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Archive 1 |
A very subjective article, slim on factual content and failing to satisfy Wikipedia's requirement that articles be written in encyclopaedic style.
Misleading in definition of the term "political prisoner".
Shouldn't he be included? He exposed the Israeli nuclear program in the eighties. He is free since 2004, but is not allowed to leave the country or to speak with foreign media. He risks more charges because he violated the latter restriction, something he feels is simply one of its human rights. http://www.nonviolence.org/vanunu/ is a campaigning site for Mordechai
No. Mr. Vanunu sold nuclear secrets to a British newspaper -- he committed treason, straight up. -- Spock
I disagree. His rights are violated. His trial was not public. His arrest was on foreign soil. Evilbu 22:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
So what? There's no dispute that he was guilty of the crime of which he was convicted: he readily admits he divulged his country's secrets for money. -- Spock 00:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy and precedent seems to pretty clear on this sort of debate: Include Vanunu only if there is a significantly large group that considers him to be one. If the group is not reputable, that should be noted.Emmett5 23:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I updated the Leonard Peltier entry to be what I consider a more NPOV. I also removed the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and reverted it back to United States. Pine Ridge was where the alleged crime happened, not where/who keeps him imprisoned. He is imprisoned by the United States. Oyvind 17:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused here --- I realize that Amnesty International considered him a political prisoner, and the cited CBS News article refers to him as such, but why? The man was imprisoned for espionage, not for any political works or action. --Dcfleck 14:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, would you mind explaining on the talk page why you reverted my edit? Peltier was convicted of murder, it is a fact. Isarig 01:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
all the others in the list have been convicted of various crimes by the nation holding them however only Peltier memtioned the legal procedings therby puting unbalanced information on the page. if the reader is intrested in the specific legal background they may read it at his page.
If anybody speaks Russian, then, look, please, at the Russian version. It is considered for deletion. dima (talk) 12:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I have proposed a new Wikiproject concerning prisons here.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 22:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
From reading this article, it appears that there is no objective standard that determines who is or is not a political prisoner. Is that correct? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I've also posted a related inquiry at Category talk:Political prisoners and victims#Criteria. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Political prisoner? He went to jail for harrassing a women in HK http://legalref.judiciary.gov.hk/lrs/common/search/search_result_detail_frame.jsp?DIS=55632&QS=%28%24Matt%2CPearce%29&TP=JU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.39.84.39 (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree and have removed him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mod83 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
His removal was a mistake. I was looking at the top level criteria, that said "The list below includes examples of individuals who are considered political prisoners and are currently being held despite not having a trial or being subject to any other judicial process." Wang is actually under a different section. Still, he could use a better reference that actually calls him a political prisoner, instead of just saying that he got an unfair trial. Quigley (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
"In the Soviet Union, dubious psychiatric diagnoses were sometimes used to confine political prisoners": this U.S.-centric canard again! The same thing is done in the U.S.! The pot is calling the kettle black! I am rewriting for NPOV. --Daniel C. Boyer
Any examples of that in the US, or are you all talk? A2Kafir 02:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What about Alice Paul at Occaquan? She was definitely a political prisoner in the classic sense, and a psychiatric diagnosis was being attempted in order to portray her hunger strike as a suicidal disorder. It was U.S., it was in all the major papers of record, it was coordinated out of the U.S. Capitol Police offices, with possible collusion of President Wilson. Ondelette (talk) 06:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Actually, the total absence of American political prisoners just renders the whole page hypocritical at a glance. Alice Paul makes one example, John Brown is another famous one. More recently, Bobby Seale spent 4 years in prison for contempt of court, no convictions for any crime whatsoever, clearly a political prisoner. There are always examples of political prisoners from every country in the world, the absence of prisoners from any one country just renders the list ludicrous, and when people put up such an example and it is promptly removed, then it really makes the page fly in the face of any NPOV doctrine. 98.234.120.213 (talk) 08:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Are the cuban 5 political prisoners of the US? Really, as many of Cuba's "political prisoners" have received money from the CIA/NED/CANF/etc, I think we can term the US-imprisoned (for life in some cases) Cuban spies "political prisoners" by the same token, no? 173.3.41.6 (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
03:31, 22 December 2010 Mkativerata (talk | contribs | block) changed protection level of Political prisoner [edit=sysop] (expires 03:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)) [move=sysop] (expires 03:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)) (Edit warring / Content dispute: (will manually return to semi-protection at end of week)) (hist | change)
Per the discussion at Administrators' noticeboard this page has been fully protected. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 06:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I am commenting here in an administrative capacity, not an editorial one.* If there are objections to this, if editors feel I'm too close to this please say so now. I of course reserve the right to disagree with whomever says it, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it...
