This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This article was nominated for deletion on 3 August 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
The previous article contained many good points, but I restructured it to sound less like an advertisement for the product and tried to make it more impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.198.170 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I try to keep up with Wikipedia's NPOV Policies while making the article reflect on all of Bose's Headphone offerings instead of one. This article looks like it's incomplete, as I might have some pictures about the QuietComfort 2 Headphones from my own disk drive, but please feel free to adjust the neutrality of the article to whatever means possible. Thanks. — Vesther 23:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
If you guys can get the Impedance, Sensitivity, Frequency Range, etc. out of these overpriced headphone family (I already got the Tri-Port Headphones settled), then I would highly appreciate it. Be sure to cite your sources. Thanks. — Vesther 02:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I talked to someone at a Tweeter Audio/Video store and I asked him how he felt about the Bose Tri-Port Headphones. He told me that he didn't like them because the mid and low bass levels tend to overlap the Treble levels, and that he can't hear the highs whatsoever. He was pretty much an audiophile and he recommended the Shure Earbuds over the Bose Tri-Port Headphones for reasons unknown.
Just wanted to clarify the Audiophiles' criticism about the Bass problem. — Vesther 20:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've seen two instances of trolling in this talk page, so please really watch out what you are saying on these talk pages, since I really "bite" messages that are deemed to be trolls. Trolling (messages that encourages flaming on a page) won't be tolerated, so please watch what you are saying. — Vesther 03:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I cleaned up the product descriptions. I also took this criticism out:
It is lacking in specifics. What does "more reliable materials" mean? What does a "true high-end pair of headphones" mean?
I also took out references to having no criticisms. The section is supposed to describe criticisms. If there aren't any, then there is no reason for the section to be there.
I also took this out:
Addressing treble concerns also had Bose wondering about the retainment of the headphones' Bass performance, which has been a condition of releasing a product with the Bose name for many years.
Because it doesn't make sense. Does it mean that they were worried about improving the treble performance at the expense of the bass performance? If so, what did they do about it?
Jm307 04:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers here but I want to point out that I do find this article completely unbalanced. This article is currently a history about the line, certain specs and any negative review found on the net. If the Negatives are going to be shown the Positives must be listed also.
As an owner of the QC2 v2 I must say they are really amazing. I might not have even bothered to listen to them thinking that they were just hyped up if I would have read this article. I also have the benefit of listing to many competitors noise reducing headphones before my purchase. Not only is the noise reduction on the QC2's the best... the speakers are just amazing, not to mention the Bass!!! These Headphones have something that none of the others had a deep bass, and I guess they fixed the treble problems mentioned on the earlier ones since the Highs are just like they should be! I hope that we can even out this article. Thanks (UKPhoenix79 07:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC))
I understand that I cast a negative opinion of Bose headphones here, but I believe your "balancing out" of this article is subjectivist. You really like the QuietComfort 2 headphones...more power to you, but if you look at Headroom (www.headphone.com), there are many headphones that will offer at least similar sound quality, if not comparable noise isolation. There are also canalphones that compete with the Bose family in the headphone regards of both SQ and noise isolation--if you look in a Best Buy nowadays, Triports are sold next to Shure's E2C and E3C. I won't point out negatives here again--I'm sure there are enough audiophiles with a vendetta for Bose for that, and I'm sure they'd love to do worse things to this page--but I really thought that I was the one making a balance.68.109.96.120 04:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Bose is a highly controversial name in audio equipment for legitimate reasons, and yet the entirety of the wiki page associated with the Bose headphone line seems to speak in blatant affirmation and praise of the lineup. Referring to the Triport drivers as below
"Beginning in 1998, with the launch of the Bose Aviation X headsets, bose introduced the company's proprietary TriPort drivers. TriPort Drivers deploy three small ports in the earcups to produce loudspeaker-quality sound in a headphone package. Each earcup starts out with small ports and an earcup design that was designed to cover the ear entirely. The Triport system generates a unique airflow in the cup producing deep lows and clear highs. The 3 ports are strategically placed on the earcup: 2 tiny and one large. All headphones released by Bose since 1998 utilize the TriPort Drivers."
