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Ireland forms part of the British Isles; there is a discussion in that article on other possible terms for the island group (Islands of the North Atlantic, etc), but "British Isles and Ireland" is non-sensical. "British Isles" is by far the most widely used term for the archipelago and is particularly useful in this article which does not describe a location in Ireland. Warofdreams 17:51, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Edgar did not 'sign over' the Isles to Magnus, because he clearly could not give what he did not possess. The exact political status of the Hebrides had been uncertain for many years. The treaty of 1098 merely attempted to create a clear demarcation, with the Isles going to Magnus and the mainland to Edgar.
The Hebrides sections are weak on the physical geography and the agricultural methods of the region. I will think about what to do about it and encourage others to do also. MartinY 17:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Rcpaterson 02:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have created a Template:Infobox Scottish island for use with Scottish islands which is based on the existing Template:Infobox Scotland place but which contains parameters which may be more useful for smaller islands which don't have their own police force or Lord Lieutenant. Comments are welcome on the associated talk page.
I have created it as a template for all Scottish islands and used an image of a longboat next to the Saltire to emphasise the difference with the Scotland place Template. The said image is called Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg. Before ancient foes of Clan Donald complain, I am assured by User:Calgacus that the proper name for this image is a 'Lymphad' and that its was actually purloined from the Russian wikipedia. He also points out that the same image appears for example at the bottom of Image:Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG[1] and the Sinclair Orkney arms [2] [3] which suggests to me that the lymphad may be appropriate for all our isles whether they have a primarily Celtic or primarily Norse history. This note has been copied in various places including Talk:Orkney Talk:Shetland Talk:Hebrides Talk:Islands of the Clyde etc.
An example of the template may be found at:Flannan Isles
There is space for references. Groupings and population information are available at List of islands of Scotland the latter being based on the 2001 census. Area measurements for the 162 islands of 100 acres or more in size are available in Haswell-Smith, Hamish. (2004) The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh. Canongate. I'd be happy to pass the relevant numbers on if needed, although I doubt I am going to get around to listing all 162. There is more on this subject at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Isn't a historical title of Scottish kings "King of Scotland and The Western Isles", denoting that a) they were considered a separate legal entity from the mainland, and b) they came under Scottish soveriegnity at some period? I'm uncertain, however, if the title is legit or a romantic contrivance. LessHeard vanU 12:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The term 'Western Isles' stands in contradistinction to the 'Northern Isles' of Orkney, Fair Isle and Shetland. I and many others have grown up always knowing the entire Hebridean chain by the centuries old alternative term 'the Western Isles'. It wasn't a term we used "sometimes": it was the standard term, 'the Hebrides' seeming much more romantic or poetic. This perception of those in the Outer Isles who think that they comprise the entirety of the Western Isles is just an attempt to rewrite nomenclature to suit themselves. Some of them even claim that only the Outer Isles are 'really' the Innse Gall. It's complete historical nonsense.
Minimal pairs are: Inner Isles v Outer Isles Inner Hebrides v Outer Hebrides Western Isles v Northern Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.172.23.31 (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
How is this supposed to be pronounced? Zigzig20s 18:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Heb-ri-deez 69.110.26.30 06:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
You may be right, although I for one, and I suspect the majority have no idea as to how IPA works. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 13:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't say I'm keen on the use of the term "archipelago" in this article.
It's a bit of a "fuzzy" word with no technically unambiguous definition, and I personally see the inner and outer isles as being quite distinct, thus two archipelagos.
Due to the potential for confusion and disagreement, I'm inclined to take it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof Wrong (talk • contribs) 13:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
To expand my above point -- the British Isles is "an archipelago". Not only is it a pretty meaningless term, but I don't recall ever having heard the word outside of very technical contexts -- it's not common in the UK at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof Wrong (talk • contribs) 12:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
That's not my experience. See for example:
[Removing indent] Bardcom's last edit to the page says "The word is used in lots of articles. Encyclopedias shouldn't be dumbed down"
I don't care what other articles say, and I was of the understanding that other articles on wikipedia can't be cited as justification in this way.
While I agree that Wikipedia should not be "dumbed down", I do not think it should be artificially intellectualised either. Archipelago is not a word in common currency. I asked three people today, all university graduates. The first thought it was "some kind of specific region on land" (and thought I'd spelt it wrong), the second had never heard of it, and the third didn't recognise it at first, but then said "isn't that a small group of islands" and said the Hebrides didn't fit his notion of an archipelago.