The items marked in OrangeRed are high priority, and need to be done before more substantive discussion on the other points takes place...
Aaron Brenneman (talk) 03:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
* While I personally deprecate this authoritative style of communication, I have received feedback that I should (in earlier posts to this page) have made my admin status clear. So, here it is. Blargh. I feel dirty.
I have a problem with this: 'The U.S. Senate, prompted by Maryland Democrat Ben Cardin and Mississippi Republican Roger Wicker, passed a resolution saying Khodorkovsy and Lebedev 'are prisoners who have been denied basic due process rights under international law ***FOR POLITICAL REASONS***.'" ' Where's that from? From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khodorkovsky (with my emphasis added) Perhaps we could have a list of "prisoners who have been denied basic due process rights for political reasons"? Maybe then Manning and Khodorkovsky could share a page on Wikipedia? At some point we must face the political utility of the terms themselves: "political prisoner" and "prisoner of conscience" are both terms that have immense political value and this guarantees that they WILL be misappropriated by the powerful. But if the original list was imperfect, this statement by the US Senate is equally imperfect; they have no particular insight into the reasons for Khodorkovsky's prosecution, they have no evidence that these "political reasons" exist at all. But when the powerful of the United States make the accusation, then that is sufficient. Is THAT what is meant by "A STRONG SOURCE"? Has the editorial conduct of Wikipedia been misappropriated by the powerful already? ScuzzaMan (talk) 21:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Re good faith: point taken. Mea culpa. So, can I suggest that, after the discussion about how difficult to define the terms have become, the article includes the observation that the terms under dispute are of major political advantage depending on who is using them about whom and who believes them about whom, and perhaps we could follow that with a list not only of historical figures that "everyone agrees" on, but a separate list of current, live, disputed, persons? To illustrate the observation in a most pointed, topical fashion? i.e. as examples of that very difficulty, rather than as "authoritative" inclusions? ScuzzaMan (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Scuzzaman on several points. Most obviously, since the initial introduction of the term "political prisoner" is by nature subjective--and because "official" qualification by politically motivated groups and governments is rather dubious proof of said status--it makes no sense to include some subjectively determined political prisoners, while denying others. I suggest a table that has a list of people widely regarded, in various circles, to be political prisoners. Some sort of introduction which states the very tenuous nature of the term, and stresses its utility in political discourse is absolutely essential. Then people could add political prisoners, so long as they could provide acceptable citations that show that there is some kind of consensus amongst a group somewhere that the person is a political prisoner. That sounds fair to me. That is essentially the situation that existed on this page before, except the unethical control of of certain editors narrowly limited the discourse. Cecilex (talk) 05:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
":" Well thanks for the advice. The rough draft looks good as far as I'm concerned. I'm quite happy to provide both sides of the debate. So what happens next? Does somebody go ahead and write and insert it based on that model? Should I do it? Will somebody else? Just wondering how the accountability thing goes....[[]] (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Paperwork...
Aaron Brenneman (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, I left a message about merging the two pages at the Prisoners of Conscience talk page. Its been well over a week, with no response. I'm going to go ahead and merge the two pages within the next three days unless I hear a good reason why I shouldn't at either this talk page or the Prisoner of conscience one..
Cecilex (talk) 19:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Political prisoner and Prisoner of conscience are two different concepts, although with some overlap. What means that there is little reason to merge two pages on topics that are only related, but are not synonymous. Stepopen (talk) 20:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Suggest scraping the entire thing as it stood on 8 Jan 2011 and starting again as below:
"Political Prisoner is a term used to describe prisoners who are (or were) imprisoned for the political purposes of a party, administration, monarch, person or group with more political resources and power. Political imprisonment can be accompanied by torture, absence of trial, trails in mock courts (Kangaroo Courts or Show Trials) and other abuses made unlawful by the Geneva Convention.
In general political imprisonment describes the imprisonment of people for primarily political reasons. The phrase became popular in the 20th century, although prisoners fitting the description have been imprisoned since at least the peak of the Athenian hegemony near 399BC when Socrates was imprisoned and finally poisoned.
The key concept in understanding political imprisonment is that the prisoners generally pose a political challenge to governing bodies or powerful and wealthy forces. For this reason political prisoners may not necessarily hold strong political views but their presence could pose problems for others who do. Historical examples of people imprisoned for their inconvenient political presence rather than for political activism include heirs in the line of succession, women who failed to bear heirs, women who (in more recent years) challenged the patriarchal order as adulterers, and rank and file prisoners of war.