displays a marketer's sincerity in singing the glory of the product, while criticisms are quickly edited away as "subjective?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.39.151.239 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 25 March 2006 (UPC)
I doubt that Bose is as insidious as you believe. For some reason that I think that Bose has become an easy target without any real tangible reason. Myself I am a computer programmer and I get people dissing Microsoft (aka M$) endlessly. I personally would prefer not to use Win XP and instead use Linux. Yet all my software is for Windows so I personally use it even though I find it unstable, a bit bloated & slow. Most of the times the people who diss M$ are people who can’t even give a good reason why they don’t like it. And I don’t really like it when people diss things just because it’s what everyone else says... For some people Win XP is exactly what they need (Like my parents) and Linux would be overkill. This is the same with Bose...Some people what to sped $5,000 on an entertainment rack and $3,000 on each speaker... Yet others would rather spend $4,000 on a home entertainment system from Bose that does have very good sound at a cheaper price. And don’t try to attack me for saying that since if you did hear it you’d agree that it sounded good, but probably not as good as the $20,000 system, and frankly it shouldn’t sound better... I mean you’re spending 4 times the price I would hope it would sound 4 times better.
The "QuietComfort 2 Second Edition" part is not marketing but is trying to put any criticisms they have in a NPOV way.... An encyclopedia is about FACTS and the facts about each headphone are clearly listed and we all try to remove the marketing info that EVERY company includes with the info on their products. Opinions are not facts... yet it is a fact that Bose has been criticized about their products, but the criticisms aren't always consistent and many are contradictory. So we try to list the ones that don’t contradict each other in as NPOV as possible. After all everyone's hearing is subjective and the two people can hear the same thing and one person will say it has too much bass and the other will say it doesn't have enough
As for what you said about the headphones I do believe that you’re comparing apples to oranges. Bose does go with the general public when they create anything and do tend to avoid the limited market (money wise) in hi-end audiophile systems. The headphones are designed for travelers and regular home users... after all that’s the majority of the people/market out there so you cant try to compare the $299 outer-ear QC2’s to the $900 in-ear Ultimate Ears. It’s a completely different market and end user. I have had this convo before here is the link to it. Please remember that you are talking to a person that has compared other company’s products and for what my needs were I found what I was looking for... From what you say I doubt that you have heard anything from Bose and are just following the crowd. That is not meant as a diss in any way, but as an advice to listen and for yourself. Go to your local Bose store, bring your own stuff to listen to and be willing to hear what they have.
From what I have experienced Bose has always gone out of their way to help customers with any problems that they have and are always helpful in answering any questions... How do you think I managed to find so much info about the original Aviation Headsets? They were on the phone with me for about an hour answering questions about something they haven’t even made in over 8 years. Heck I even had one person transfer me to the head of their department since he was the only one that knew about the system since he was there when they originally sold them... I must say that that is commitment to the customer and I really respect that. --UKPhoenix79 06:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
((Link removed at the request of Vesther))
This link only talks about the Bose Acoustimass article and likely this link belongs ONLY on the Bose Corporation article IMO. It has NOTHING to do with Headphones, besides any works cited SHOULD try to talk only about Bose's Headphones, the Intellexual.NET link does NOT talk about headphones. People should read the external link VERY CAREFULLY before even putting a citation in the article. Off-Topic citations are somewhat dangerous grounds. I won't be too harsh on external links that criticises and/or favors Bose, but I just want to make sure that all external citations are uniform to the Bose Headphone Family. Thanks. — Mark Kim 00:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand this comment "The primary criticism is the perception that the QC2 SE fail to compete adequately in terms of sound quality in the pricerange." Out on the market today no other outer ear headphones have the same sound quality & noise cancellation... You can get better sounding outer-ear headphones but with either no noise cancellation or noise cancellation that doesn’t compare to the QC2's. Also don't forget that the QC2 SE came out improving the sound (treble & bass) and I have yet to find any reviews on the new QC2's.
I Just tried on the Sony MDR-NC50 a few weeks ago with a few friends and did an A/B demo againts my QC2 SE. Now I will say that the $199 price the NC50 wasn't that bad. The sound was pretty good, better than I expected. Yet they were rather uncomfortable to ware and the noise cancellation created a constant low frequency buzz/hum that drives you nuts over a period of time. After comparing both of them everyone including the sales person agreed that the QC2 SE were better for sound, comfort & noise cancellation... And the best thing is that I have worn the QC2's for HOURS and just forgot that I had them on!!!
