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Archive 1 |
The link I posted in "External Links" is by an amateur Portuguese historian with the same academic credentials in this field as Arthur Kemp.
It would appear that Mr Kemp is currently in the midst of an extensive rewrite of his own biographic article.. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:44, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Even as a published author, I'm not feel'n it. and may propose this for deletion in a couple of days. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The sources used mostly don't seem to be reliable sources. I removed a few things that were clearly not good sources, marked a few places that need sources.
Mr. Kemps blog and books are only good for his opinion and response to things, not as facts for the article. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
[PA by USer:Arthur Kemp removed. See his talk page William M. Connolley (talk) 08:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)]
Indeed, the SPLC section is completely inverifiable, and, as I have said before, an obvious personal attack, based on completely made-up and invented alleagtions which have no basis in truth whatsoever.
Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
According to Gnews hits, it might appear so.[3] However, Arthur Kemp should not be editing his own biography, and if he continues to edit war here, he should be blocked from editing. The article itself is quite poor right now, but I think it would almost certainly survive an AfD. SDJ 01:20, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Verifiable sources? All that will show is what I posted originally.
Once again, I want to highlight was happened here:
1. An anonymous poster made a Wiki entry on myself, quoting an utterly unprovable and unsubstantiated pack of lies;
2. I edited the entry, using references, pointing out the huge number of serious factual errors (starting with simple stuff such as getting my birth date wrong -- so much for the 'facts' being quoted)
3. My comments then get rejected because it is my 'point of view.'
I find it bizarre that anyone can post any lie they want to about somebody else, and then where the subject says 'no, that is not true' then his comment gets made out to be the 'bad' one. Amazing.
Let me give one example (there are many. many more). The original article said that I was an international 'contact' with the NPD in Germany. Now, I have never been to a NPD meeting, know no-one in that group and have never had anything to do with it.
Now, my comment to that effect gets marked up as needing 'citation' -- how on earth do I 'prove' that something never happened, when there are no references to it, precisely because it did not happen.
I hope you will see that this is fundamentally unfair, and I will not, under any circumstances, stand by while outright lies are published. You are free to say anything that is true -- or even repeat lies others have made, but if you do the latter, you MUST allow me right of refutation. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I have reported this article, as well as Mr Kemp, on the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, as well as trying to bring an Admin's attention to Mr Kemp's continued actions. In addition, due to Mr Kemp's above reference to someone as a member of a certain defunct German political party of questionable refute, I posted an attack warning template on his user talk page.Wuhwuzdat (talk) 01:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I have also reported the original biased article, which consisted of nothing but a pack of lies based on a single report from the well-known extremist leftist SPLC, whose "facts" were so utterly wrong that they could not even get my year of birth right.
As for 'calling someone a nazi' -- anyone reading that entry I made could see that reference purely as an example of how, according to these 'rules', anyone could write anything about anybody else, anonymously, and then when that subject objected, his comments are deleted because it is his 'point of view.'
It was in that sense, and that sense alone, that the remark was made, and it is OBVIOUS from the context what was meant. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Once again the entry has been edited by another anonymous user repeating the lies from the SPLC (which itself heavily edited its own article on me after first claiming that I actually live in a room in the National Alliance's chairman's house -- which so was so unbelievable that not even they could continue with such an outrageously hilarious lie) and subjectively accusing me of all sorts of things.
As I said before, if you want to keep this article repeating SPLC lies, then you are under an obligation to allow me the right to refute it. If someone makes up a story about me, I have the right to refute it. Common sense and fair play demand it.
Arthur Kemp (talk) 10:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not have this page on my watchlist, but I noticed that the attempt I made to reincorporate some of the information from the Southern Poverty Law Center was removed. There was a note about this on WP:RSN to which I responded. I'm fairly certain the version that was reverted is better than the current version, so I'm going to revert back. However, if someone would like to explain exactly why we must remove any and all mentions of SPLC, please be my guest. I will note that the standard for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability and not truth. It could be that the SPLC is totally lying (I doubt it, but anyway). That doesn't matter to Wikipedia as long as it is properly attributed to them and it is clear to the reader that it is their accusation.