Sometimes prisoners become political causes after questionable imprisonment for ordinary crimes or following political pressure from non-local regimes or the canvassing of popular public sentiment in mainstream media, for example the imprisonment of Schapelle Corby. Such a prisoner could be considered a political prisoner because their imprisonment is arguably the result of political pressure rather than solid evidence of crime. Sometimes law enforcement agencies are politically pressured to ensure a conviction, and when these cases become known in public media the trials generate politically charged discourse. Such a prisoner might not originally satisfy the traditional definition of a political prisoner but their cases can become politicised if the process of pursuing justice has been compromised.
Political prisoners throughout the last one and a half centuries have been typically imprisoned for holding views that clash with the political views of a nation's administrators or for having ideas that clash with the work carried out by intelligence gathering networks and surveillance agencies. Sometimes political prisoners have been imprisoned for only being related to other people who hold particular political views, either as friends or as family. The beliefs of Political Prisoners cover a wide range of views. Political Prisoners have been imprisoned for holding a diversity of beliefs including: religious beliefs (Christian, Jewish, Islamic and atheism), beliefs concerning war (pro and anti), women's suffrage, anti-apartheid beliefs, a belief in human rights in general, labourers' activism and pro-democracy activism, espionage (for spying and for refusing to spy), as well as for journalistic activities. Political activism on the part of the prisoner is not necessarily a pre-requisite to becoming a political prisoner though, as discussed in paragraphs above, because political imprisonment depends on other political forces as well.
(Followed by a chronological list of documented examples of political prisoners demonstrating a broad range of political reasons and regimes/dynasties/hegemonies/empires over at least the past 2411 years. Suggest beginning with Socrates, inclusion of imprisoned and tortured Christian saints, imprisoned heirs to thrones, examples from the Spanish inquisition and other early historical examples where contributors might be able to exercise more neutrality than when documenting current events. The Tower of London is one of the world's most famous political prisons and now a popular tourist site, political prisoners who were held there should certainly be included in the list. The list should conclude with more recent and current examples beginning with large scale political imprisonments including the Gulag, nazi concentration camps, shooting of prisoners at the Tower of London during the second world war, rule of the Khmer Rouge, Falun Gong prisoners, and well known examples from the extraordinary rendition network and Guantanamo Bay as well as examples within domestic prisons in nations that declare themselves democratic - for example the weekend detention of the anti-war protesters who wrote "NO WAR" on the Sydney Opera house.)
(Conclude with extensive footing-noting and impeccable citation.)"
In light of Mr. DeChristopher's conviction and the facts surrounding his case, I figured I'd suggest him being added to this page. Instead of just going ahead and editing the page, I felt it's better to see if there are any legitimate arguments against this by asking on the talk page first. BinaryMn (talk) 05:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Please use the "narrow" definition of political prisoners. If you use the broad one, then it would most likely a significant percentage of the prison population. --41.151.104.1 (talk) 08:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Having tried and failed to get Amnesty interested in a cause, using the information from the article on how AI define political prisoners - they refute the broad definition in the original article. See below:
"Thank you for your e-mail which has been passed on to me by my colleagues. I am sorry for the delayed reply.
Please allow us to clarify our definition of Prisoners of Conscience (POC). Individuals are regarded as POCs for the following reasons: Because of their involvement in non-violent political activities, such as taking part in community development work For belonging to a minority group that is struggling for autonomy After insisting on observing religious practices of which the state does not approve Because of their trade union activities such as taking part in strikes or demonstrations Because they wrote newspaper articles that raised the alarm about human rights violation taking place within their own countries After they refused to perform military service on grounds of conscience When they have resisted using a country’s official language Because a family member is an outspoken opponent of the government
Thus ,a s you can see , I'm afraid that ************** situation does not fall under this definition. The definition from Wikipedia is not the official one from Amnesty International. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Schapelle (talk • contribs) 15:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
The article should include only people who have been declared as political prisoners by human rights organization. Otherwise any prisoner can be claimed as political prisoner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis Napoles (talk • contribs) 22:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Geez, that would mean erasing most (if not all) of the Cubans here, right? 166.217.67.121 (talk) 02:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