If you’re going PURELY for sound quality then the QC2's aren’t bad in the least.... But they aren't purely for sound quality and there not even marketed that way. They mix in what is considered the best noise cancellation tech out there... you could only do better if you had in-ear headphones that naturally block the ear canal. -- UKPhoenix79 06:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
My reverts are from people trolling and frankly it’s been picking up ALOT recently. The criticisms have been overly biased and frankly anytime someone goes over the top, there is little that can be salvaged and it’s just reverted. Frankly I agree with you about that line but I haven't seen a good replacement to that so it’s pretty much stayed as it has. My sole goal for this article is to become NPOV and I have been playing devils advocate for a long time... but too many IP accounts have been trolling so it’s not easy to work at it with people to improve the article. Yes active noise cancellation does degrade the sound and that is (from what I have found out) why Bose doesn’t allow you to use the headphones with out power since the headphones loose sound quality without power. They use something they call "Active Equalization" to try to correct for this. The improved active equalization on the QC2’s is also one of the reasons that there aren’t as many artifacts that the QC1’s had. Why not include the info that ALL noise cancellation headphones do this? Why make it seam that it is only Bose? Why don’t other noise canceling headphone companies have criticisms listed? Is it only because this is made by Bose?
Why are people even trying to compare the QC2's to other non-noise canceling headphones? If you want to compare them to anything compare them to the TriPorts not the QC2 SE!! It’s just the same as comparing apple and oranges... You have to compare Both the Noise cancellation & sound not nitpicking the one and ignoring the other. Noise reduction after all is what the headphones are designed primarily to do! And the Sennheiser noise reducing headphones I tried them before the QC2's and so have many others and frankly they lay on your ears and don’t cover your ears so if you do go a plane... as many of us do you can still hear the engine pretty well. Yet the QC2's go around your ear and remove a lot more of the engine by a noticeable amount actually. And they do have better sound then the lower end Sennheiser headphones. You see the noise reducing Sennheiser headphones don’t have the same sound quality as the non-noise reducing Sennheiser headphones... do the comparison for yourself. -- UKPhoenix79 10:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not attempting to flame or troll here, but you're actively stifling criticism and reverting every attempt at establishing a NPOV and more importantly at qualifying and explaining criticism back to the same meaningless thing. Please stop. I've re-edited to remove the references to other headphones, but I feel it is very important to reflect the reasoning behind the criticism, especially in light of potential confusion over why it's there in the first place. JBkar 09:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. I would like to sincerely apologize if I was mistaken about your editing, especially if you are a new user to Wikipedia. I defiantly don't want to give new users a bad impression of others here. We all take pride in our collective work and the collaborative manner in which it's all put together and that's why we can take offense at people trying to damage that effort. It looked like you might be a sock puppet created to harass and troll the page. This was due to your non-existent edit history and the fact that you ignored all the messages I left. The reason I didn't edit what you said was because I perceived you as another person putting up false information and not taking the article seriously. Even if you didn't intend to, it looked to me like you were, so I didn't really take the edits seriously either. This page has been getting a lot of trolls recently. So I assumed a malicious intent against this article. But I'm happy to be wrong in your case and would love to work with you to help improve this page (c:=
I would love to see the graph. Who was it done by? Remember it should be compared to other noise canceling headphones since that is the product category that the QC2's are in. If as you say all noise canceling headphones have overwhelming bass and diminished treble (Please cite someplace in addition to headphone.com) I would love to see how the different version of noise canceling headphones compare to each other... Any chance that the graph comparisons will be against the New QC2 SE? Any comparison against non-noise canceling headphones should be done against the TriPorts since they would be in the same category... If it is possible I would love to see frequency response graph's of all the different Bose headphones... that would be a great way to see the frequency improvements over each model. Don't forget that noise canceling headphones have to be judged by three criteria form factor, sound quality and noise cancellation. Having one that has great sound but creates a buzzing or is really lousy at reducing outside noise would be a big negative in this category. Only the TriPorts should be compared to non-noise canceling headphones for sound quality/frequency response. I have said this before and most likely will say 100 more times to other people.