ScienceApologist (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The point is not 'removing any reference' to the SPLC, but simply allowing me the chance to refute their subjective, and for the greatest part, invented allegations. Arthur Kemp (talk) 17:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
All I have asked for is the right to equally refute allegations made against me. Please desist from removing these refutations. Arthur Kemp (talk) 18:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Once again, you reveal your subjectivity in the matter. As I have said repeatedly, I have not asked for the deletion of the allegations, merely equal space for refutation thereof.
I find it peculiar that you yourself put in my refutation at the bottom of the article, along with the SPLC claims, and then later add the SPLC claims once again, in the introduction, but this time seem intent on leaving out my denial. Why is that? What is your motive? Arthur Kemp (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I have removed all unsourced statements and removed an unreliable source. Arthur Kemp you are to stop editing your own article or you will be blocked. You have already crossed over into edit warring, but I am not going to block as you are a new editor and obviously confused about how Wikipedia works. ScarianCall me Pat! 18:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the allegation he "knew" people who were found guilty of a crime actually proper in a BLP? Is there a possibility of "guilt by association" inherent in such a claim, no matter how it is cited? Collect (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Is this Arthur Kemp the same guy as this Arthur Kemp? If so, surely this should be a prominent feature of the article. Paul B (talk) 17:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
{ud}A blog, admittedly, but it looks as though they are one and the same [9]. The Guardian makes it clear that our Arthur Kemp is a member of the BNP.[10] and [11]. Searchlight mentions March of the Titans [12]. What else do we need? dougweller (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
March of the Titans is bizarre. Kemp claims that anyone not British is basically part black since ancient times. Kemp forgets that the Romans for 500 years brought their black slaves to England, he just leaves that out of his book. Kemp is a real nut case. 65.32.128.178 (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The article has been tagged as needing a longer lede, that the article needs third-party sources, that it needs additional verifiable sources, that the article needs expansion, and that a "self-published source" should not be used.
There is some doubt as to whether the person is sufficiently notable for an article in the first place. The lede currently accurately represents the contents of the article in summary fashion, and does not include material which is not in the article. The material in the article is all currently sourced, although the "self-published source" is used only for a denial of an attack. The reference as used makes it clear that Kemp's denial is on his personal website, and is unlikely to confuse any reader.
As for "third party sources" - they abound here compared with many articles about not very notable people. Collect (talk) 20:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Only published Kemp's books - well, sells them at least, Lulu self-publishes them.[13] dougweller (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:OR claims about the book should reflect third party sources. Using the list of chapters to make a claim about the book is SYN and OR. Collect (talk) 00:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
This article has become the target of constant vandalization by 66.194.104.5 who is also known to Wikipedia users as a disruptive influence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alvestrand/POV-history by inserting lines which have nothing to do with the subject and which are merely pushing his own POV on the topic of racial mixing in Classical Rome and Greece. He has now resorted to outright lies in this effort. For example, one of the irrelevant lines he has inserted into this article reads as follows: "Agreeing with Kemp's claims are Afrocentrist works such as Martin Bernal's book Black Athena whose thesis is that Blacks built Ancient Greece." Kemp argues nothing of the sort: in fact he argues that whites built ancient Greece, not blacks. This is obvious from both Bernal and Kemp's books. He is engaging in deliberate distortions and lies, and needs to be prevented from further vandalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.229.242 (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
The following is well sourced and must be included by Wikipedia rules, where there in the article where Kemp listed the sources that supposedly agree with him: Contradicting Kemp's claims is the Encyclopedia Britannica's entry for Slavery in Ancient Greece, which states that Athens' slaves were of Aegean origin. [18] from Britannica 2005, p.290, vol.27 66.194.104.5 (talk) 13:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Kemp´s book "March of the Titans" has a chapter about the decline of Portugal due to aleedged "race-mixing" with black slaves. The following web site refutes his white supremacist theories. http://www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp I suggest it be added to the links as it represents a well documented critique of Kemp´s race centred theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.129.150 (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the SPLC, Arthur Kemp testified to South African police that two white comrades had killed a black man, and the two comrades both got life sentences thanks to Kemp. Fearing punishment by other white comrades who then despised him, Kemp fled to Britain, where he now works for the BNP. All this is in the footnote 11 of reporter Heidi Beirich, but it belongs in the article proper, not simply buried in the footnote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.157.50 (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Added the following, Kemp's research was never published in any peer reviewed scientific journal. It is impossible to disprove a negative and this is necessary for perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.157.50 (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain if there's a good reason for this? --Yuma (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Be advised that SPLC report on the subject has already undergone several major edits by the SPLC staff, after the original report was exposed as containing a series of outrageous lies, including the laughable allegation that the subject actually lived in a spare room at the National Alliance chairman's house in Ohop (actually the subject lives in the United Kingdom). As a result, in this particular instance, the SPLC report has been shown to be a pack of lies, and the allegations contained therein can not in any way be regarded as accurate. As such, quoting from that report is contrary to Wikipedia's BLP policy, and must be rejected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.144.129 (talk) 22:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
The refutation has already been sources in the article itself. Please see the entry under the "criticism" section. For your information, the reference is http://www.arthurkemp.com/?m=200712 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.144.129 (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
SPLC is not a reliable source. They've changed that article at least six times since initial publication, each time substantially changing so-called facts therein. Does this mean if I put up an article about you which contains blatant lies that I can then quote it as a reference on Wikipedia? If you and Wikipedia are interested in pursuing this in a court of law, then continue on this path. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.204.200.237 (talk) 00:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Here are the court records proving that Kemp testified against his comrades, see lines 20-21:
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/1994/189.html
This testimony of Kemp is what put Kemp's friends into prison for life.
The SPLC is correct —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.157.50 (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
removed unprovable allegations and insults.12.184.176.57 (talk) 00:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
All the court records show is that Kemp confirmed what the accused had already told the investigators, and that the third accused, Mrs gaye Debry-Lewis, was acquitted because of Kemp's testimaonty. A quick reading of the sourced material will prove this to be accurate.
There is therefore no justification for the allegation as made in this seciton heading, and it is clearly contrary to BLP policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 08:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
"Court records" are "primary sources" by WP policy. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." WP:NOR They are clearly not properly used at this point in the article. Collect (talk) 12:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The court records clearly show that Kemp did not testify to anything which the Derby-Lewis's had already not told the police, and furthermore that his evidence secured the acquittal of one of the accused. The accusation by user 67.79.157.50 is obviously untrue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 00:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Read Heidi Beirich's article for the SPLC, she states precisely that Kemp gave 'testimony against the Derby-Lewises'. It is exact wording, and conveys information that is in fact nowhere else in this wikipedia article.67.79.157.50 (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that in the section "Continuous Removal of Refutations" above, the point was made by William M. Connolley at 18:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC) as follows: "1. The SPLC says Arthur Kemp, a South African intelligence official in the era of apartheid, has been trying to resuscitate the neo-Nazi National Alliance in the United States. If we believe the SPLC, why aren't we reporting its claim that AK was an Int Off?"
The point being that continous selective quoting from the SPLC article is clearly contrary to Wikipedia BLP policy, especially when it is based on unprovable assertions from a poltically baised source such as the SPLC.
Either ALL the allegations are reproduced, and Kemp is allowed equal space to refute them all, or none are reproduced, and the article is linked and Kemp's refutation is linked, as was the case before the present set of vandallization took place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
1. The allegation that Kemp left South Africa after testifying in the Hani trial is obviosuly untrue: the trial was in 1993, and Kemp moved muhc later than that. 2. The SPLC author Beirich has made an assertion based on zero facts. She has never interviewed any persons in South Africa to back this allegation, and has simply made it up. 3. Given Kemp's political views, it is far more likely that he left South Africa because he did not want to live under an ANC government. 4. It is contrary to Wiki BLP policy to quote opinions, even if referenced. There is therefore no reason to include obviously poltically biased opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 07:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
User 72.15.212.126 is clearly motivated by personal bias as evident from the comment above, and is vandalizing this article to suit a personal political agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 21:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Note "resist.com" is not within a mile of being a "reliable source" for anything on WP. Collect (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Kemp writes on his blog I provided the court with no evidence which the Derby-Lewis couple had not already given to the police. The truth however is quite the contrary: Kemp's damaging testimony got Lewis and Walus into deep trouble. Kemp testified that the Lewises told him Walus would not talk. This was thrown at poor Mrs.Lewis at the amnesty hearings of December 1, 1997:
MR BIZOS: I want to take you to the bottom of page 693 of your evidence - before I do that, was Mr Kemp assured - in your presence, that he must not worry because Walus would not talk?
MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don’t recall that, he testified to that fact but I don’t recall it.
MR BIZOS: Who testified to that fact?
MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Kemp.
And later Mr.Bizos refers to Kemp as a material witness. 67.79.157.50 (talk) 14:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Since any witness is a "material witness" pretty much if they are not an "expert witness" and since Kemp provided the "list" in court, the whole part above is joyfully unimportant. Collect (talk) 15:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
User 67.79.157.50 has demonstrated amply to readers of this page what his "sources" (resist.com) and others are, and his motivation in continously introducing material contrary to established BLP policy. How much more evidence do we need as to his motivation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.202.63 (talk) 19:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no justification in selective "cherry picking" quotations from the SPLC article, which is itself suspect as a politcally motivated POV. As discussed earlier on this page, the SPLC makes a large number of allegations about the subject. Why then only pick out one or two and hihglight them, while ignoring the rest? Especially when a review of the history of the article in question shows that the SPLC have altered it more than six times, each time cutting out another part which was so far fetched that not even they could maintain it. The article is referenced as a POV criticism, and the subject's response is referenced as a POV rebuttal. It is not necessary to expand upon in the BLP, and selective, politically motivated subjective allegations are specifically disallowed under Wiki BLP policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.206.243 (talk) 01:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Possible new source: BNP's attempt to gain first European seat aided by man linked to ANC leader's killer guardian.co.uk Verbal chat 21:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
New research from the SPLC regarding Kemp http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/05/06/transnational-white-supremacist-arthur-kemp-slammed-online/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.129.150 (talk) 15:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Note: sources which do not actually use names are not valid for making contentious claims in a BLP. Referring to "A" is insufficient for making a contious claim about Arthur Kemp. Thanks! Collect (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Kemp's abundant sources which record foreigners in Rome are true, but they were not 'non-white' as Kemp claims in his irresponsible and sloppy style. Kemp mistakes the word 'Orientals' for non-whites. 'Orientals' refer to Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople) Greeks essentially, not non-whites. It is said that Greek became the majority language in Rome. There were some Syrians but 'Syrians' were not non-white and the Romans even stationed some Syrian troops as far north as Hadrian's Wall. Kemp is the only one who misuses the term 'non-white'; none of Kemp's academic sources use that term at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.169.90.98 (talk) 12:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Arthur Kemp truncates phoney quotes of Prof. Tenny Frank, and Kemp simply leaves out the beginning and end of Frank's article where Frank admits that the evidence for races in Rome is questionable and uncertain :
" This evidence is never decisive in its purport, and it is always, by the very nature of the material, partial in its scope... But it is offered in the hope that a more thorough study of the race question may be made in conjunction with economic and political questions before any attempt is made finally to estimate the factors at work in the change of temper of imperial Rome." - Tenny Frank
This is the 'rest' of Frank's quote, that Kemp leaves out ! from: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jstor/ahr/ahr-21-4-toc.html
I suggest this quote be added to the article, and all the rest of the out of context quotes be deleted and simply then all be referred to: See also Decline of the Roman Empire.
Kemp loaded the article with obscure early twentieth century sources from the Ku Klux Klan era, these sources are not standard sources, and are unacceptable for wikipedia.
Also, A.M. Duff is completely unknown and not 'famous' as Kemp claims. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Kemp knows he's made errors but he can't change his book now; Kemp lost his whole family, so he can't now also admit to what are obvious mistakes in his 'book', because he'd have nothing else left. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
How is this relevant to the Talk page? Collect (talk) 17:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The article makes it sound like Italians are negroids.
This quote of Prof. Tenny Frank should be at the very top of the article !