You wouldn't want to skip human rights watch. I think most people feel that the Bradley Manning/Julian Assange situation has enough political motivation to qualify, as does the Tim DeChristopher case (they would not let him buy the rights to the lot he bid on and won). Whistleblowers are a separate list, unless we get reporters jailed, as we might. I'd say that ABCF and Jericho Movement should be included, since they support the MOVE 9 (the people bombed in Phiadelphia from a helicopter by the police), the Black Panthers, the Cuban 5, environmental convictions, I would add John Walker Lyndh, where the Attorney General made improper declarations, which prove political involvement (ie where the desire to seek justice has been eclipsed by a political goal of some sort - like to prove that 'we are doing our job' and 'keeping you safe'.) ( Martin | talk • contribs 06:53, 8 April 2012 (UTC))
Could somebody include a few people imprisoned for actions not compliant with the current multiculturalist sentiment prevalent among the governments of Western states without committing any other crimes or advocating violence? E.g., Ernst Zundel (sentenced for 15 months for Holocaust denial). Humanophage (talk) 21:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Some trials are motivated by the desire to entangle a person in the judicial branch, with the intention to impair the person's interactions with the executive branch, or with the public. Law enforcement is not the prospective purpose although it is later used as the justification, as the excuse. Examples of this are many of the Panther trials and the AIM trials. Anyone convicted in such a trial is a political prisoner. Anyone convicted on the basis of evidence fabricated by the government is prima facie a political prisoner, since fraudulent evidence is inconsistent with a motivation of seeking justice. ( Martin | talk • contribs 16:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC))
Here is a quote that demonstrates political (extra-legal, ok illegal) motivation, and therefore, in this case, political arrests, whether or not a trial resulted, and whether or not a conviction resulted: An FBI document released to journalist Richard LaCourse under the FOIA reveals a program which closely parallels that directed against RAM in Philadelphia (see Chapter 5). It recommends that "local police put [AIM] leaders under close scrutiny, and arrest them on every possible charge until they could no longer make bail." This quote can be found the book COINTELLPRO, whose text is online but on a blacklisted site, and the further source is footnoted there. ( Martin | talk • contribs 05:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC))
The Wiki-fascists evidently find the following citation objectionable. Though the article alleges that ALL countries have examples of political prisoners, yet when some prominent Americans allege that the victims of the politically-motivated war on drugs may be examples of political prisoners, such an example as follows cannot be cited, presumably due to irrational application of the NPOV dogma:
There's nothing irrational about it. Murderers, deserters and drug dealers are not political prisoners! -- Spock
Anyone who converts the proceeds of criminal activity (such as drug trafficking) into another form is guilty of money laundering. This is foolishness. -- User:Spock 156.34.19.206 23:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Not if such crimes are widespread and the prosecution is politically biased. For illustration, there are millions of drug users and dealers, if the police go to extraordinary measures to arrest and ensure successful prosection of one such individual because he is a political activist, he would be a political prisoner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.88.51 (talk) 14:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Are these examples really necessary? The article is not a List of Political Prisoners, but about the concept. If anything important or well-known political prisoners should be discussed in prose, putting them into context. There are of course other problems with having a list in this article. It is unclear how examples will be choosen, and what the inclusion criterias are. Many examples are at best controversial, as only fringe groups claim certain prisoners to be political prisoners. Stepopen (talk) 02:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Rather than have a list on the page itself, I think it would be a good idea to have a separate list page, or a category:political prisoners (or category:prisoners of conscience) Dadge (talk) 23:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
A claim that he is a 'political prisoner' keeps being inserted while the cited CNN source says "sexual offences". It is a conspiracy theory to suggest otherwise at present. Assange is held after bail was refused by the court last Tuesday and will appear in court again next Tuesday. Not exactly the behaviour of a police state. Philip Cross (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Nate Silver of the New York Times has written that: "The handling of [Assange's] case has been highly irregular from the start, in ways that would seem to make clear that the motivation for bringing the charges is political. . . . [T]he fact that the charges are (apparently) politically motivated is indeed a reason to regard them skeptically, and they make it less likely — perhaps much less likely — that Mr. Assange is guilty of them." (Silver, Nate (2010-12-15) A Bayesian Take on Julian Assange, New York Times). Sounds like a political prisoner to me.
I have some concerns regarding the removal of sourced statements without clear consensus. I would also consider this edit summary to be highly misleading:
brenneman 01:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
"Some understand the term political prisoner narrowly, equating it with the term prisoner of conscience (POC). Amnesty International campaigns for the release of prisoners of conscience, which include both political prisoners as well as those imprisoned for their religious or philosophical beliefs. To reduce controversy, and as a matter of principle, the organization's policy applies only to prisoners who have not committed or advocated violence. Thus, there are political prisoners who do not fit the narrower criteria for POCs."
