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The contents of the African Americans and the G.I. Bill page were merged into G.I. Bill on September 27, 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
First, the articles on VEAP and MGIB should remain on their own as they are legislation passed many years after the Serviceman's Readjustment Act of 1944. Any vet knows of the MGIB today and will likely have never heard of any "readjustment act". I suppose the article on the Serviceman's Readjustment Act could have a short discussion on how education benefits have morphed into today's GI Bill but todays benefits are only a legacy of the 1944 legislation.
I hate to sound critical but there are serious problems with the entries on MGIB, VEAP and the MGIB comparison table that is attached to the Serviceman's Readjustment Act of 1944 article. Some of the information is inaccurate and it is entirely incomplete.
Wikipedia should consider sticking to some basic facts about each of these programs and not try to enter into specifics. The rules in dealing with the payment and entitlement of these benefits are contained in thousands of pages of combined Regulations, US Code and finally the manuals used by those at the Veterans Administration who actually process the benefits for our veterans. With every rule there is an exception and for every exception there is another rule and they change constantly! What few words spoken of on the MGIB article regarding entitlement and the time limit within which benefits are required to be used is inadequate, inaccurate and incomplete. The problem I am trying to get across is that in order to make it complete would require volumes which already exist and are maintained by the experts.
In closing, please cut these articles out as they exist and provide basic facts about each benefit type and possibly a historical reference. Anything a person needs to know and a link to ask someone a question can be found at http://www.gibill.va.gov/ Wspruce 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)bill 12/12/06
Less talk, more action, and Yes I take offense to what you wrote.
When a person think of GI BILL they think of educational benefits. As a result of an ever changing environment, politics, and incentives by the Military and U.S. Government; The GI BILL has evolved as well. Now if you feel like the table does not provide a brief overview of what is available, and different characteristics among the different types incentives available. Then feel free to do something about it. But I seriously doubt that you can do anything better.
I do not have direct experience with every different type of educational benefits, the one's I do have direct experience with is as follows: CH 30, CH 1606, CH 1607, Tuition Assistance, and Student Loan Repayment Program. And I assure you Tuition Assistance, and Student Loan Repayment Program, is not found on the VA website, however they are educational benefits provided by the military.
Also what is written, and what is done are two different things in the real world. And I can assure you I know this for a fact, because I am a (44C) Financial Management Technician in the Military. Service Members come to me and ask me how you do this, in order to get this. When I have to explain to an Reservist, that if they decide to go in the IRR or not extend there contract, guess what your Educational Benefits are terminated. "But, but my recruiter said I have 10 year to use it. " guess what the recruiter did not tell you everything, and sometimes when I talk to the VA rep, I know more than they do. But you are right there is alway an exception, but how many service members know about it. That chart is only basically a rule of thumb, you click on the link for more detail. Paul.Paquette 23:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I notice that the use of "GI" w/o periods is quite common out there (like on the illustration in this very article), so we might consider using that instead of the punctuated variant.
Also, if sticking with a punctuated variant, shouldn't we rather use "G.I." w/o a space in between the letters? Looks much better IMO, and perhaps it is just as grammatically correct? --Wernher 20:31, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The term 'democratized' seems a bit offensive for all the reasons stated on the page 'African Americans and the GI-bill'. Perhaps it could be clarified by saying that it helped the white middle class become upwardly mobile while leaving blacks behind in the inner-cities?
This needs to be standardized throughout. GI or G.I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.147.203.129 (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, instead of hand-wringing about the usage for 5 years, I was WP:BOLD and fixed it! (When talking about GIs, we say Gee-Eye. We don't say Gee-period-Eye-period. But in print the G.I. comes across more clearly.)--S. Rich (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The whites had introduced racial policies to shut out African Americans from suburban communities but it should be argued that Amendment 14 guarantees the rights of all citizens of United States: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Of course African Americans buying suburban homes not unconstitutional! So what is written is simply fact.
It is only the barriers set by property companies that bar African Americans buying houses. Then the governments did not stop this. Sigh!
Concerned 07:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The certification section of the article sounds like it's being written by an army recruiter and needs to be changed to a more neutral, historic stance.
The article on the GI Bill makes the assumption that there are cities and suburban towns, and the suburbs were populated entirely from the urban neighborhoods. While this might explain what became known as the "white flight" phenomenon of the 1960s and 1970s, the late 1940s and 1950s were a different era.
During WWII there was a population shift from the rural to old and new manufacturing centers. In addition, many people decided to move to California, which had suburban communities surrounding the defense plants. With the return of millions of GIs in 1945, the demand for housing outstripped availability. The GI Bill, signed by FDR, was intended to provide a smooth social transition from war time to peace time and not to perpetuate historical patterns of discrimination (in fact the home loans specifically prohibited discrimination).