As I've already said, in the British National Corpus (spoken) it only comes up in an academic lecture.
What does "archipelago" do for the article that "group of islands" doesn't do in simpler, easier to understand English?
Until someone can give a valid reason for use of the word over the simpler alternative, I will continue to revert it out.Prof Wrong (talk) 18:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Prof, I am sure you mean no harm, but this is not The Western Isles. Your view is one that I have seen before in reference to social sciences articles, but a quick glimpse at (for example) Hilbert's tenth problem or Peridotite suggest there is whole world of vocabulary on offer on Wikipedia articles. This is an article in need of an enormous amount of improvement. Your efforts might be better spent in adding content than quibbling about the existing wording. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 22:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The only wikipedia rule that is relevant here is "concensus" -- and as it's two against one, you win. Prof Wrong (talk) 11:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, put Gillen back in then. Here's another reference: http://calvin.st-andrews.ac.uk/external_relations/news_article.cfm?reference=252 (and it's associated pages). I'll leave it up to you to format the reference I've added (I'm a bit green on this stuff at the moment), but I don't rate the tourist board one at all. Mister Flash (talk) 16:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Hebrides: "The Hebrides were settled during the Mesolithic era around 6500 BC, after the climatic conditions improved enough to sustain human settlement."
History of the Outer Hebrides: "The Hebrides were settled early on in the settlement of the British Isles, perhaps as early as the Mesolithic era, around 8500-8250 BC, after the climatic conditions improved enough to sustain human settlement."
Inner Hebrides: "The Hebrides were settled early on in the settlement of the British Isles, perhaps as early as the Mesolithic era, around 8500-8250 BC, after the climatic conditions improved enough to sustain human settlement."
Something went wrong here. I guess the date '8500-8250' originally wasn't 'BC' but 'before now' and the authors forgot to subtract '2000' to get '6500-6250' which would match to the date in the Hebrides-article. I consider 6500 BC more likely, compared with the articles about Orkney and Shetland. And I would prefer if it is written '6500 - 6250' with spaces between the words. Truchses (talk) 19:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the sentence "The name 'Hebrides' is thought to be a misunderstanding of the classical Latin name Hebudes, where u was misread ri." I'd love to have more detail, like
Any information gratefully received (and should go into the article). SamuelTheGhost (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
"General view of the Hebrides"...? No it isn't - it's a view (with added plane wing) of part of one of the islands - maybe Lewis, or Uist, I don't know. Can someone with local knowledge clarify this please? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Mykleavens (talk) 13:28, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
1. "In the past the Outer Hebrides were often referred to as the Long Isle" — should "Long Isle" be plural?
2. Prehistory — citation for the year 6500BC? Note: I realise some citations cover more than one sentence or even a whole paragraph but if in doubt I will include a point in this list.
3. Citation re Ketill Flatnose?
4. Norwegian control — "various islands petty kingdoms" needs to be revised for clarity: is it missing an apostrophe?
5. Scottish control — direct citations needed for quotation in this sentence: In 1598, King James VI authorised some "Gentleman Adventurers" from Fife to civilise the "most barbarous Isle of Lewis".
6. Citation needed for "the colonists were driven out by local forces commanded by Murdoch and Neil MacLeod".
7. Clarity needed re "The Seaforth's royalist inclinations". Is the Seaforth singular or plural? Misplaced apostrophe?
8. Please provide specific links for both Jacobite risings in this phrase: "in the "15" and again in the 1745 rising".
9. "The UK government's strategy". Not sure about the use of "UK" here and suggest "British government" would be more correct for that period. What do you think?
10. Need a citation for "English-speaking landlords whose main concern was the revenues..."
11. I have a general comment about syntax as I have made numerous copyedits whilst reading and these have often seemed to be around the use of commas and semi-colons. For example, an extensive list of clauses like "Roads and quays were built..." needs semi-colons. Please watch use of "and" after a comma.
12. Citation needed for "large scale emigration became endemic".
13. Does the 1886 Crofters' Act citation cover the sentence about the "Battle of the Braes"?
14. Modern economy. Need to clarify "throughout the late 19th and 20th centuries" which is ambiguous. Please provide a more specific period: e.g. "from the late 19th century to the middle of the 20th century".