" This evidence is never decisive in its purport, and it is always, by the very nature of the material, partial in its scope... But it is offered in the hope that a more thorough study of the race question may be made in conjunction with economic and political questions before any attempt is made finally to estimate the factors at work in the change of temper of imperial Rome." - Tenny Frank
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jstor/ahr/ahr-21-4-toc.html 173.169.90.98 (talk) 18:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The Roman Empire simply transferred its capital to Constantinople. This should be placed in the article, it negates Kemp's claims completely.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Of_The_Roman_Empire#The_West_demoted_to_the_periphery 173.169.90.98 (talk) 19:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
If you are allowing quotes from Prof. Frank then add this one, for perspective, it is Frank's qualifying remark:
" This evidence is never decisive in its purport, and it is always, by the very nature of the material, partial in its scope... But it is offered in the hope that a more thorough study of the race question may be made in conjunction with economic and political questions before any attempt is made finally to estimate the factors at work in the change of temper of imperial Rome." - Tenny Frank
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jstor/ahr/ahr-21-4-toc.html 173.169.90.98 (talk) 19:37, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
why do you allow nonsense claims like this ? 'world famous historians', what a joke ! 173.169.90.98 (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia Administrators know that "parenthetical editorial does not belong in article" so why are they not deleting any of it ? 173.169.90.98 (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
None of Kemp's sources say "non-white", as Kemp claims. 173.169.90.98 (talk) 04:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
"non-white" is only Kemp's word, the quoted respectful historians should not be painted as confirming that word. - None of those quotes describe Constantinople's "Oriental" Eastern Roman Empire as " non-white ", as Kemp is inferring by inserting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.169.90.98 (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
For clarification and correctness I would add the following sentence to the end of the article: However, none of these quotes regarding newcomers state that they were " non-white ", as Kemp claims. Contributions/173.169.90.98 (talk) 13:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) Such a claim is OR in and of itself. (WP:NOR) Unless, of course, you can find a reliable source making that precise claim. And since you can not say any quotes are "faked" and since the cites for them are clearly given, you do not have WP policy on your side. Collect (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I suggest removing the part of this section that begins "However, Kemp’s claims...is supported by a number of acclaimed and world famous historians." None of these historians were commenting on Kemp's book so they have no relevance to the article. The statement that they support his claims is WP:OR. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
" This evidence is never decisive in its purport, and it is always, by the very nature of the material, partial in its scope... But it is offered in the hope that a more thorough study of the race question may be made in conjunction with economic and political questions before any attempt is made finally to estimate the factors at work in the change of temper of imperial Rome." - Tenny Frank
from: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jstor/ahr/ahr-21-4-toc.html Contributions/173.169.90.98 (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I will remove the section. Let me be clear. WP:OR states Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. The claim that Kemp's ideas are supported by some historians is not found in any published source, and can only be made by someone reading both Kemp's and Frank's writings and forming a conclusion. The fact that Frank died before Kemp was born makes it impossible that he formed any opinion on Kemp's book. Reference to writings that are presented in support of this view should also be deleted. Similarly criticism of the views should be avoided unless they are from published sources.
Because the book was self-published and never reviewed I question whether its contents should be discussed at any length, and welcome any comments on that matter.
If anyone restores this deleted material I will submit an RfC
The Four Deuces (talk) 22:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Arthur Kemp's book contains references to Professor Tenny Frank. However, Professor Tenny Frank explicitly cautions against speculating on the racial make up of ancient Rome:
" This evidence is never decisive in its purport, and it is always, by the very nature of the material, partial in its scope... But it is offered in the hope that a more thorough study of the race question may be made in conjunction with economic and political questions before any attempt is made finally to estimate the factors at work in the change of temper of imperial Rome." [12] - Tenny Frank
Kemp loves to quote Tenny Frank, but Kemp simply omits this one ! 173.169.90.98 (talk) 12:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
After all the edits the article Arthur Kemp now has very little data. I suggest that we restore the original version.[17] The Four Deuces (talk) 13:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
SPLC is a worldwide anti-white hate group.
