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At the bottom of the first section it says "If diminished responsibility or capacity is presented convincingly, the charges may be reduced to the lesser offense of manslaughter or the sentence may be more lenient." What it the crime being tried isn't murder? That's sort of presumptuous. 66.214.218.24 (talk) 07:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
This has been deleted — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kidsankyran (talk • contribs) 01:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
To a non-lawyer, this page is now looking to be a real mish-mash of general principles, US case law and history in various jurisdictions.
Wouldn't it be better as
....
....jury
etc
jimfbleak 13:21 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
____________________________________
I changed "defenss" back to defenses. I don't know why it was changed. C Yes, this article on the insanity defense does seem to be a little disorganized. Maybe the opening paragraph should not bring in the idea of an "incompetence defense." Later in the article, incompetence is distinguished from insanity, but incompetence seems to be at the time of the trial, whereas insanity is at the time of the crime. I don't know it both ideas need to be in this article.
Also, there seems to be too many major headings toward the end. Maybe all the rules, acts and tests at the end could be put in chronological order in a section called History of the law."
Just an idea from a non-lawyer. Norm2 July 17, 2003.
Yes, it's completely disorganised and is poorly referenced. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I also agree. How would you propose to organize it better? I'm not fond of the "History of the Law" idea, because that implies that there's a single stature defining the defense, but in actuality, different countries have different laws. Any ideas? Sleddog116 (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
All common law countries tend to have had the M'Naghten Rules (which is not a statute) initially, so that's a commonality. I have no idea about those jurisdictions with civilian codes, except I know a little about Scottish law on mental condition defences. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be better to have specific pages about the insanity defence in particular countries? It might be good to still have a page about the insanity defense in general, however. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not meaning that all countries could have a section. At the moment, this is largely US law and some English law and Scots law - the rest of the world is hardly mentioned. The reason I mention this is that if done properly the insanity defence in English law would easily take more than the contents of this page. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 10:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The US is a common law country! The UK has a written constitution too, just not a codified one. Yes, the history of the defence is better than the history of THE law, which is for the reasons you mention incorrect. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 10:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh yes, there are plenty of countries that have a civilian code (Scotland being a sort of civilian code jurisdiction), and they tend to have totally different ways of dealing with the criminally insane - Sweden and Norway being examples. Hence you would need to have separate sections for common law and civilian law jurisdictions. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 15:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I think Norway's the same, from the reporting of the Breivik situation. I have no specific knowledge of martial law, I'm afraid. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I've moved the section about the "ultimate issue" to by the section of expert testimony on insanity, it made more sense to put it there. I've altered the bit about expert testimony because as it was, it only pertained to the M'Naghten Rules. I hope that's OK, nothing contentious there. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
We need to add something about diminished responsibility in the Uk in the second paragraph - there must be something there originally otherwise the reference to diminished responsibility not being a defence in the US doesn't make sense. I need to look up the statute first. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
In Foucha v. Louisiana (1992) which "supreme court" made this ruling? This is important as this is an international site and there is a "supreme court" in almost every country. 64.26.170.107 07:04, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The case of Foucha v. Louisiana was decided by the Supreme Court of the United States. I am a trial attorney and am familiar with that case.Sinmeta 18:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
also a member of the legal profession- the cite to Foucha is 504 US 71 (1992).