Not all suburban communities were segregated or restricted on ethnic lines, and the newer housing developments tended to be open to diversity. Many former GIs wanted to live in affordable detached houses close to schools, parks, and libraries. They wanted quiet neighborhoods, without crime and traffic, with room for lawns and gardens. The suburbs were perfect for these young families because these communities offered the appeal of the small rural towns with the conveniences of modern cities.
The urban political and social establishment immediately saw a challenge to their traditional position of power and authority, but could do little to actually stop the growth of the suburbs. The old political machines and union bosses were dismayed at how quickly suburbanites came to see itself as a post war middle class distinct from the pre-war working class, and the urban and academic intellectuals came out against what they saw as a sterile new suburban culture uninterested in the elite arts. The suburbanites were unaffected by, if not actually unaware of, this criticism, and instead went about raising families and having barbecues.
I added the Mergefrom tag for a bunch of articles (to which I added mergeto tags.) All of the proposed-merge articles are short and with little relevance to anything other than the larger G.I. Bill. It appears that they should all be merged into this article.
Separately, shouldn't this article be renamed "Servicemen's Readjustment etc etc..." ? Paul 04:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Did it ever occur to you that the reason I made the information box? if you merge all these articles into one massively big one, then individuals will get lost and overwhelm in information overload. Beside, Tuition assistance is a benefit but not a guarantee, just something to sweeten the pot. Paul.Paquette
AmericanPatriot29 00:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Student Loan Repayment is not part of the G.I. Bill. So I do not think it should be merged.--Oldwildbill 12:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Tuition assistance" is a much broader concept than this one US GI program. The article now doesn't really have any content, just links to individual documents associated with that program. Is it possible this article can be developed, either by actual content about the US program, or with general information on tuition assistance and descriptions of other programs?Lisamh 19:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
This line:
It is also asserted that such a subsidization of higher education has led to overproduction, in this case overproducing college degrees so that the supply of people with college degrees does not meet the demand of the market
...surely if it's overproducing, it's more correct to say that the demand does not meet the supply? Perhaps 'match' would be a better term than 'meet' as it doesn't imply that the supply was insufficient.
I thought GI Bill was the best, but Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 is more formal, hence more "encyclopedic". Note that the text calls it the "GI Bill" throughout (with one reference to "GI Bill of Rights".
Ask any American about the "GI Bill" - especially in connection with college tuition assistance, and the 1944 act as what they think of.
I used a similar program called VEAP in the 1980s. --Uncle Ed 18:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move. Much more common name in English. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 09:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, G.I. Bill is "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." The lead of the article says as much. JCO312 21:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
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The article contains the phrase "[t]he bill helped to democratize the 'American Dream' primarily for white Americans." This charge of racism needs to be clarified. For example, (1) was the program administered in a racist manner, (2) what was the total number of blacks who received a benefit from the program, (3) for those persons receiving benefits, what was the level of educational performance, broken down by race? Without this type of support, the implication that the bill was primarily for the benefit of white persons is merely racist rhetoric that should be eliminated.130.13.4.45 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.45 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The charge needs to be added back in, and supported. Whites made up the majority of combat duty troops, which the bill targeted at first - and seems to be whitewashed from this version of the article.67.180.92.188 (talk) 21:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
until FDR started creating black combat roles in all areas. Being a cook on a warship at Pearl Harbor was just as dangerous a job as running an Anti-Aircraft gun, but, it's clear that the law was treating these servicemen differently. It's not hard to document discrimination in administration of the GI Bill benefits, and that history deserves to be written in. --Patbahn (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
Would editors here feel favorable to a major re-write effort that would work ot incorporate all of the various veterans' education programs? Of course the WWII one was the actual "GI Bill" that the lead paragraph talks about, but the term is commonly used to refer to them all. I'm thinking the article could use a rewrite to better give a clearer history & outline of each program, especially since the passage of the Post-9/11 "GI Bill". ~PescoSo say•we all 00:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems like he was the senator which introduced the later-approved version of the G.I. Bill in the senate:
To the time-honored list of things which U.S. politicians may be counted upon to denounce relentlessly—the housefly, the common cold, the man-eating shark—Washington's Senator Homer Bone in 1937 added cancer. When he introduced a bill for a National Cancer Institute, it bore the sponsoring signatures of 94 Senators. (The other two hastened to add theirs before the bill came to a vote.) Last fortnight Missouri's Bennett Champ Clark hit on something which politicians almost as unanimously favor. He introduced a veterans' benefits bill, jointly sponsored by 80 other Senators. Last week, amid plaints by the remaining 15 Senators that they had not had a chance to sign it in advance, the Senate passed the bill unanimously. The House is expected to follow suit this week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.84.151 (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
WAVES, Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASPs, WFTDs & WAFS), SPARS (the United States Coast Guard Women's Reserve) -- were they eligible for original GI Bill?--S. Rich (talk) 21:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
No, that seems sadly missing from this. It was only troops who served combat-duty.67.180.92.188 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC).
