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Surely only one stub-tag should be used. It look confusing with the two that are now used. I am going to go ahead and remove the "italian biography" one and keep the "biography related chess" one, since it seems to be the most fitting. --CygnusPius 12:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, not sure if anyone's going to read this seeing as the last comment was a year and a half ago. But this guy did not 'use' the Giuoco Piano, it was named after him.
This article was rated Top. In my view it's only high, as a historical figure he's not so astounding, so have changed the rating accordingly. If you believe otherwise then change it again, but would be helpful to leave a reason. ChessCreator (talk) 15:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is Greco mate not discussed? This mate was named after him. Here is one link i have provided that discusses Greco Mate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.157.221 (talk) 15:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I remember that I read, a long time ago, about two twin chess problems of "mate in two", with a story around them based on Greco.
IIRC, the story was:
Does anyone know where is the source for this? Albmont (talk) 13:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Move 5. O-O is impossible because the undeveloped Knight is at g1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.184.22 (talk) 22:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The name would point to a Greek or Italo-Greek ancestry, is anything know about that? -- 217.190.216.15 (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Nothing is certain, but have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people
The claim that Greco's games number 77 must be false. This number stem from Professor Hoffman's text (Hoffmann was a pseudonym for Angelo Lewis), which combined games with similar beginnings from earlier texts. Hoffmann, The Games of Greco (1900). Greco / Francis Beale, The Royall Game of Chesse-Play (1656) contains 94 numbered Gambetts, plus an example each of Fool's Mate and Scholar's Mate. William Lewis, The Games of Gioachino Greco (1819) contains 168 games. Some of these games were copied by Greco from earlier writers, but the number of his games must exceed the 77 figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.242.121 (talk) 02:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
There are certainly more than 77, as you say. In fact, Greco (probably? possibly?) wrote some manuscripts that are either lost or unknown, so who knows how many there actually are. This, combined with the uncertainty of the authorship of many of Lewis', means that we really shouldn't be giving a definitive count of games. Something like "dozens" might be appropriate, but I have not included that in my edits. Mack Robot (talk) 02:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Averbakh attributes the study to Greco, dating it 1623, in his Chess Middlegames: Essential Knowledge but is there any confirmation of this? The English Greco translation here doesn't contain any endgames, but there are other reprints/translations out there which may confirm his authorship. MaxBrowne (talk) 06:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I would also love to know more about this endgame. The referenced 1656 book gives a stalemate as a win, rather than a draw. (There is an error in a reader's annotation in the specific version I viewed that highlights this confusion). Of course, the study only makes sense if you count a stalemate as a draw- otherwise, the wrong-rook pawn is a forced win regardless. Has anyone actually seen something written by Greco that suggests this study is his composition? As it is now this doesn't make any sense. Mack Robot (talk) 01:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
UPDATE: It turns out that the 1656 book is not meant to be comprehensive; there are many Greco manuals, written at different times, and Herringman chooses from among them. So when the Lawes of Chess are given in that book, they are a version of Greco's Lawes appropriate to a specific audience- presumably the English. That's why the study is not included there- it wouldn't make sense under the given (English) stalemate rules. In another manual, Greco presumably had other stalemate rules for another audience... and would have included that endgame. So there is no contradiction here; the rules of chess were not yet standardized. I call this resolved. Mack Robot (talk) 02:23, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The title of the article claims that his first name was Gioachino, but the first words retype it as Gioacchino. Wich one is correct? Kasparov, in his My Great Pedecessors, Part I, spells it as Gioacchino. Which one is correct?
