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	Bethlehem has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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Do we have any sources with surveys that report on explicit reasons of the community's dwindling numbers? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that the Christian community has dwindled due to difficulties attached to the Israeli occupation. Gosh, since when are the Israelis giving a hard time to Christians? The scuttlebutt is that actions by some Muslims have caused a Christian exodus there. --- Vitruviuspolio (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Current paragraph:

While it was historically a city of Arab Christians, Bethlehem now has a majority of Arab Muslims; it is still home to a significant community of Palestinian Christians, however it has dwindled significantly, mostly due to difficulties resulting from living under the Israeli occupation. Presently, Bethlehem has become encircled by dozens of Israeli settlements, which significantly hinder the ability of Palestinians in the city to openly access their land and livelihoods, which has contributed to the exodus of Palestinians

Is rather heavily NPOV, doesn't reflect persecution and discrimination against Christians by the Palestinian Authority and Muslims. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also doesn't reflect following explaining Muslim majority, which happened also due to when the Palestinian Authority taking control in 1995, it reportedly expanded the boundaries of Bethlehem, allegedly to ensure a Muslim majority. This enlargement resulted in the inclusion of more than 30,000 Muslims from nearby refugee camps into the city. Yasser Arafat, at that time the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) also unilaterally replaced the predominantly Christian city council with a leadership that was predominantly Muslim. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding the boundaries of a city is not persecution. VR _talk 01:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also doesn't reflect hardships faced by Christians from PA officals in the judicary system, negative behaviour, attacks on churches and christians etc... Homerethegreat (talk) 14:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sources show that the Christians of Bethlehem blame the Israeli occupation for their wanting to leave the city, you put in a highly distorted view of the causes of their emigration. See for example: Allen, John L. (2016). The Global War on Christians: Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution. Crown Publishing Group. pp. 125–126. ISBN 978-0-7704-3737-4. Retrieved 2023-12-19. Yet most Arab Christians living in Israel do not describe their situation in glowing terms. Samer Makhlouf, a Catholic and executive director of One Voice, a grassroots movement in Palestine that brings together young Palestinians and Israelis to promote peace, says that of the four problems facing Christians in the Holy Land, the first three are "occupation, occupation, occupation." Makhlouf described Israeli military and security policy as "the father of all the problems in the region." That perception seems widespread. A 2006 poll by Zogby International found that in the city of Bethlehem, 78 percent of Christians said that Christians were leaving the city because of Israeli occupation, while only 3.2 percent attributed the Christian exodus to the rise of Islamic movements. what you put in the article was, again, a highly distorted portrayal of why the Christians of Bethlehem are leaving. When the overwhelming majority is leaving because of the Israeli occupation and you claim it is because of Muslim oppression you are distorting the record. nableezy - 14:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please see following sources: ^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]}

Clearly, Christians in Bethlehem suffer from both factors. It would be NPOV not to mention it. If the writing is problematic we can have the following: "Christians in Bethlehem suffer from persecution from Muslims and PA officials. Their share of the city has fallen since the Palestinian Authority enlarged the city to encompass surrounding Muslim villages. They have emigrated, citing mainly the Israeli occupation." Homerethegreat (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any further responses? Homerethegreat (talk) 08:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV not to include it in the MOS:LEAD? Kire1975 (talk) 16:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't said what is NPOV about that paragraph. Kire1975 (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Spefically following sentences:

 as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.

Regarding biblical and Israelite history of the city in relation to king David, Also the following:

 Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city

This is in reference, explaining that the gospels say Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.

Furthermore, the removal of King David originating from Bethlehem in the body:

 David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem. 

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also following was removed:

At the northern entrance of the city is Rachel's Tomb, the burial place of biblical matriarch Rachel. Movement around the city is limited due to the Israeli West Bank barrier.

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All of that is mythology, and this is an encyclopedia not a place where we regurgitate some book of myths. Imagine using claims from the Quran for Jerusalem. nableezy - 14:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You need only look at Mecca page and you have sentences such as these:

Mecca is revered in Islam as the birthplace of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The Hira cave atop the Jabal al-Nur ("Mountain of Light"), just outside the city, is where Muslims believe the Quran was first revealed to Muhammad.

The Great Mosque of Mecca, known as the Masjid al-Haram, is home to the Ka'bah, believed by Muslims to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael. It is Islam's holiest site and the direction of prayer (qibla) for all Muslims worldwide.

---

But that is not the point. The point is Due weight information was removed from the page, also info that is attributed and sourced by secondary sources. You removed it because it is mythology in your opinion, but faith and beliefs can be given weight and attributed especially if it is the reason Bethlehem is so significant for the largest religion on Earth - 2 billion people.

Just add an attribute to the Rachel's Tomb bit for example and that solves the issue.

In another case you removed the attribution of Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city.

In another case you removed info with secondary sources regarding David's origin from Bethlehem, it was also written with the word "considered" (therefore not designating as fact).

And regarding the as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.

There is enough secondary sources that support Judah's rule over Bethlehem, and also simply attribute - according to the bible if this the big issue.

King David's origin and annotation in Bethlehem is also part of the importance of Bethlehem to Christians. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. That should not have been removed at all. SageSolomon (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding all the text or some specifically? What do you think? Homerethegreat (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there are reliable secondary sources for this, it can be added to Bethlehem#Other_religious_festivals (under the section on religious significance). We must mind due weight, though, as Bethlehem is mainly known for its religious significance in Christianity. VR _talk 01:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed since Bethlehem is mainly know for its religious significance in Christianity, it is due for relevant info to be in the lead. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey any further responses? Homerethegreat (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lede is a summary of body. what not including random information just because you think it is relevant. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in body. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This image: :

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The image reflects political activity in the city of Bethlehem and therefore I do not see why it is not due to be included. If NPOV is an issue one can add an image of Fatah rally no? Homerethegreat (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn’t not reflect political activity in Bethlehem, Hamas is not the local government in Bethlehem and it is unrepresentative to feature that image. nableezy - 14:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't we have both a picture of fatah and Hamas? Homerethegreat (talk) 10:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have Likud rally pictures on the Tel Aviv or Jerusalem articles? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, you can check. We're talking about Bethlehem here though. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, we shouldn't have it. Hamas is not a major force there as far as I know, so it gives a wrong impression. Zero^talk 10:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"By 2016, the Christian population of Bethlehem had declined to only 16%. The Christian population's proportion of Bethlehem fell from 87% in the 1950s to 12% in 2016."

This is what the page states now. Unless I'm missing some obvious technicality the text claims that in 2016 Christians were both 12% and 16% of the population. This conflicting info should be explained or corrected. 2A02:2F07:C212:C200:E850:9BF5:9425:887F (talk) 05:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How is this a "good article"? The article is written with a severe slant (one against Jewish people), it is poorly sourced, and it is frankly poorly written as well. To offer one specific example, it currently includes the line "In 2006, a Zogby poll that interviewed more than 1,000 Palestinian Christians from Bethlehem found that 79% of the respondents cited the Israeli occupation as source of difficulties leading the emigration of their community." This article has at least two typos in it, for starters. In addition, though, it cites a source that speaks of polling 1,000 Palestinians--the source (Al Jazeera reporting) never even says that the 1,000 Palestinian respondents were Christians. To spell it out: it looks a lot like the poll surveyed Palestinians who *are not fans* of Israel, and this article--factually incorrectly--puts that perspective in the mouths of Christians, whom the reader will suppose don't have an ax of their own to grind and will be unbiased in their opinion. 2600:1700:67A8:230:51B1:4CD5:A442:9243 (talk) 06:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]