You'd better get rid of this part of the article then, and make sure that you recycle your bs and sudden standard of having to have Amnesty International vet their status. I'm going to keep posting this. I have it saved, it takes me no more than thirty seconds to post it. Every time you delete it, I'll come back with another link that terms him a political prisoner, a term which in the very article itself is defined as ambiguous and that does not require certification by Amnesty Intgernatonal as if they were the UN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilex (talk • contribs) 05:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Odd, when you begin to decide what sources are legitimate and which are not, then what's the point? Greenwald's reporting is based on an interview with an official at quantico prison. There is nothing in this article that claims that certain standards must be met before calling someone a political prisoner. Rather, its quite clear that the designation is a statement of opinion in the first place. The article makes that perfectly clear. It seems that the only political prisoners allowed here, are political prisoners in states that have poor ties with the US. Is that just a coincidence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilex (talk • contribs) 06:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
You're obviously deleting without even reading the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilex (talk • contribs) 00:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I would like to reinsert my entry on Bradley Manning. Will I be blocked if I do so? Cecilex (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Now that it had quieted down a bit, I'm looking at the other entries in the list to see if they are well sourced.
Unless there is some clear inclusion criteria that I'm missing, things do not appear to be being handled even-handed-ly. Has more consideration not been given to removing the whole "list" aspect of this article? Two editors at the start of this thread supported that move.
Aaron Brenneman (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I just added Bradley Manning again. I think this is a fair assessment of the conditions of his imprisonment. Under the rubric of the article's definition of a political prisoner, Manning seems to fit the criteria, and there are other sources that attest to this opinion. The conditions of his imprisonment are verified by his lawyer, an article in the Daily Beast and by an interview with an official at Quantico military prison. The fact that these are illegal, and that a military judicial body is trying to intervene unsuccessfully on Manning's behalf are from Manning's lawyer, Lt. Colonel David Coombs.
If you have any problems with the way that this entry is presented or sourced, please discuss them with me. I will be happy to hear your case and change things accordingly if your argument is sound. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilex (talk • contribs) 00:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
My citations make a good argument to include Manning on the list of prisoners held without trial.
Here is the first citation from Australia’s public media corporation, it establishes why he has been put in jail, which was a political act from Manning's point of view and that of others: [3]
Here is the second link, from Glenn Greenwald on Salon. Greenwald often does original reporting, this is such a piece of original reporting, based entirely on an interview with a public relations official at Quantico Brig
[4]
Here is an assertion from Julian Assange that Manning is a political prisoner. [5]
Here is a round up of opinions on Manning, including that of Greenwald, and another commentary by Lew Rockwell that many “official dissidents” from other countries are accused of similar crimes: [6]
Another article detailing the harsh conditions under which Manning is kept, with an interview with his lawyer and a claim that the conditions of his imprisonment, in which no trial date has been set after seven months, are harsher than other military prisoners kept for similar crimes. This shows discriminatory treatment. [7]
Finally, this is from the blog of Manning’s defense counsel, David Coombs, who makes the argument that these conditions are illegal, and that military legal organizations have attempted unsuccessfully to address them. This shows extra legal treatment. [8]
Finally, concerning the editors that reverted the entry over and over again. There is no way to engage them in a conversation about any of these issues, because its obvious that they look at none of the citations. They simply said no, abusing their authority. I tried various times to discuss the issue with them, and also addressed their concerns by amplifying my citations when I re-posted. There should be some kind of discipline for them, for a limited amount of time, as they are abusing the rules and forcing other editors into situations where they have to break the rules to use Wikipedia. Cecilex (talk) 04:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Just a note on the point above, that "reliable sources" are required before that particular editor will accept any addition to the list of Political Prisoners. The problem is that none of the sources quoted in reference to current entries on the list are reliable. They're nearly all, for example, guilty of reporting that there really were WMD's in Iraq. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist is another man's political prisoner. Unless there really is some "Neutral Point of View" whereby the criteria for inclusion are openly listed and debated, then the suspicion remains that the biggest problem attending to the addition of Bradley E Manning to the list of Political Prisoners is that the country imprisoning him is the United States of America. As I am sure hardly needs pointing out, that does little to foster the appearance of Wikipedia as having a "Neutral Point of View". Perhaps it would be more appropriate simply to admit that the definition is inherently biased by ones nationality, political position and worldview, and to simply report that many people around the world do consider Bradley E Manning to BE a Political Prisoner? That, at least, has the advantage of being an actual neutral statement of fact. ScuzzaMan (talk) 09:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Hardly an appropriate parallel, given that he's not dead, yet. As for "featuring", is it necessary to use such a word? He was merely added to the existing list, not "featured". What his inclusion adds to this article is that many people around the world DO consider him a political prisoner, since he is being denied his Constitutional right to a speedy trial, and many conclude this is being done due to the political ramifications of the crimes of which he is accused. ScuzzaMan (talk) 10:37, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
