply sorry if I am making my self assertive/annoying in regard to this ( I think most important issue for me)..is because when Mosses asked God about his personal name, so to inform the Israelites about god's name ..if Israelites ask Moses. Then God ..said..tell them .. I am what I am…אהיה אשׁר אהיה…exodus 3:14-15..NOT [YHWH …יהוה]…
This Name ..[ I am (who) what I am…... אהיה אשׁר אהיה]…NOT… [YHWH …יהוה ]….should be Remember by Israelites Generation by Generation [דּר לדר ]..and forever [לְעלָם] Exodus 3:15.
And how the word [YHWH …יהוה]….. is .. extracted or taken from the phrase …. I am what I am…אהיה אשׁר אהיה… please Show me the Method..and make it brief and simple.
Once again My deep Apologies to you Ladies and Gentelmen
cheers and Regards.81.153.68.103 14:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I am proposing a separate article instead of having Jehovah redirect here. Ice9Tea 12:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia Article Yahweh presents evidence that since at least 1604 A.D. there has been strong criticism of both Hebrew spellings of the Tetragrammaton [ e.g. יְהֹוָה and יֱהֹוִה ] that are found in the 1525 A.D. Ben Chayyim Hebrew text that underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible.
Nevertheless in 2007 A.D., there are still persons who strongly believe that God's name is actually Yehovah (a.k.a. Jehovah).
In my opinion the separate Wikipedia article:Jehovah should be resurrected.
It is very easy to do.
Seeker02421 10:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Favor An article about Jehovah the God would be useful and encyclopedic. Mention of the meanings and transliterations would be appropriate but detailed discussion of that topic would be better off here or even in another sub article. George 18:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on over at Talk:Jehovah which started due to an edit war over whether or not to redirect that title to Yahweh. I have opened up the scope of discussion to include Jehovah, Yahweh and Tetragrammaton. Please express your opinion in the discussion. --Richard 15:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This artical seems a bit confusing and does not site refrences so i added the clean up banner
Baptist is the logical standpoint. The catholics ad the word of the pope and the books inbeteen the old and new testament. The names of which escape my mind at the present moment. Methodist ignore the spirit and preach in toungs, which helps noone understand the Bible. i cover on ly baptism methodism and catholoscism i do not have time presently to place other beliefs in for i need to get to bed -- A Warior for Christ, Samuel Robbins<>< —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.52.201 (talk) 02:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
What the heck does Protestantism vs. Catholicism have to do with the Tetragrammaton??? Absolutely nothing whatever, as far as I can see... AnonMoos (talk) 03:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this can be placed within the page somewhere? However, I do see the point that pronunciation of the Name is more related to the article YHWH. Thoughts? --AustinWellbelove (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it'd be appropriate to add a section on the transliteration of the Tetragrammaton in to english. What do others think? 82.203.3.3 (talk) 09:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I was just thinking that a sentance or two should be included about the name Yahweh, since it is this name that most scholars beleive is the accurate pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton. Alleichem (talk) 09:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
In the article it says that "The Tetragrammaton is the ancient Jewish name for God". Shouldn't this be the ancient "Hebrew" name or am I getting this wrong? Peace. Alleichem (talk) 12:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. What i meant is that, you can have a Propper name as in you might call a cat "Fluffy". Or a general name such as calling a fluffy thing with whiskers a "cat". yod-he-waw-he could be argued to be the "Propper name" of the Jewish God. --AustinWellbelove (talk) 15:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the data found here with the times the name appears could be incorrect, no reference or source etc. Perhaps a check on this? Bible version etc.? Can anyone verify this? --AustinWellbelove (talk) 18:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I really don't have much patience with many of the "special" or "unique" JW interpretations in this area (see User_talk:Ice9Tea#Tetragrammaton etc. etc.), but the basic count of the occurrences of YHWH in the text of the Hebrew old Testament seems to be reliable -- I get exactly the same number when searching the scholarly e-text of the BHS (see above), which is completely independent of anything JW... AnonMoos (talk) 22:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Would any merging be useful? Anthony Appleyard 08:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The 'tetragrammaton' is a word that has been coined, and used to refer to the fact that the hebrew form for the personal name of God i.e. יהוה is comprised of four letters, hence, the tetra-(Greek for 'four')-grammaton (gram′ma = Greek for 'letter'). Tetragrammaton is not the name of Jehovah/Yahweh, nor is it, as some wiki editors seem to believe, another of God's names. If tetragrammaton is one of God's names, how many worshipers pray to Tetragrammaton? How many pray, "Dear God, Almighty God Tetragrammaton, please forgive me ...."