15. The word "nonetheless" is used twice in one small section. Please use an alternative. Same applies to overuse of "recent".
16. Re Mendelssohn, you should say he "composed" the overture rather than wrote it. Ditto re Bantock.
17. Citation(s) needed for association with islands of Ian Anderson & co.
18. Citations needed re Compton Mackenzie and George Orwell. Also re Enya's song.
19. Language. Citation needed for arrival and use of Scottish Gaelic from Ireland.
20. Language. Citation(s) needed for prevalence of Old Norse and the obliteration of earlier place names.
21. Language. Citation needed re Sabhal Mòr Ostaig based on Skye and Islay.
22. Repeated links. Needs to be addressed throughout. I have noticed repeat links of, for example, Western Isles and Scotland.
23. Please clarify "under colonised".
24. Etymology. Citation needed for Ptolemy.
25. Presumably the hedgehog cull brought forth increased usage of articulated lorries?
26. Benbecula image should be moved right as it has created imbalance and whitespace.
27. The Caledonian MacBrayne image at the top has created a stack, given that the map is the primary image and should stay put, so please relocate the ship image.
First pass completed - will return asap for the rest. Many thanks for this comprehensive review. Ben MacDui 20:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
As a guide to the article's current state, ahead of a formal review against the GA criteria, it rates as follows against standard B-class criteria:
1. It is suitably referenced and all major points have appropriate inline citations.
2. It reasonably covers the topic and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies.
3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content.
4. It is free from major grammatical errors.
5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images or diagrams.
6. It is fully and correctly categorised and carries all appropriate templates.
Numerous citations are still required and so I think the article should currently be rated C-class according to assessment criteria. I need to perform a detailed review to decide if the scope is adequate, though my first impression is that it is quite comprehensive. I need to think about categories and templates but, again, there is nothing obviously missing.
The lead and structure are certainly there but I must compare the lead with the text for GA purposes. Although there are no major problems with grammar and spelling, you need to ensure that a full copyedit is done before nomination to weed out the minor errors and ambiguities: my copyedit has been more extensive than I would have expected.
The images, especially the maps, are excellent and there are only a couple of positioning aspects to consider.
I'm placing the review on hold for the time being as there are a lot of points above but I'm confident that, once these are addressed, this article will eventually reach GA. I'll watch it and help where I can. --Mykleavens (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
well-written:
factually accurate and verifiable:
broad in its coverage:
neutral –
stable –
illustrated, if possible, by images:
Thank you for addressing the points I raised. You are right that one of them was a rhetorical question! I could see on first reading that this is not going to be merely a good article but potentially an excellent article that will one day be featured; and so I decided to mark it strictly especially re the citations as this will help it towards FA status. It is a very interesting piece. I've been to Skye so have had a good flavour of the place and you have put forward some fascinating information, especially around the turbulent history. Well done and good luck when you inevitably nominate it for a feature. --Mykleavens (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
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In common usage, people who are not from the islands, even if they are British and especially if they are not Gaelic-speaking, are considered "foreign" and called "white settlers" in English or "Gall" (non-Gael) in Gaelic. See here. I could cite more examples if you'd like. Alázhlis (talk) 09:53, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hi User:CelticBrian, I reverted one of your edits for 1) opinion-based statement that Gaelic culture only survives in the Hebrides, 2) implication that Gaelic music is now limited to the Hebrides (much of the recordings, even by Hebridean-based artists, are made in Glasgow or Inverness, and an increasing number of artists such as Rachel Walker have no connection to the Gàidhealtachd at all). Catrìona (talk) 19:19, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
1. Why is the entry for the "Isle of Ewe" not simply "Ewe"? Other islands like Iona or Raasay do not have entries like "Isle of Iona" or "Isle of Raasay".
2. "Occupation at a site on Rùm is dated to 8590 ±95 uncorrected radiocarbon years BP".
Is there are reason for adopting BP instead of using a more accurate date followed by BC? As time goes by the given BP figure needs to be constantly updated which doesn't make sense and it makes it hard to remember.
3. The subsection called "Norwegian control" uses the word "Norwegian" 5 times (including the title of the subsection itself). I think the word should be replaced by "Norse" which is more chronologically appropriate since "Norwegian" is probably anachronistic. I welcome comments from experts on this specific subject.
4. "A rebellion by his nephew, Alexander of Lochalsh provoked an exasperated James IV to forfeit the family's lands in 1493."