How many other nations have the authority to rule on cases involving Louisiana? 72.178.131.225 23:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
"Defendants found not guilty by reason of insanity are generally placed in a mental institution" - this is NOT the case in England and Wales. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Merged External link from Plea of temporary insanity to this page. Plea of temporary insanity currently redirects to this page as it was a stub and poorly written at that. -- Long, Tall Texan 23:40, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
We definitely need examples of non-US rules. David.Monniaux 19:36, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I absolutely concur. This article is US-centric, although it is informative and interesting. Unfortunately, I do not have much knowledge at all of non-American legal systems, or I would try to fix it myself. -- disbomber 21:07 PST PDT, 22 May 2005
This is completely US-centric. This phrase in the intro says it all "The insanity defense is available in most jurisdictions that respect human rights and have a rule of law". Implying that if the insanity defense is not available, then the jurisdiction probably doesn't respect human rights or have a rule of law. How ridiculous. -- 66.171.76.140 23:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
"This is completely US-centric. This phrase in the intro says it all "The insanity defense is available in most jurisdictions that respect human rights and have a rule of law". Implying that if the insanity defense is not available, then the jurisdiction probably doesn't respect human rights or have a rule of law. How ridiculous. --" - not ridiculous at all actually, and the above phrase was added by myself, a UK law researcher. Why do you think that statement is ridiculous? Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
The paragraph citing statistics regarding the declining use of the insanity defense did not attempt to prove this notion. It appears to have been based on specific research, but no study was cited. A study of changes in trends regarding the use of this legal defense, as well as a poll regarding public perceptions of same, seem to be referenced. I removed the paragraph. I hope that whoever found the original statistics will put them back up and cite them correctly. I don't mean to be a stickler--it's just that the statistics sound arbitrary and less believable without an actual citation. I also made some minor grammar edits. disbomber 21:06 PST PDT, 22 May 2005
When I lived in Arizona, I heard from a reliable source in local government that a fairly recent Arizona state law says that consent given for sex ("yes, I want to do it", etc.) is legally not considered valid if the person giving consent was under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time. This is relevant to the article's section on temporary insanity through alcohol/drug influence, but unfortunately I can't find an official cite regarding this law. Can anyone--especially Arizona lawyers--help with this? -- disbomber 21:12 PST PDT, 22 May 2005
This has nothing to do with any insanity defence. An insanity defence to a charge of rape would be made on behalf of the offender. Instead, this relates to the capacity of the victim to give consent: that someone seriously intoxicated by drugs or alcohol may not be presumed to have freely given valid consent to sexual activity is not peculiar to Arizona. NRPanikker 16:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
NRPanikker is correct, a person who is intoxicated may not have the capacity to consent. This probably comes from notions in contract law in which a person lacks capacity to consent to a contract if he/she is intoxicated and the other party to the contract knew about the intoxication and took advantage of the intoxicated person, or if the person attempting to give consent was somehow involuntarily intoxicated intoxicated (e.g. they were drugged or someone spiked their food/drink). This, however, usually is only a consideration regarding victim and not the offender, although I suppose in some limited circumstances, such as where the offender is involuntarily intoxicated or where the offender claims to be the actual victim, it could apply to the offender as well. 68.107.134.118 (talk) 14:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "insanity due to drugs or alchohol." There IS a defense called Involuntary Intoxication. This is called into play when the person commits a crime after they have been drugged or intoxicated against their will. However, this also has nothing to do with legal insanity pleas nor laws regarding sexual consent. 72.178.131.225 00:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really found time to check this definitively but surely:
- (my emphasis) cannot be right. Definitely not "1975". I suspect it's a typo for "1875". Cutler 09:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Under "History" it would be informative to have citation of the first case where the M'Naghten Rules were recognised in the U.S.. Cutler 09:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
removed: 60-70% of all insanity pleas are not in murder cases.
I have no idea where this statistic came from, because other resources I saw said just the opposite, so I removed it. If someone can cite the source, that's great, but until then, I've included below what I found that says otherwise.
About a third of the way down the page on Crime Library's information on the insanity defense: "But since the insanity defense is utilized almost exclusively in murder cases (it is extremely rare in any other type of offense), the publicity it receives is far out of proportion to its use."
Katsesama 03:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC) It's certainly not the case in the UK that the insanity plea is only used for murder cases, especially since 1991 when compulsory detention at HM's pleasure was eliminatedJack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 22:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I've added a brief link to Diminished responsibility at the end of the opening paragraph of the main page, because this is a closely related topic. I don't know if the link could be added in a better way. (Peter Ells 23 August 2006.)