What I find interesting about this whole kerfuffle is that you all were perfectly content having poorly cited and un-cited assertions up, until someone made things "political" by including an American held by the US government. Then the whole world exploded. Asserting that Chinese and Cuban prisoners are political prisoners is perfectly allowable, if worrisome to some. But suggesting that the US has political prisoners represents cause to shut down the whole page. This is transparently biased behavior which has caused me to think twice [in addition to the twice-thinking skepticism I already apply] to anything I read on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.0.180.198 (talk) 01:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Although I think that a list of political prisoners can more properly be housed on a separate "list" page, I think a a resolution of who is and who is not a political prisoner is not necessary. One can say simply and objectively "X asserts that Y is a political prisoner". Then the discussion could turn from Who are the Y's to Who are the X's: who are the groups whose designation of status of political prisoner should be included here - where would people, who look at wikipedia for information, look to for this designation? ( Martin | talk • contribs 17:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC))
This would be similar to the approach taken in terrorist organization, but the list should be sortable. ( Martin | talk • contribs 17:30, 17 April 2012 (UTC))
Following the course of previous discussions on this page, I propose merging prisoner of conscience here. It seems to be almost a "content fork" of political prisoner, sort of a positive euphemism. No doubt there will still be cleanup issues to address—in particular, disagreement over whether to include a list of examples. But there's significant overlap between these articles, such that they should be merged. I would suggest a section here explaining Amnesty International's definition of political prisoners (as POCs). --BDD (talk) 04:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Birtukan Mideksa can we add her as a political prisoner? I would like to see more names included.--Inayity (talk) 23:21, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I think that there is a difference:
Once both positions become entrenched, a person will belong to both classes: such as "being a member of the communist party" in 1950 or a muslim in 2010 ( Martin | talk • contribs 21:12, 24 April 2012 (UTC))
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Political prisoner/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This entire entry 'Political prisoner' is a US government Right Wing diatribe against the Cuban and Chinese governments which are the 2 principle targets in this entry. Shame on Wiki for allowing this online! The whole entry should be deleted immediately. Any objective entry about political prisoners would not solely focus on 2 governments. There are plenty of political prisoners in the world to go around, including many of them made so by US foreign policy. Logannsafi |
Last edited at 16:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 03:11, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Please resubmit if longer is needed. There is a place at WP:rfpp with instructions on requesting an edit.Dlohcierekim (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Victorjjp and 212.169.202.5: Please discuss your dispute here. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, i will talk here. As for the controversy, as you can see here https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/74a2836b0ca6c66afce9f38788f15376/1508183799-2017-10-16-auto-prision-provisional-comunicada-y-sin-fianza.pdf. they are not in jail because of their political views. A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics) resolved they wanted to reoffend vi in the crimes they are accused of. The successor of one of the prosecuted has literally said they are going to commit the crimes again anyway (https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/17/catalunya/1508229944_368994.html) so the judge chose the preventive prison. You may agree or not with the decision but they are not political prisoners. Actually the head of the independentist movement is not in prison/not being judged at the moment. Stop shoehorning your opinions on objective matters
Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart completely fit the category of political prisoner. This is clear just by following the criteria described in the very same page we are talking about. Some of the criteria to classify a prisoner as political prisoner are:
In AI's usage, the term includes any prisoner whose case has a significant political element: whether the motivation of the prisoner's acts, the acts in themselves, or the motivation of the authorities.
...
In AI's use of the term, here are some examples of political prisoners:
...
a person accused or convicted of an ordinary crime committed in a political context, such as at a demonstration by a trade union or a peasants' organization;
Cuixart and Sanchez definitely meet that criteria (as well as other criteria listed in the page).
The judicial sentence has been challenged by many lawyers in Spain and abroad. Some examples:
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Junqueras-Demanem-PP-Fiscalia-Sanchez_0_1888611317.html
Lots of facts fully contradict the sentence. There was no violence. Not a single person injured. Additionally, a video has been released that proves the jailed persons actually requested the people to cease demonstrating. In the sentence, however, the opposite is said. See video in the following link: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171017/432142495111/video-jordi-cuixart-jordi-sanchez-disolver-manifestacion-economia.html
Moreover, multiple personalities have already referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See:
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/we-have-political-prisoners-again-says-catalan-president
Due to all this evidence, Cuixart and Sanchez should be listed in the list of notable political prisoners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// To reduce controversy, and as a matter of principle, the organization's policy applies only to prisoners who have not committed or advocated violence. Thus, there are political prisoners who do not fit the narrower criteria for POCs. The organisation defines the differences as follows:[1]
There was violence, as of broken cars, and police unable to leave the building they were in.
https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20170922/248725570_0.html http://www.publico.es/politica/fiscalia-presenta-denuncia-sedicion-protestas-catalunya.html
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
A lot of multiple personalities are against the use of force to not respect the law too.