I have seen many different spellings. Gioachino, Gioacchino, Gioachimo, Bioacchimo... Gioachino tends to show up the most, so that is what I believe we should use. This could be resolved by looking at his manuscripts, where he must have signed his name, but I can't find them. Mack Robot (talk) 02:25, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
For anyone who's curious about the SBC reference here, that is the famous "batgirl" (https://www.chess.com/member/batgirl), who as far as I know has kept her last name hidden. But she's been researching and posting and blogging about chess history online basically forever, and was a huge help in getting me sources to expand this article. So that isn't exactly the sketchiest of internet sources. Mack Robot (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
This article relies too heavily on Bill Wall's page, which at best is a list of claims that he failed to authenticate. No other source to my knowledge asserts the surname that Wall claims. If you ask him for a source, he will likely have no idea. Some of Wall's list of "facts" are undoubtedly true. Other claims almost certainly false (I could list several). Let the internal inconsistency of his website article suffice. He states that Greco's 1625 Paris MSS are "in the same careless scribble" as earlier MSS and then five paragraphs later notes that Greco's handwriting improved over time. The Paris MSS are the last ones Greco made. He notes correctly that Beale's edition of Greco's games number 94 "Gambetts" and then presents "the 78 games" of Greco at the end of the article. Reliance on such sloppy work as Wall's leads editors of this page to perpetuate errors.JStripes (talk) 15:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Ah, I disagree with you both completely! "Surname" has one modern meaning, "a hereditary name common to all members of a family, as distinct from a given name." (Thanks Google!) But it has an archaic meaning: "a name, title, or epithet added to a person's name, especially one indicating their birthplace or a particular quality or achievement".
"il Calabrese" is only a surname under the archaic definition, that is, for Murray. We cannot rightly call "il Calabrese" a surname, because we use th modern sense.
"Cusentino", however, is a surname in the modern sense. So it should be added to his name, because a surname is... part of a person's name. I'm not suggesting a title change, JStripes. I'm just saying his full name needs to include his surname.
I'm also a little confused by why you think "Cusentino" appearing in both a MS and Murray means it is questionable, somehow. A huge amount of this page relies on Murray... and a single reliable source is enough to include them. Must we have two sources for every fact? Mack Robot (talk) 05:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Cusentino is questionable because it is not how anyone writes about the subject. Everyone calls him Greco, not Cusentino. This is standard practice. Having an article with Cusentino as part of the title confuses readers. Greco may be a nickname (some have speculated that he had Greek parents and there were certainly many of Greek origin in Calabria when he was born) and Cusentino might be his family name, but no one calls him Cusentino. Everyone calls him Greco.JStripes (talk) 05:38, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Historians are rarely confident of a fact when they have only two sources. Of course, for a real historian, the manuscript is the only source. Murray is an interpretation. JStripes (talk) 05:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Alas, here we are not real historians. Here we are simply wiki-folk. And we can't really interpret the manuscripts, because that's Original Research. We require one reliable source for each relevant fact in an article for it to be included. And no source seems to be claiming that Cusentino was not his surname, so this isn't really much of a controversy. Murray is an acceptable source + no acceptable source contradicts Murray = We report what Murray says. And this is also why we have inline citations- so anyone can see 'Cusentino' comes from Murray. Lastly before I give this up for the night, I would direct you to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography , which indicates that we should use Greco's entire name like in one of their examples, regardless of how people actually reference him.
(Also, hello! I recognize you from cg. I apologize if I'm getting a little short, but as you might realize from the edit history, this page is my baby. And these days one must be extra-protective of a Greco page from roaming 'biographers.') Mack Robot (talk) 06:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I guess what I'm saying is- I agree with you on basically everything. Is it weird that only Murray mentions Cusentino? Yes. Does anybody these days use Cusentino? No. But it isn't for us to determine truth. We simply turn sources into articles, like wiki-producing automata. And NOW I will sleep. Mack Robot (talk) 07:20, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
"The adjective 'Cusentino' in the title refers to the Calabrian province Cosenza, and Celico (mentioned in the Libretto) belongs to it." Peter J. Monté, The Classical Era of Modern Chess (2014). Monté cites an Italian language article by A. Sanvito, published in Studien zur Schachgeschichte (2008). Monté's work should be favored over Murray.JStripes (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