Under "HISTORY," there is this line: "President Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted a postwar assistance program to help transition from wartime. The veterans' organizations mobilized support in Congress that rejected Teddy's initial approach and tied benefits only to military service."-- WTF? "Teddy"? Is someone really, truly confusing FDR with Teddy Roosevelt? I don't get it.Ted Newsom (talk) 16:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It should be noted that the MGIB was developed as a recruitment tool, not as a way to send veterans to college — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.103.180.10 (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Should African Americans and the G.I. Bill be merged into this page, or at least warrant a subsection here? It's a significant part of the bill's legacy, but only receives a nod in the "see also" section.Sanderphi (talk) 14:15, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
replace the racial discrimination part and merge it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:46E0:6700:69B2:3B7B:1FBC:5F4B (talk) 11:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I changed the link for vocational rehabilitation from rehabilitation counseling to vocational rehabilitation. Patience456 (talk) 23:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
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The following material was copied and pasted into the World War II section of the article. Someone needs to summarize it instead. Aschuet1 (talk) 16:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Citation should be US National Educational and Social Development Policy Handbook: Social Policy and Education Strategy [1]
References
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Hi. Currently, there is no legislative history at all in this article. Instead this article is inundated with information that should actually be in another article altogether. At one point in the last 40 years GI funding was significantly reduced (I believe it was entirely renamed and financially reduced), which in a quick glance, doesn't even seem to be mentioned.
Shouldn't there be legislative history to accompany the Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, as is the customary procedure for all Wikipedia articles that entail US legislation? First of all, with nearly every article - especially significant ones - there is an Infobox that accompanies the article with its legislative history, such as the name of the bill, the numbering of the bill in the House and the Senate, the dates of passage, the dates of signage, etc. Shouldn't that really be included in this article? The initial legislation was one of the most important legislative feats in U.S. economic history, so shouldn't this article reflect that? Thanks for listening... Stevenmitchell (talk) 22:19, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
This topic provides wonderful opportunities for promotion of one's own tribe, at the expense of one's perceived opponents; the existence of mountains of literature on the G.I. Bill makes it very easy to find one or two references supporting almost any point of view. Just for starters, consider these three sentences from the second paragraph of the lede: "It was largely designed and passed through Congress in 1944 by conservatives led by the American Legion who wanted to reward practically all wartime veterans. Since the First World War the Legion had been in the forefront of lobbying Congress for generous benefits for war veterans.[1] Roosevelt, by contrast, wanted a much smaller and more elitist program.[2]" I find these claims, which hang, severally, by the flimsy threads of two references, highly suspect. Oh yes, we all know that conservatives have always been first in creating expensive social programs. Oh, and (Franklin) Roosevelt is of course well known for depriving the masses of benefits, in "elitist" fashion. What a bass-ackward fantasy! And a very easy one to support, if a single reference suffices for every claim or two, since thousands of sources exist on this subject, written from every possible polarity.
At a minimum, much more thorough citation is required here, from a wide variety of widely recognized sources. But there needs to be a rewrite here, since it is not at all hard to find sources that credit that penny-pinching elitist, FDR, much more than the generous conservatives.
It is not just a diametrically opposing point of view that should receive balancing representation here, however: It's also not difficult to find sources that credit the G.I. Bill to concerns that were shared by interests from across the political spectrum: The U.S. was about to have hundreds of thousands of (mainly) men return home and begin looking for work, in a rapidly cooling postwar economy. Hearts filled with gratitude, for sacrifices made and a job well done, might've been a motive for some; but a very big incentive, for leadership across the board, was the fear of massive unrest, even widespread rioting. This concern is well documented, too. Let's have a little balance, and some nuance, here.--IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 04:34, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
References
This article does not seem to say anything about educational benefits for Vietnam War veterans... or the period between the mid 1950's and the mid 1970's.
Also the VEAP period is not described in adequate detail. I joined the Army in 1983 and fell under that. I don't know the exact details but we had to choose to participate, we had to pay into the program, and I recall the total benefit was uselessly low, like in the $5000 to $8000 range maybe. Basically we got the shaft.
I assume the various "chapter" headings are accurate, but wouldn't it be less confusing to downplay the legal chapter bit and instead put the major programs/eras in a chronological sequence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.20.170 (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Re. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G.I._Bill&diff=next&oldid=1176246252 some of that may be true about contemporary VA benefits, but this is about the GI bill. RudolfoMD (talk) 00:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
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