I reverted the section because it was a BLP violation. Can I make myself anymore clear?--MonglerOfRocks (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
For the opinion of the SPLC on Kemp to have a place in this article it must have been reliably published, which a search on Google News and NewsBank shows it has not been. Leaving the section in the article would give their opinion undue weight. 203.213.2.194 (talk) 23:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Either sort this issue out here, or seek dispute resolution. Meanwhile, I've fully protected the article for a week. The BLP noticeboard should be the first port of call for any interested editor, which I am not. Rodhullandemu 00:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The Independent called Kemp a key witness, and there is no published source which refutes that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.222.5 (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
It is however clear from the evidence presented in the court case that Kemp was a minor witness. Key witnesses were the two eye witnesses to the shooting, the people who provided the firearm and the silencer, and the confessions of the two main accused themselves. Kemp on the other hand, only testified about a list of names drawn up by the wife of one of the accused, and nothing at all about the actual assassination. It is therefore obvious that this "key witness" claim has been inserted incorrectly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The Independent (not the Independant) article has no place in the 'criticism' section (the fact that 67.79.142.171 places it there is an indication of that poster's malicious intent). In any event, as proven above, Kemp was not a 'key witness' by any standard - - that title belongs with the really important witnesses already named in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 18:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
It is clear from the evidence in court that Kemp was not a "key witness" and this incorrect report is therefore irrelevant. Or are you suggesting that the main accused, eye witnesses to the shooting and the testimoney of people who handled the firearm is more important than someone who testified about a list which he did not even draw up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
A full list of state witnesses, extracted from the official South African records and fully referenced, has been inserted. A false claim in one newspaper is not more weighty than the official verfiable records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 19:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia should seal this article with the Independant source being included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.142.179 (talk) 20:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The official records, as referenced in this article, are a far more reliable source than a second hand account in a newspaper.
Furthermore, it is clear, from referenced sources already used in this article, that Kemp was not a 'key witness'.
There were eye witnesses to the shooting; witnesses who described the source and handling of the firearm, and statement confessions from the main accused.
In the light of the evidence presented by the official records, which show that Kemp's testimony had nothing to do with the actual murder, it is totally false to claim that he was a 'key witness'. The official court records from South Africa take precedence over a journalist's second had account.
Even the use of the phrase 'fried' by the poster above, shows that there is a malicious purpose behind inserting this false claim.
This is factually incorrect. Mrs Derby-Lewis never admitted her involvement to anyone. She was acquitted precisely because she never admitted her guilt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The official records show that Mrs Derby-Lewis did not admit guilt to anything. She merely confirmed that the list which Kemp had given her had ended up with Walusz. This is what the official records show, as referenced in the article. It is simply untrue to allege otherwise.
The most reliable source is the official court records, as referenced in this article.
The journalist did not consult "court records" as they were not available at the time he wrote his article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.48.61 (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Editors at Wikipedia are asked to intervene in the latest editing dispute. Essentially the question is what consitutes a more reliable source: official court records, or a second hand newspaper story. The court records must take precedence.
The Independent journalist did not quote official court records, as they were not available at the time the article was written. Official records are only made available once the trial is completed.
please protect this article including the proper source of the Independant. 67.79.142.179 (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that the trial section in the article is much too long? This version of the article is more concise. I think we should revert back to that and then discuss what changes to make. Kevin (talk) 22:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
The Chris Hani section does not belong in this article at all, because this article is not about Chris Hani or even about the trial. A one sentence mention that Kemp was a witness at the trial would be sufficient. Risker (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The Hani Trial is an important aspect of this BLP and deserves fuller mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.72.72 (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
This BLP suffers from a serious lack of factual content. Currently it consists of a collection of spurious and obviously politically motivated allegations. Wikipedia BLP policy states clearly that entries should be of a neutral and factual nature, and not be a repository for tabloid-style sensationalism. The changes being inserted now fulfill these requirements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.121.20 (talk) 14:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
As discussed elsewhere on this talk page, the SPLC cannot be regarded as a neutral reference for its political opponents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.121.20 (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Much more should be included on MOTT than just it's holocaust revisionism. The book is a work of hardcore nordicist pseudo-history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.1.91 (talk) 17:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
This article must rely primarily on reliable secondary sources, like articles in mainstream media. If you can find any then more information may be added. However the information added must reflect what is in those sources. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
An editor continues to include Kemp in the categories British writer and British historian. Could you please provide RS that either is accurate. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Just a note that the policy on biographies of living people also applies to this talk page, and that discussions here must remain focussed on improving the article. Random speculation based on blogs and other user submitted media is not acceptable. Kevin (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
A listing of Mr. Kemp´s academic credentials would be useful for the public to acertain the true value and credibility of his historical research and theories. Does he have an academic background in history? What is his level of education? Have any of his works been published in any peer-reviewed publication or have they all been self-published or published by neo-nazi organizations? This information, which is indeed quite fundamental when the biographical article in question is of a self-described historian, would enrich the article and provide enough information to the public so as to permit a serious evaluation of his writings´ credibility and value as historical reserach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.242.197.73 (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Should this article make reference to Kemp's relations with Alan Harvey? Kemp wrote for Harvey's racist hate-sheet South African Patriot during the 80's See for example 'Rogues Gallery' article by Harvey reproduced on blog and attended his wedding (like Kemp Harvey would leave his wife and child in South Africa). Harvey would join Kemp in the South African Conservative Party. When Kemp came to Britain in 1996 Harvey was there to meet him. Later, they had an acrimonious falling out at the beginning of the century, Harvey blaming Kemp for the arrest of Clive Derby-Lewis. Harvey has edited the Kemp article [here] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.135.143 (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
This article violates several Wiki BLP policies and is little more than a politically motivated attack on the subject.