This should be followed by a short but clear explanation.
5. "The widespread immigration of mainlanders, particularly non-Gaelic speakers, has been a subject of controversy".
Expand and explain or remove.
ICE77 (talk) 06:37, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
The difference between "English-speaking" and "English" is surely blindingly obvious and to change one for the other deliberately alters what is being said. As "English" indicates origins in England, to substitute the word for "English-speaking" falsely excludes the influence of English-speakers from elsewhere, particularly, notably and, again blindingly obviously, those from Scotland. Or are you perhaps making a point? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
Your weird concept of geographic nationalism doesn't exist in the real world, Mutt. Ethnic groups are not tied to geography even if they establish a traditional homeland for themselves. Again need we hyphenate every use of the term Norse and Gaelic and Brittonic with -speaking? It is completely redundant. You're already grouping all English speakers as a people, the -speaking is redundant and you're applying it selectively to one group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 23:36, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
Mutt you did express such views. Your opening comment in this discussion expressed those exact views, namely that ethnic English people from Scotland are distinct from ethnic English people from England, because of distinct political identities? But Celtic-speaking and Norse-speaking peoples do not have distinct political identites?
Yes, your words are above, Mutt. And in that opening comment you mention how English-speaking people from Scotland with English surnames are somehow distinct from English-speaking people from England with English surnames because? You've acknowledged ethnic English people can exist outside of England? So why the distinction between English-speaking and English just because one group is from another geographic area?
Are you saying English-speaking people with English surnames from Scotland are not English in an ethnic sense? What exactly are they then, Mutt? How would you define them in an ethnolinguistic sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
To put this into perspective for you you're saying native English speakers born in Scotland with English surnames are... Scottish yes? Historically and today they're ethnically distinct from native English speakers born in England with English surnames, because they existed in what was formerly a separate political state.
Well what if a native Russian speaker is born and raised in Scotland with a Russian surname. What is he, Mutt? Is he ethnically Scottish too? If you can't distinguish between ethnolinguistic and political identities then you shouldn't really be editing Wikipedia in the first place.
Better still what would you call someone from Wales when it was legally a part of England, Mutt? Is a Welsh speaker from the Kingdom of England English because he is from the country of England? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 00:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, Mutt, I'm trying to address the points you raised against my edits. Namely that English-speaking and English mean the same thing, at least in this context. And that I can't understand why you don't want -speaking affixed to every ethnic group of the British Isles, just the English it seems.
And if that is the case then why, exactly? There's better places to discuss this maybe but your stance on distinguishing between [ethnic group] and [ethnic group]-speaking seems selective and hypocritical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 00:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
I question the following: "The British government's strategy was to estrange the clan chiefs from their kinsmen and turn their descendants into English-speaking landlords whose main concern was the revenues their estates brought rather than the welfare of those who lived on them." (refers to post-Culloden activity). Both the cited reference (Hunter) and other historians make clear that a sequence of monarchs and governments had sought to impose control on Hebridean clan chiefs. Picking out the single instance of post-Culloden repression is misleading in its brevity. Without mention of other factors that created "landlordism" among clan chiefs, this single sentence should not appear in the article. As an alternative to deletion, the article could mention the Statutes of Iona (which were specifically targeted at Hebridean chiefs), which, among other things, compelled eldest sons of more affluent families to be educated in English-speaking schools. The rising need for cash among clan chiefs was also derived from the obligation to attend the Privy Council in Edinburgh, and large financial sureties required for the good behaviour of their clansmen. (This whole picture then moves into the problem of chronic debts and the resultant largescale clearout of hereditary landowners.)
The mention of the clearances has no reference to the potato famine. This is a particular problem as Hunter is used extensively as a reference, yet he is the historian who has oversimplified his understanding of the famine (as he acknowledges in the preface to the second edition of The Making of the Crofting Community). The famine was, for many, the proximate cause of emigration. At a minimum, it would be better to use more than one source and include a link to the Highland potato famine. It would be entirely wrong for a reader of this article to go away with the impression that the sole reason for clearances in the Hebrides was the introduction of sheep.
Achieving the above improvements without creating too much additional text will be a challenge.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 10:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Why are some of the island names italicized in the tables? There doesn’t appear to be any explanation. 99.73.35.160 (talk) 18:48, 14 January 2022 (UTC)