The beginning of this article is incorrect. It states "In criminal trials, the insanity defense is where the defendant claims they are not responsible for their actions due to mental health problems". This is not altogether accurate because this defense does not always claim that the defendant is "not responsible" for their actions. Rather, it would be more correct to say that "the defendant did not have the mental capacity to be held criminally accountable for his/her actions." 68.107.134.118 (talk) 14:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
This section seems to add nothing valuable to the article. I would suggest deleting it. Tvaughan1 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is the name of this article "Insanity defence" when it is in the category of "Criminal defenses" and the opening sentence says "Insanity defenses"? I think it should be changed to "Insanity defense". Comrade4·2 03:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I reverted to the last edit because of vandalism...
"Stay away from Texas"??? lol
Looking at the history it seems to happen alot in this artical....
StarDolph 05:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
In the introductory section (before the TOC), the word "wrong" links to "evil" ("...guilt is determined by examining if the defendant was capable of distinguishing right and wrong.")
Is that supposed to be a joke? Shouldn't it link to illegal or something else? Equating "wrong" with "evil" seems slanted to me, at the very least editorial.--AveryG 16:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily... it seems to suggest somewhere on this page that one of the standards for the insanity defence is the inability to tell that an action is not just legally, but also morally wrong... In this case, the link to evil would be a correct one... 74.13.68.9 (talk) 04:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
From the article: Angie Cannon said it best in Sniper Insanity when she wrote, “Let's sneak in crappy advertising into wikipedia articles.” 217.235.113.75 19:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC) Even if a person can be proven insane at the time of the crime isn't it more important to protect the rest of society?? Incarceration is not just about punishment for a crime but prevention of future crimes by the individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.27.33 (talk) 08:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The substantial capacity test is the American Law Institute model. The American Law Institute (ALI) published the Model Penal Code (MPC) in 1962. With reference to insanity, the MPC says that "a person is not responsible for criminal conduct if at the time of such conduct as a result of mental disease or defect he lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law." The phrase "substantial capacity" comes directly from the ALI's definition of insanity in the MPC, which is why there is no need to have two sections, so I'm going to delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apfg (talk • contribs) 05:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the Brawner test should be deleted. All of the other tests listed are ones used in at least one other jurisdiction—Brawner is no longer good law, and even when it was good law in its jurisdiction, was not of any particular conceptual signifiance. Although the Durham test is only used in New Hampshire, its significance is derived from the fact that it was the first (and only) major attempt to create an objective insanity standard.
Also, the incorrect description of Brawner suggests that the person who wrote the section doesn't really understand the legal system. Brawner could not have "set aside" Durham, since the case was not within the DC Circuit's jurisdiction. Further, Durham would not have "set aside" Durham—it would have overruled it.