At present, all that remains in the article that is credited to Wall is, "and at a young age to make a living over the board.[9][unreliable source?] Mariano Marano, a Sicilian priest[9][unreliable source?] and eminent Italian player of the day, took him as a student." Peter J. Monté disputes all of it through a thorough examination of the little that Salvio (1634) offers concerning Greco. He deals with Salvio's lack of credibility in greater detail in an earlier portion of the book. Salvio, incidentally, states that Marano defeated Greco in Spain, while later works challenge this claim. Salvio's claim about them having known each other prior is a single word (ritrovò), which Monté states means "found or found again" (p. 319). He further traces the line of references that assert a larger role for Marano in Greco's past, as well as skepticism by von der Lasa. Salvio refers to Marano and Greco as rivals. My inclination is to delete the passage I quote in this note, but will wait for a response from others.JStripes (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm curious; have you read the von der Lasa? Some of those Wall-facts can be referenced to him. The Morano-as-teacher he says is false; Morano-as-Sicilian he says is true; at-a-young-age he says is true. Of course, it's in German. But Google Books has recently become a magic translator... https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=c6JAAAAAcAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP1 If you're OK with having the vdL reference in German, I can use that as the reference for these (or both references if you want?), since it's much easier to access online than the Monte. Mack Robot (talk) 03:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Actually, wait. It sounds like the Monte disagrees about some of those. What's Monte's opinion of von der Lasa? I can't get to that book. Mack Robot (talk) 03:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The fortune that Greco had of 5000 Scudi (term used by Salvio (1634)--primary source) is sometimes translated crowns and sometimes scudi. Of course, scudi (plural of scudo) is an Italian currency and this fortune was acquired in France. He probably had livres (French coins), but I don't recall seeing that expression in English language texts about Greco. Richard Eales, Chess: The History of a Game (1985), who is more careful than most, states only a "great sum" (87). Perhaps the article should state, "said to be the equivalent of 5000 crowns". I do not think it is standard convention to capitalize currencies.JStripes (talk) 13:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I believe the best way to handle naming Greco's manuscripts is in a bibliography section, rather than working them into the rest of the article. If anyone feels like they all should be included (and wants to actually do it!), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_James#Bibliography seems to be a good guide. I'd do it if someone can hunt down an actual list somewhere else, but as it is I can't keep them straight.Mack Robot (talk) 04:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
[Event "?"] [Site "London"] [Date "1623.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Greco, Gioachino"] [Black "NN"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C53"] [PlyCount "69"] [SourceTitle "Francis Beale's Greco"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Qe7 5. O-O d6 6. d4 Bb6 7. Bg5 f6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Nxg5 fxg5 10. Qh5+ Kf8 11. Bxg5 Qe8 12. Qf3+ Kg7 13. Bxg8 Kxg8 14. d5 Ne7 15. Bf6 Qf7 16. Nd2 h6 17. Bxh8 Qxf3 18. Nxf3 Kxh8 19. h3 Bd7 20. c4 Bd4 21. Nxd4 exd4 22. Rad1 c5 23. f4 Rf8 24. e5 dxe5 25. fxe5 Rxf1+ 26. Rxf1 Kg8 27. e6 Bc8 28. d6 Nc6 29. d7 Bxd7 30. exd7 d3 31. Re1 d2 32. Re8+ Kg7 33. d8=Q Nxd8 34. Rxd8 Kf7 35. Rxd2 1-0 JStripes (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I believe we should have two or three games, illustrating the smothered mate (already included), Greco's Mate (not yet included), and one that's not so short and 'trappy'. (Too many people's impression these days, is that Greco was just a composer of 7-move traps. I used the one above in Talk for now.) If those can be done in two games, all the better. And compositions, the wrong-rook pawn is probably the most well-known? But if someone runs into a second good one, that might be nice too.Mack Robot (talk) 04:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
There's a new sentence in the introduction here, "Willard Fiske asserted in Book of the First American Chess Congress (1959) that Greco was born in Morea, but no evidence supports this claim.[8]" Do we even need this? It's one (probably-false) statement, from an author we don't otherwise use. This seems like it could be taken out by analogy to Quale's insufficient-weight reasoning with Cusentino.
This whole did-he-or-didn't-he-visit-Paris-in-1621 thing is really odd. Murray seems utterly convinced Greco was there the first time, and gives further details about the visit. von der Lasa talks more about visit too (https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=c6JAAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA119)
What's Montes reasoning? Given that it's possible that there were manuscripts from Paris-1621, but that they've been lost, I'm not sure their nonexistence is such strong evidence to really undercut the Paris-1621 claim from Murray and vdL... As of now I've made that Monte objection weaker, but feel free to revert if you feel strongly about it. Mack Robot (talk) 00:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The Long_s will be unfamiliar to the majority of readers, having not been used since the 18th century. Should we use it when quoting old texts? I think it will just confuse modern readers, who might mistake it for an f. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)