This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Could someone please check if the notion that leftist in America means "new left" and in Europe means lefts organized in communist parties is right? Myself an European, I think this differs widely from country to country. There was a "new left" hereover, too. --till we *) 19:39 Oct 19, 2002 (UTC)
I do not object to the article as such, but the initial stub was misleading. What differentiates right and left is highly variable, and what constitutes right and left are also highly variable.
It is simply false to identify "left" with sympathetic to socialism or communism. This is certainly true of some leftists, but not all. It is an even more egregious error to identify this with liberalism in the US. Traditionally, US liberals were Cold War hawks staunchly opposed to communism, and far from agreed concerning socialism. Other leftists are anarchists who are oppsed to communism and socialism at least insofar as they have been practiced in Europe.
What "the left" means has changed over time, and it would be misleadint to readers to define "leftist" in a way that associates it with how some leftists in one place at one time understand themselves. SR
This is a vast vast vast improvement over the original, I am grateful to the person/those people who worked on it.
I made two changes.
US ambitions, and not solely Soviet ambitions, were responsible for the Cold War.
Also, I cut the last line that deprecated Nitzschian postmodernism. That it is NPOV is enough to justify deletion. But I would add that many claim that National Socialism was at best a perversion of Nietzsche, and at worst had nothing to do with it except some self-serving and ignorant claims. Whatever post-modernism's political claims are (and I do not think they are unified, isn't that the point of pomo?), and whatever its effects will be, I wouldn't blame any bad outcomes on Nietzsche's influence.
I am not qualified, but I hope that others will developm non-communist elements of leftism, including Democratic Socialism (or is it Social Democracy), environmentalism, feminism, and anarchism. SR
On reflection I added the fact that it was originally the right which defined the political spectrum. My point on communism, and the reason I spent so much time on it, is that it defined the left-right spectrum and to an extent still does. American liberals are on the left of American conservatives because they're relatively closer to communists. By now the ancien regime doesn't exist anymore, and there isn't yet something to replace communism as the defining point of the spectrum. A.J. (Oops, I thought the first part was an objection to mine, not the one he deleted. I certainly hope no one thinks I imply that all leftists, of any sort, actually support communism. For the most part they merely resemble it relatively more than those on the right.)
It is mine, except for the part about the Cold War you altered. I would object to you your definition of leftism because, for example, the Soviet Union had a great deal of inequality, both in how many material goods people had and in how much power they had. Unless you want to completely rearrange how people use their words it won't work. Of course you're right that the left is more than a reaction to the ancien regime (and right that it was modern, but that's what people called it), which is why the ancien regime no longer defines the ideological spectrum. Communism won't either once something else comes along. A.J.
Just one point of historic fact. The Estates General was not the National Assembly nor a national assembly. A national assembly indicates a form of national participative representative body akin to a modern parliament. The Estates General was not a parliament in the modern sense; it was not democratic and it wasn't representative. Elements of it however broke away to become something akin to a national parliament. JTD 07:05 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)
It would be nice to know what are/were each nation's left-wing political parties, and whom from said parties became a leader of state. Kingturtle 18:07 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
Since the definitions of Right-wing politics and Left-wing politics appear so inextricably tied together, I am proposing a higher-level page called Left-Right politics whose purpose is to discuss their definition. That would allow the page for each wing to focus more on its unique characteristics (such as how it evolved in that country), rather than characterizing its opponents. What do you think? Drernie 21:13, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Is 'Liberalism left-wing?
The link to http://www.politicalcompass.org seems to me like it would more belong in Political spectrum than here, but for the moment I'm leaving it alone. I'd appreciate another opinion or two on this. -- Jmabel 06:28, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Definately. But I want each individual point of the political spectrum to have a link to the political spectrum site. Its a handy and fun way to learn about one view of all 4 (Libertarian, Authoritarian, Left wing, Right wing) types of politics. Besides, I love the test. It told my politics are identical to the Pope John Pauls (I'm a bit more authoritarian)! ;) Jack 07:42, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It would seem to me that our various related articles should point to Political Spectrum and that only Political Spectrum should point to the external article, rather than pointing in four separate places to the same external article, but I'm not going to override you; still if a few more people weigh in on my side of this, I hope you will reconsider. -- Jmabel 00:47, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I can't see any possible reason for your objection to my link. The fact that it would ALSO have merit in an article on the political spectrum in no way reduces its merits here. I wasn't looking to discuss the link, or the questionability of terms at length in this article. I do however insist opon the value of the link. I ask you, what is the detriment in having this link on this article? Jack 01:02, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The detriment is simply that we usually try to avoid the proliferation of external links unless they are highly relevant. But, as I said, I'm willing to let it drop. Can we just stop discussing this, given that I've agreed to leave the article your way? -- Jmabel 06:57, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
If there are no objections, yes. I know of no policiy regarding the reduction of external links, and I of course regard this as highly relevent. I did add a disclaimer, as user:wik said it was POV, or some such. Jack 09:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I doubt that the phrase "Nietzschean philosophies" as it is now used in the article is informative. I think it needs to be either expanded on or dropped, and was hoping that the person who added the phrase would clarify what he/she meant to say. I'm guessing that the reference is to deconstructionism (which reasonably can be argued to originate in Nietzsche's work), but certainly Nietzsche himself was no leftist and most ideas that would be generally be considered "Nietzschean" are not embraced by any significant portion of the left, or even of the deconstructionists. I'm not going to edit this right now, but if no one responds in the next week or so, I'm probably going to reword this to refer to the immediately relevant deconstructionism rather than the tenuous intellectual ancestor, Nietzsche. The topic of the descent of desconstrucionism from Nietzsche would seem more fit for an article on deconstructionism than on left-wing politics. -- Jmabel 04:39, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I agree that Nietzsche is not best used as a example of the left. He was quite revoloutionary, and aggresive, things not shared by all leftists. But the nihilism which he shared with postmodernism and left-wing politics (really any form of moral relativism) is clear. He rejected God, stating "God is dead". And he provided the underlying philosophies for both humanism and Nazism. A mention of him here is necessary. Jack 06:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Be bold! Jack 01:48, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, I AM left wing, according to that political compass test ;) Jack 22:58, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The newly added "Neo-leftism in China" seems, at a quick read, like good material, but this article seems the wrong place for it. Is there somewhere more appropriate we could put it, get it down to a few sentences here and a link? -- Jmabel 07:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
In the last sentence of the first paragraph of the section "History of the term" I added the word "be" to the following sentence right after the word "ways" because it just didn't read right to me the way it was. I suspect this was just a typo and "be" was inadvertently left out but maybe I am reading the sentence wrong somehow.
The "left" of 1789 would, in some ways [be] part of the present-day "right", liberal with regard to the rights of property and intellect, but not embracing notions of distributive justice, rights for organized labor, etc.
As far as I know, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People still claims to be "outside politics" and thus the link's placement here is inappropriate. Even if you are convinced the NAACP is a leftist group, I think there is little reason in this case not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, the link doesn't add much to begin with. -- Spleeman 11:07, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The section "Leftism, Pacifism and 'War on Terror'" seems to be degenerating into a very POV not-quite-rant. I'm busy elsewhere, but someone should take this on with NPOV in mind. -- Jmabel 11:31, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
A lot of the information in this section needs to be factchecked, and refactored into other articles on the anti-"War on Terror" movement, and this section restricted to just dealing with the Left itself. Pyrop 22:47, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)