The only tests that should be included are: M'Naghten, Irresistible Impulse, Durham, MPC, and the federal standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apfg (talk • contribs) 06:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I am in the process of reorganizing information on the insanity defense in the US. There are important 8th and 14th amendment issues with respect to the insanity defense that have not adequately been covered that I will add as I have time.Apfg (talk) 08:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Sleddog, not sure what's not "neutral" about the statement that all jurisdictions with respect for human rights and the rule of law have some form of the insanity defence, whatever name it is given. It's certainly true that post-Hinckley despite comprehensive reform of the law on insanity no state has been able to completely abolish provisions for the criminally insane. It hardly seems a contentious statement to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doc insanity (talk • contribs) 17:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
No, it's not an overgeneralisation at all. "Unencyclopaedic"? What does that even mean? This is nonsense of the highest order. I give up. Carry on wrecking the article, Sleddog. You've consistently put your interpretation of what "encyclopaedia" means before actually getting the facts right. I think you've got delusions of grandeur, since you believe you have the right to make reversions without going to discussion based on your incorrect interpretation of Wiki rules. As I say, it is an uncontroversial statement, and not just a personal opinion. Maybe you should recuse yourself, as I firmly believe that you are not neutral in this matter. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 09:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
My argument certainly hasn't been "dismantled by logical, sound reasoning". We've been here before, when you've overstepped the mark and reverted my changes without even reading the source on occasion. Who are these numerous authors, Sleddog? Not true at all. Do you really think it's unreasonable to hold you to the same standards as you hold other people? Absolutely ridiculous. You know nothing about the law yet feel able to edit a page about the law? Your editing is not constructive in the slightest. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Sleddog, I come to the conclusion that you know nothing about law because the statement I made is so uncontroversial. You claim the statement isn't "neutral", which is rubbish. If you believe it needs more support, that's another matter - but if you're not sure on what basis you've removed the statement, I have to ask you WHY you've removed it. You claimed that NUMEROUS authors had reverted that statement - could you tell me how many in total? Numerous to me implies at least 5 - I see no evidence of that. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Added here for easy reference. Sleddog116 (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Since it's been removed and restored twice now, I would like to restore the consensus version [2] that existed prior to an unexplained (and no edit summary), bold removal. The removal was reverted under valid "Vandalistic" conditions and within the WP:BRD process. Doc insanity then proceeded to undo the revert without any explanation. I gave them an opportunity to self revert their actions. I took the action of restoring the previous consensus as no discussion about this has commenced. During the overnight Doc insanity reverted the restoration again. I have attempted to resolve this on their talk page and have warned them that they are violating the BRD process. Hasteur (talk) 14:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Whose consensus? I see you haven't corrected the numerous inaccuracies in the current article - any particular reason for that? I see that any contentious material provided by myself is removed, and anything else is discussed. Any particular reason for that either? Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 15:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
The correct spelling of the name is McNaughtan according to Walker in Aggravation, Mitigation and Mercy in English Criminal Justice (1998). It's also disputed that McNaughtan had delusions - he was probably a Scottish revolutionary. There are interesting parallels between the reaction to McNaughtan's and Hinckley's trials. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
The same kind of furore and determination to reform the insanity defence followed the two trials. As mentioned, McNaughtan wasn't insane but a revolutionary (and this illustrates one of the pitfalls of the "policeman at the elbow" test) but even if he was, he wouldn't have been insane by the M'Naghten Rules. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 09:47, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Richard Moran has done the more modern research on the topic published in his monograph "Knowing Right from Wrong", and found that his motivations and suspicions were entirely in keeping with the Chartists, who were in fact the subject of Tory spies. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 14:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I'll add some material once I've got the material from the library on it. It's stuff I'm working on at the moment for a chapter, so when I get time I'll add it. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
The assertion that Massachusett's common law made no distinctions between the insane and the criminally responsible is extremely dubious, given that it would have been based on English common law which had recognized insanity as a defence for several hundred years by this stage. I suggest this statement should be removed. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 14:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Something about the explanation of diminished responsibility is bugging me. I think it definitely merits inclusion in the article - diminished capacity plays a very important role in the explanation of insanity defense, after all - but I question the correctness of giving it so much attention in the lead section. We do, after all, already have an article on diminished responsibility. I think all that needs to be included in the lead is the part that says "...not eligible for the insanity defense like intoxication (or, more frequently, diminished capacity), may...". The rest (i.e. the last paragraph of the lead section) should be moved to elsewhere in the article - discussion is still open as to where. There ought to be a subsection (not a full section) under something (perhaps "defining insanity"), and it could be called something like "Insanity versus diminished capacity" or some such. I'm open to suggestions here. Sleddog116 (talk) 04:22, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I would imagine that in the US psychiatrists rather than psychologists are the expert witnesses for the insanity defence. Certainly in the UK there is a statutory requirement for a forensic psychiatrist with appropriate expertise to give evidence. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 11:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
The expert witness system for the US is somewhat more complicated. Look at this quote - maybe it relates somehow?