Don't forget that there are 3 consumer Bose headphones out now the TriPorts, Quiet Comfort 2 SE, and Aviation Headset X. Two of these, the QC2 SE & AHX, are noise canceling with the AHX designed specifically for pilots. The TriPorts are the only non-noise canceling headphones Bose has ever made. Many people don't compare different headphones in the same product category and that shouldn't be included since they are not comparing the different products correctly.
When people compare headphones they should be the same type. Therefore the
You said that ALL noise reduction tech naturally do EXACTLY what critics complain about with the QC2's therefore the only way to truly compare them is to compare other companies doing the same and see who's is better with this handicap. Just curious are you 162.39.148.149? Talk to you later :) -- UKPhoenix79 09:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've created a new section after the criticisms to act as an amalgamated rejoinder. This has a few benefits, the most important of which being that the section entitled "Criticisms" now contains solely criticms and that the rejoinder in the previous edit of QC2 needs to talk about all of their headphones, as they're not just working on improving the QC2. I also clarified criticisms without adding any contested or extraneous information, and removed extraneous information that lacked citation or qualification. Tell me what you think. JBkar 13:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Well this is almost certainly the QC2 v1 and I am familiar with the PXC250 (they have the MSRP of $150). I looked at the frequency graph and yes it is very small. But it looked like the QC2 v1 on average were closer to neutrality than the PXC250 were and if you look at the lows and highs the PXC250 were more unbalanced than the QC2 v1 even were. Yet PXC250 dose fail in one major area for noise canceling headphones. They lay on top of your ears not cupping around them. So you can easily hear the rest of the world even with the noise reduction tech active and they do produce a hissing sound! Check out the CNET reviews on noise reducing headphones.
You’re the 1st person here who has actually tried to compare the QC2's to another noise reduction headphone. Thanks! I would really love to see a professional comparison against the QC2 SE... But personally I did the next best step to that. I actually listened to them and compared them for my self, and I can say that the QC2 SE have the best of both worlds. If you're like me and travel you could have great sounding headphones but they’re useless if you can't hear them while traveling. The QC2 SE do both, and in my unscientific research of comparison shopping and testing with my own ears, they have the best mix of great sound and excellent noise reduction. Just compare them for yourself. People must remember that they are not marketed as audiophile headphones but noise reduction headphones. Heck even the TriPorts aren't marketed as audiophile headphones, not like they could be any way.
But I do have a question if ALL noise reducing headphones, due to their inherent technology, naturally have unbalanced highs and lows, why is it that only the QC2 has a criticisms section on its sound quality? Other noise canceling headphones are all smiles and joy? Is it only because the QC2's are made by Bose? Now that a double standard wouldn't you say? There are two things that bug me, stating a POV as a fact and keeping a double standard. And here I am constantly defending this article against people that think that is just fine! And don't worry I’m not referring to you since you seam to be one of the few that's keenly interested in helping. Oh well... I will try and include the active equalization and see how it turns out. Talk to you later -- UKPhoenix79 22:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I still would like to know if you have tried on the NEW QC2 SE or did you try out the original QC2? Remember they did change them. You can tell the difference between the two because the QC2 SE came out just before Christmas 2005 and they are now silver headphones. Frankly the fact they don't run w/o batteries doesn't bug me in the least. So many things now require power in the modern day you're used to it. When one travels you always carry spare batteries and the carry case has a pouch that can carry a few in. If the batteries only lasted for several hours now that would be a problem, but the fact that the QC2 SE could run for nearly 2 days straight before running out isn't anything to scoff at.
I would have to say that the Richard Nixon article would say that he lied and wouldn't call him a liar directly... If you did that it gives the impression that he lied about everything and thusly you should never trust anything he said... This would be counter to the NPOV since it would infer an opinion about everything that he ever said or did not only as a president but as a man. And as you pointed out Bose isn't even close to Nixon and marketing is marketing. I already gave you examples or contradictory corporate slogans all touting that they are the best in their industry and I highly doubt that there is a section in each of those Wiki pages countering all their claims.... Yet here we are again why dose Bose have them??? Why aren't Sennheiser's noise reducing headphones lambasted? It's only because the QC2's are created by Bose and Bose has a rep that I think is unwarranted in the audiophile community and audiophiles are always eager to attack anything that Bose does. And I would have to say that they are the best "Around the ear (circumaural), Comfortable, Closed, Noise canceling" headphones made. And I must say that they are very comfortable and since these are headphones designed primarily for people that do a lot of traveling, that is very important!