And again you quote a video 9 hours into the riot to try to undermine the reputation and decision of a spanish judge, you said the protest was non violent but the people acussed are literally on top of a broken police car. Again, just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
As you can see the party of the acussed insists on comitting the same crimes and continue in his disturbance of the police work and the maintaining of the order. The preventive prison is not a matter of political views but a matter of safety.
For some reason i cannot see your further comments but in the edit page i can see that you are defending the political implications of the detention in a personal and biased opinion about the spanish justice not being impartial and democratic.I cannot discuss this any further because you are assuming one of the pillars of the democratic state to be false. I think the possibility of them being arrested because of their presunt crimes and the possibility of them commiting the crime again and not because a full-fledged national conspiracy between the government and the judicial power is more plausible and they should be kept out of the category of 'poliical prisoners' as they are just normal prisoners who just work in politics
@212.169.202.5: Stop deleting my content even in the talk page. If you are not willing to discuss perhaps you have no place in Wikipedia.
I am adding again the deleted text:
To your points, stating that "A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics)" is simply your opinion. The lack of independence of the Spanish Justice is well known. See:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/06/07/actualidad/1496827709_980747.html
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
c. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of; d. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
Answering to your new claims:
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
The links that I provided (and you deleted) show how Justice in Spain has a very low degree of independence. And the sources are certainly not supporting independence of Catalonia: a Spanish newspaper and the FMI. So, I am not discrediting Spain. Unfortunately, Spain does that to itself.
Overall, I have provided an overwhelming amount of evidence that proofs your claims are not sound.
ADDITIONAL CONTENT: Amnesty International has requested the set Cuixart and Sanchez free as the charges are "excessive." See: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur41/7308/2017/en/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 19:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting. Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest showing they have little to no knowledge of situation and facts.
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
You also seem to have little knowledge in the reasons for the preventive prison in Spain, is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs and the judge considered them reasonable.
Again we go in the same direction, you dont agree with the judge's resolve and you personally think it is because of the politicization of the judicial power, and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits calling all of their articles lies.
The overwhelming amount of evidence are personal views on the judicial sistem and self-rebutted definitions of political prisoners. My claim is still solid and the should not be considered political prisoners. Again, i'm sorry if i edited your content but it was by mistake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting.
Apology accepted.
Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs
What crime? Asking people to go back home? Destroying proofs? Which ones? There is video evidence that they never resorted to violence. This is not a corruption case where there are books to destroy. Actually, there are many corruption cases where the people being investigated were not sentenced to preventive prison, even if they COULD destroy evidence. Honestly, unless you have some evidence to back your claims it is clear there was no reason to imprison them. Even Amnesty International has requested their release.
you dont agree with the judge
Not me. Many people, including lawyers, judges, politicians, both in Spain and internationally.
and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits
Editorial articles in El Pais have been found to contain blatant lies in multiple occasions. The article I cite, however, simply refers to a report from the Council of Europe (a EU organization). Please, stop comparing apples to oranges.
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
No point in arguing so far, i posted all the evidence about 3 broken police cars and your only argument is you were not there so its not true That level of delusion and not acknowledging the other arguments is not going to take us anwyhere.
Also El Pais lies when its useful to me is just mind-boggling, as for the crime is SEDITION, i just stated that hours ago, but youre misinterpreting and not refering to it on purpose
If you really believe that a full legal document is lying in the destruction of the cars and the violence to police agents is up to you, but again keep your conspiracy theories for yourself, I wasn't in the moon landing too, just in case you want to edit that page too.
I feel like i've lost a lot of time on this, and i don't want to change your mind, but it seems like at least for now the page is not going to be your political pamphlet.
@My name is not dave: Sorry if i bothered you with this whole issue, but people using wikipedia to push their personal agenda and propaganda is not acceptable in my opinion. Wouldn't like to destroy the work of others deleting the section.
Now the days have passed, even more people agree that jordis are not political prisoners.
The european meeting which had place this week showed full support for the spanish government and his actions. here you have an article with the european comission.