? That would be ridiculous. So, lets have a full article on the tetragrammaton in its own right. Which came first, the tetragrammaton, or 'Yahweh' or 'Jehovah'? We all know that the latter two are translations/interpretations of the tetragrammaton, so let's start with the basics, before we start 'reverse engineering' in the wrong direction! Even the chart on this(?)discussion page is ridiculous. It is not 'translations of Jehovah/Yahweh into foreign languages' (e.g. in Italy they write Geova! Well, that's pretty obvious, and not particularly informative! However, in reality, many foreign (non-English) translations of the original bible texts have rendered יהוה into a near equivalent in their own languages. The fact that they have rendered the name of god in similar but slightly different ways is significant. They are not transliterating from the English, but are using their own scholarship to render the hebrew letters into a recognisable form in their own languages. German is a specific example of this, where German Hebrew scholars, and even Hebrew German scholars have contributed in an outstanding way to our, and the world's, understanding of biblical texts. I appreciate that compiling and editing reference material is no mean task, but the present situation is far from satisfactory.--87.115.4.52 (talk) 01:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
'Tetragrammaton' as a distict subject appears in all other dictionaries and encyclopedias, so why not in Wiki? The tetragrammaton is universally known. The tetragrammaton is the basis for Yahweh and Jehovah. A lot of information about this was in the original 'tetragrammaton' article which was here, but now that the data has, quite unilaterally, and thoughtlessly it seems, been lifted from here and merged all into Yahweh, systematic reading, study and research on the subject has been sorely frustrated and undermined. The tetragrammaton does not come from Yahweh, but rather, the word Yahweh comes from the Tetragrammaton. Therefore, in my view, to merge it all into one article under 'Yahweh' is illogical and a demonstration of indecent haste and questionable scholarship.
It is going to take a lot of concentrated effort to unravel the results of such misguided or naive editing to put back all the tetragrammaton information where it belongs, i.e. under 'Tetragrammaton'! I don't know the mechanics of undertaking a complete reversal of the ill-conceived merge into 'Yahweh' and, as there has doubtless been subsequent editorial updates within Yahweh, perhaps it would be unwise at this late stage to press any 'restore' buttons! However, if other editors share my views on this matter, I would gladly contribute to unpicking this present muddle by slowly lifting relevant sections from 'Yahweh' and restoring them to their proper place, i.e. here! If editors would like to share in this task, they have my full and unequivocal support! Regards, Editor62 --87.115.6.26 (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
If someone wanted to add such information to Wiki, this page 'Tetragrammaton' would seem, to me, to be the ideal place for it.
The article on Yahweh displays two pictures showing where יהוה is a feature in religious buidings, but, as that Wiki article is about 'Yahweh' rather than the tetragrammaton, it is understandable why information about the prevalence of יהוה have not been included.
The article on Jehovah is similarly an exegesis about 'Jehovah', with no mention of the 'public' use of יהוה as far as I can see.
So, please may I have your views. Where would the best place be to provide information about the public display of יהוה ? --Observer29 (talk) 10:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Rubylady,Austin and Anthony, the main contributers to this article had all agreed that the name Yahweh should be mentioned. However a user called User:LisaLiel has attempted to get rid of the two sentences included. This conduct is neither justifiable or acceptable and if it persists, the appropriate action should be taken against such [vandalism] . 72.3454.34 (talk) 16:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
David, you strike me as someone who has some religious sentiments. That being the case, I'd like to ask you to please try and have respect for Wikipedia and its rules, and stop trying to game the system by use of repeated sockpuppets. It isn't just a matter of breaking rules; it's really disrespectful to those of us who are trying to edit appropriately. There isn't one of us, I don't think, who hasn't accepted an edit (or several) that we disagree with on a personal level because this is Wikipedia, and not our personal blogs or online forums.
Please try and rein in your personal feelings and views and treat Wikipedia as it is meant to be treated. It's a great resource, and you have the ability to be an excellent editor, if only you can get your need to pursue this single minded agenda under control. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted (again) a line in this article which presents one specific POV as fact. This is regarding the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton.
Frankly, from an encyclopedic point of view, it's bad enough that this article lists the article about that pronunciation as the "main article". This should be the main article, with branches to the two different vocalizations, if necessary.
Nevertheless, I'm not aiming to change that at this point, unless I can get a consensus for it. What I do want to change is the introduction of POV into this article. There is a discussion of the different views of how this name is to be pronounced in the "main article" that's referenced at the top of this one. It is inappropriate to do an "end run" around that discussion and present one view as fact in this article. -LisaLiel (talk) 02:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Lisa's most recent edit redirecting to the main article is the most approprate solution. It prevents the potential for POV forking. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 19:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)