And the way you're talking, it would never lead me to believe that you thought QC2 users were stupid since you do seam to respect my opinions like I respect yours even though we do disagree about them. But who says that you have to always agree to respect a person's opinion? -- UKPhoenix79 23:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to figure out how to add the Active Equalization part to the criticism section. Heres what I have come up with. What do you think?
"The QuietComfort 2 Second Edition, like both the QC1 and the original QC2, cannot function without the noise-cancelling ability. This is most likely due to the fact that the QC2's have Active Equalization which require power to improve the sound quality and to counteract the effects of active noise cancelling. Yet, it wouldn't be necessary to counteract the noise cancellation if they functioned passively as well. The QC family is amongst other noise-cancelling products with this issue." -- UKPhoenix79 01:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy not that intellexual.net article again.... groan.... that this is so full of errors it's really not funny. That article is so POV it's amazing that it hasn't been sued! But even if you believe everything that it says it is so outdated and talking about products that Bose hasn't made in the last 7 years... for god's sakes it was talking about a system that had a passive bass not even an active bass.... That's why the bass sucked and the mids yea the article is very, very biased and I don’t know enough about that old system to talk about the mids. But at least the new systems do have mids even using a dual crossover to blend the bass and cubes since their frequencies overlap. But that has absolutely nothing to do with headphones and frankly should be discussed in the Bose stereo speaker article. But most likely will still be talked about here... sigh...
Yea they do get very uncomfortable and I will stand steady saying that any noise canceling headphones worth their salt also use simple passive noise reduction tech to remove sound even before active noise technology is added. And the best tenique is circumaural. I must say that I haven't heard about the Sennheiser HD-25. I don't understand how they could be so far off the mark with those headphones! And the Grado headphones don't sound too good either because pressure against the ears are a big no-no when using them for long periods of time. I must say that I like what you said "the QC2 are incredibly comfortable headphones, like wearing two light, sound-blocking pillows on your head" I don't think I have heard anyone say something that sounded so poetic and nice about them.
I removed the word "limited" from the active equalization section. But if you thought that it needed something like that maybe using limiting or something else might work... I just couldn't think of anything without having to re-word everything. Talk to you later. -- UKPhoenix79 23:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Trying something new... I don't know if it will work or not but I have been thinking of this for a while now. I have reorganized the headphones, they were listed chronologically but now the headphones are organized into sub categories to help people search for what they are looking for. They were organized by "Current Bose Headphones", "Previous Nose Reducing Headphones" and "Previous Aviation Headsets."
This does create some issues since now the Current headphones need to have more info inserted in them. Previously it was assumed that you'd see the improvements that were included with the original version so it wasn't restated in the new ones. So this article needs some more TLC to aid the readers. But that's assuming you like the change... If it doesn't work we may just have to revert it back to its original form. -- UKPhoenix79 10:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I feel that there has been too much harsh criticism on not only these headphones, but other "things" as well whether or not it's Bose. I think the real reason why audiophiles "slam" certain products and create pages to troll products is mainly because of their disregard of two things: proper audiology and psychoacoustics. Bose is known for their taut understanding of psychoacoustics, something that they've been trying to perfect for many years. Those who think that Bose attracts people just because of their marketing has excessive disregard of how much Bose understand psychoacoustics. In fact, Bose has been working very closely with psychoacoustics since their company was founded 4 decades ago. Just my 2 cents. — Mark Kim (Reply/Start Talk) 23:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
This whole article seems all too clearly written by an affiliate of Bose Corporation. I dispute the neutrality of this Article. 87.194.58.94 22:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)The Mutant sausage
I am a regular wikipedia user and despite having an EB account find myself using wikipedia increasingly as a source of generally impartial factual information. That opinion took a nosedive today when I came across this 'article' in Wikipedia while looking for information on ear protection.
If I want to find out about Bose headphones (or any other product) I will go to their web site - I don't expect to find a companies product range specification in an encyclopedia. One can easily imagine the impact if every company starts using wikipedia as a site to promote their products under the guise of giving facts to the reader.