Because psychiatric testimony played a large role in Hinckley's trial and ultimate verdict, the reliability of using such testimony came under attack in the wake of the trial. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) issued a statement after the trial acknowledging public skepticism of "the nature and the quality of psychiatric testimony in insanity trials." The APA also stated that it would not oppose laws restricting the use of such testimony in insanity cases. In 1984, Congress enacted a statute stating that:
The above quote was taken from this source: [[3]] I don't know if that applies to this somewhow, but perhaps it does. Your thoughts? Sleddog116 (talk) 16:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Because psychiatric testimony played a large role in Hinckley's trial and ultimate verdict - as I suspected, it's psychiatric testimony. I would have thought that as a matter of common law expert witnesses shouldn't be commenting on the defendant's mental state. Expert witnesses are there to help the jury, not replace it. Reform of the insanity defence in the USA preceded Hinckley in any case. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 18:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
This section is misleading. Most defendants at trial are sane, otherwise they will be found unfit to plead or the equivalent rather than going to trial. Jack Hawkins legal academic & Times reader (talk) 11:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. This section is seriously incorrect. In the U.S. at least, in order to proceed in court, a defendant must be able to understand the legal proceedings and participate in a meaningful way. Any mentally ill defendant, including one who is invoking any insanity defense, must be made "competent to stand trial" before the court can continue proceedings. Therefore, any defendant on trial will be mentally competent. "Temporary insanity" is a defense by the accused that he/she was BRIEFLY insane at the time the crime was committed and therefore was incapable of knowing the nature of his/her alleged criminal act. The article should be changed from "The notion of temporary insanity argues that a defendant was insane, but is now sane" to "The notion of temporary insanity argues that a defendant was briefly insane at the time the crime was committed and therefore was incapable of knowing the nature of his/her alleged criminal act." A wonderful example is the famous "Twinkie defense" used as a defense by the accused killer in defense of the murder of San Francisco Mayor George Moscone and his aide Harvey Milk. The killer, Dan White, claimed that a temporary depression that correlated with eating junk food put him into an altered state that changed his behavior to such a degree that he could not understand the nature of his actions. 68.107.134.118 (talk) 14:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
The use of the term “temporary insanity” is incorrect. The only period of time of interest in the use of the insanity defence is at the time of the crime. Thus a person who is insane when he, say, commits homicide, but regains his sanity the next day is still eligible for the defence. Further, one must be careful when discussing insanity at trial. A mental illness - not insanity - that interferes with the person’s ability to assist their attorney or understand the proceedings is the standard. Not insanity Volleyalex (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The context of punishing actions when the people who performed them are considered capable of having done it deliberately forces people to pretend to be incapable of making sensible decisions. Forcing them to keep doing stupid things to keep the appearance up. Instead of assuming that psychiatry can distinguish "real" insanity from "fake", which is untestable since there is only psychiatry to compare psychiatry to, or to frame antipsychiatry as if it demonized people, a third way is to be considered. To simply view the question of whether an action was conscious or not as totally unrelated to the question of whether or not it could be considered cruel, which is logical from both the point that is does not imply should, and that the action has the same consequences anyway.2.68.236.154 (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This article has been renamed to Mental Disorder (Insanity) Defense to enable combination of the similar articles Insanity defense and Mental Disorder Defense. Kidsankyran (undated comment added 01:20, 9 December 2015)
The result of the move request was: Move. We have clear consensus to revert to the stable title. Cúchullain t/c 19:59, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Mental Disorder (Insanity) Defense → Insanity defense – I became aware of this article title change via this edit by Kidsankyran at the Murder article. On December 9, 2015, Kidsankyran moved the Insanity defense article without WP:Consensus; if viewing this from the WP:Requested moves page, see the discussion a little above on this talk page. I argue that per WP:Common name, and per the inappropriate capitalization (see WP:Article titles), this article be moved back to Insanity defense. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
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