The international amnesty document you refer to asks for their release (as they asked the release of some members of ETA or IRA for example) but doesnt call them political prisoners at all,
your last source is even more discreditable having this disclaimer in the bottom of the page
The information on this website concerns only the author, the European Parliament is not responsible for the use and content of the information.
Your inclusion claim is more and more unfounded as days pass.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 07:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
:It is funny as your first link shows a video where one person says they are political prisoners and another says they are not. Which one should we believe?
The first link shows a person calling political prisoners and getting refuted, dont be oblivious on purpose
:This other link mentions that multiple Catalan politicians refer to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. Nothing about anyone referring to them as non-political prisoners. Do you really read the articles that you link? It doesn't seem so.
The other link shows the spokesman of the european comission not acknowledging the claim the politicians (of the same party of the prisoners) made.
:Have I said they do so? But, it is interesting that one of the organizations defining criteria to qualify someone as political prisoner (as stated in this very same wikipedia article) is calling for their immediate release. If they believe they are not guilty of what Spanish justice is accusing them of, then Amnesty International is implicitly acknowledging Cuixart and Sanchez are in jail because of their political ideas.
Your mental gymnastics are just reaching stratosferical levels, they do not say they are political prisoners even you put the source as a proof for them being political prisoners?
:So? It is an article by an association of political parties within the EU. Neither EFA or I have said this article is an official EU statement.
No, its an article wrote by a guy and doesnt represent any official statement, as you said yourself
By the way EFA is a coalition of independentists and regionalist political parties, which is much worse than being the opinion of a guy, is literally supporting the crime because of their common political interests — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
I can also add another testimony http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171019/lesmes-cgpj-sanchez-cuixart-no-presos-politicos-6363881 The president of the Tribunal Supremo and Consejo General del Poder Judicial one of the most important judicial entities in Spain, and independent from the constitutional tribunal.
Summing up i've contributed official EU statements, one of the main politicians of the biggest party in the opossition (maybe they love the government too, living in your big conspiracy delusion) the main spanish media, and the OFFICIAL legal document with the proofs of their violence and the reasons they are in prison. You've contributed an obtuse and changing (sometimes even contradictory) definition of political prisoners, discrediting facts because they are laughable (as in, contrary to your opinion) ignoring every single proof sent your way and in general you've moved goalposts for 3 days. You are entitled to your own opinion but i've proven that there's more than REASONABLE doubt that they are political prisoners, maybe when the whole situation of catalonia's independence is solved we'll be able to get more things in clear but at the moment you're just turning a deaf ear, and not contributing anything whatsoever.
the OFFICIAL legal document with the proofs of their violence
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 20:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC) 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
The legal resolution of the judge of the process is not just a statement, she has all the proofs (that are listed on the document, not that you're gonna admit them anyway) and all my documents have made my points stronger. Also you're recurring to ad-hominem now that you've nothing whatsoever to back you up. You just avoid all the points given to you so for my part the debate is over too. We reached no consensus whatsoever and you made no valid points so in my opinion the list should be kept as it is.
The "proofs" are just a collection of words written by the judge (or even worse, the Guardia Civil)
All the "evidence" in the sentence is a bunch of lies,
The damage to the police cards ascended to 130k€, as my last comment wikipedia is an objective and imparcial site, and you're just borderline negationist at this point. I hope mods solve this issue the best they can.
No violence whatsoever.
You're entitled to your own delusion but please keep lies out of wikipedia
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 22:56, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 21:38, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
References
As per discussion above, I'll add Jordi Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners, since this is stated by some mainstream media and political parties and fits the definition. See references. Thanks! --Jey (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
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Add to list of political prisoners Zakaria Zubeidi 92.4.169.6 (talk) 19:27, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
This edit request to Political prisoner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under notable groups of Political Prisoners, I believe it should include the Cuban political prisoners known as Plantados (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantado), these individuals endured punishments and inhumane conditions for as long as 30 years. 2601:58A:8280:56A0:5998:9116:A1FC:38E9 (talk) 14:06, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
An agreement had already been reached as to their status, and that was even before the recent developments in Germany and Scotland. Nevertheless, certain users with Spanish sounding-handles or Spanish IPs insist on trying to remove their names surreptitiously. Why? Are those Wikipedia users as cowardly as those who govern them? I feel pity for you chaps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.167.169.240 (talk) 15:54, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
~~~~
]). tubedogg (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
References
I guess that's a reasonable enough source to settle this matter?
194.228.11.245 (talk) 22:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_June_29#Category:Political_prisoners Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
List from Category:Political prisoners
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:09, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
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Delete "and mass murderer" from sentence on Abdullah Ocalan. Clearly an ideological edit. 69.7.253.170 (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2022 (UTC)