The FACT is I don't care whether this so called article is written from a NPOV or not, whether it's balanced or nor or even whether it is factually correct or not - I DO care that my favourite encyclopedia is being abused under the specious argument that if it's a fact it somehow deserves a place here. I can think of a hundreds of types of completely factual information that I don't want to see cluttering up wikipedia and marketing information is pretty close to the top of the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.35.209 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 12:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
You asked, in the AfD discussion, so here's my answer, essentially as taken from there. But I think we're too far apart. Anyone who could think it was appropriate to use a photograph like Bose_QC2_person.jpg rather than a picture just showing the headphones has a wildly different concept of what's encyclopedic than I do.
The things I think should be in the article would be hard to research and would involve quite a lot of hard work, and it's not my field of interest.
A good article would answer questions like this: When did Bose first introduced noise-cancelling aviation headphones? Noise-cancelling consumer headphones? Were either of these the first on the market? If not, whose were and what factors account for Bose's success in outstripping them? The basic idea of active noise cancellation dates back to the 1930s, so why is it difficult to do? Obviously there much more to it than "send[ing] out the noise it receives phase-shifted 180 degrees." What were Bose's key technical innovations, as documented in patents and, probably, in the trade press, and, Bose being an academic, quite possibly in scientific journal articles? What's the difference between the technology in the aviation headphones and the consumer version? What can be said about Bose's business and marketing strategies? Does Bose sell exclusively by mail and in its own retail stores? Why? To what people is Bose trying to sell these headphones? How many have been sold? How do sales of Bose noise-cancelling headphones compare with those of other headphones in the same price range?
And, of course, the pictures should be pictures of the headphone (the steak); not the sizzle, i.e. pictures of people registering hair-raising ecstasy or smug satisfaction... people who incidentally happen to have something unidentifiable on their ears. It would be nice to have a picture of one opened up and showing the electronic components inside. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Now that the AfD is over, I'm giving fair warning that if the paragraphs in violation of copyright (meaning they were cut-and-pasted from the Bose website) are not rewritten, I will edit them out. Akradecki 15:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Just now I had to refine one part of the article to make it less advert-esque (The Research Background was plagued), but even though I made it less like an advertisement, there's still bugs, and I do appreciate if any of you have the power to work around the bugs (I had to place a Citation Needed tag on the TriPort section for bug-fixing purposes). Thanks. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 19:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Photos of current or recent products are things we can source free images for, and are not suitable candidates for a Fair Use claims. A flickr search for bose would be a good place to start, or if you own a pair, take a photo. ed g2s • talk 09:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Above all of these, the fact remains that illustrating the appearance of a set of headphones does not overcome the basic goal for this to be a free encyclopedia. If a set of headphones is so rare that there's no way to find a set to photograph, why on Earth do we need a prose description of it, let alone a photograph? It had better be a historically important set, and none of these list entries assert that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Do not replace "fair use" images while discussion is ongoing. Full stop. Editors who replace fair use images while there is a question as to their status are going to get blocked for copyright violations even if they turn out to be correct. This is unambigious. - brenneman {L} 06:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
this page used to look good ukpohienix brought up some good points. if some headphones are not avalable then why cant we use them? where does it say you cant use images while fair use discussion goes on? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.135.139.221 (talk • contribs).
there seams to be no debate here about the worth of these images only one user dictating policies can there be an actual conversation on these images? --64.240.163.221 04:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
"Bose Headphone Family" needs neither capitalization nor "Family", I suggest moving this page to Bose headphones per the WP:MOS. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 01:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the history, I have been seeing a reversion of hidden templates, and a removal of hidden templates [1]. I really don't like to see two people fighting around the edits and if the "edit fighting" persists, I might have to be forced to conduct a straw poll here. So please, talk to your fellow editors on how you feel hidden templates before even starting a reversion war. At this point, the last four edits aren't obvious, but the reason why hidden templates are being used is to ensure that navigation is easier to do. I don't know what the point of removing the hiding coding on the navigation, but we need to agree to things so that we all assume good faith on "one plate". Please discuss what your thoughts about hidden templates in this article are. I appreciate if you talk before you edit. Thanks. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 20:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice that for some reason, placing upgrade information looks like a bit of an advert and is somewhat not needed for encyclopedic purposes. I'm not going to nuke it, but I need your feedback on this before it can be foregone. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 19:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)