It contains almost no actual data about the subject, and is largely a collection of attacks on him by political opponents.
As such, the article needs to be revised in its entirety.
Here follows a proposed draft: discussion is invited before it is posted up.
Arthur Kemp was born in 1962 in the British colony of Southern Rhodesia, spending his formative early political years in South Africa. He has a bachelor’s degree in Political Science, International Politics and Public Administration. [1]
He was conscripted into the South African Police for four years -- from 1985 to 1988 -- as part of his national service obligation in South Africa, serving as a constable and a sergeant in the uniform branch stationed in Johannesburg. [2]
After completing his national service, Kemp worked for The Citizen (South Africa) newspaper in Johannesburg [3] and later as a journalist for the South African Conservative Party.
Kemp was expelled from the Conservative Party in 1992 for coming to the conclusion that apartheid was impracticable, indefensible and morally unjustifiable. [4]
Kemp has also worked as an international risk consultant; as a retail market analyst for a blue chip company in the UK; and as a public relations consultant. [5]
Having moved to the UK in 1996,[6] Kemp is manager of Excalibur, the British National Party (BNP)'s merchandising arm[7] and is in charge of maintaining the BNP website.[8] He is also BNP spokesman on foreign affairs. [9]
According to testimony from Kemp´s first ex-wife, Karen Mills, Kemp did not graduate from university. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.155.133.17 (talk) 14:33, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
As of August 2009, Kemp has written seven books, most of which are self published as Ostara. They are, in order of publication[10]:
1. Victory or Violence - The Story of the AWB of South Africa (first published 1990, Forma Publishers, Pretoria. Second edition Ostara Publications, 2009). This book deals with the history, ideology and activities of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (English: Afrikaner Resistance Movement).
2. March of the Titans: A History of the White Race (first published 2000 by Ostara Publications, Second edition 2001, third edition 2004, fourth edition 2006, fifth edition 2008). This book is a racial history of the European people of the world.
3. Jihad: Islam's 1,300 Year War Against Western Civilisation (first published 2008 by Ostara Publications). This book is a historical overview of the development of Islam and its invasions of the Byzantine Empire and Western Europe.
4. The Immigration Invasion: How Third World Immigration is Destroying the First World and What Must be Done to Stop It (first published 2008, Ostara Publications). This books deals with the extent and effect of Third World immigration into Europe, North America, Australia and New Zealand.
5. The Lie of Apartheid and other true stories from Southern Africa (first published January 2009 by Ostara Publications). This book is a series of essays dealing with the apartheid, Zimbabwe, Ghandi and the author’s experiences in South Africa during the ending of apartheid.
6. Headline, The Best of BNP News Volume I, July-December 2008 (first published 2009 Ostara Publications). This is a collection of stories which appeared on the BNP’s website from July to December 2008.
7. Headline, The Best of BNP News Volume II, January-June 2009 (first published 2009 Ostara Publications). This is a collection of stories which appeared on the BNP’s website from January to July 2009.
In addition, Kemp has co-authored a 22 page booklet with Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP, entitled Folk and Nation, Underpinning the Ethnostate (first published 2008 by the BNP, 22 pages).
In 1993 Kemp was briefly arrested and then released without charge in connection with the assassination of Chris Hani, the leader of the South African Communist Party and chief of staff of Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC). [11]
Kemp was subpoenaed to appear as a witness after one of the main suspects, Clive Derby-Lewis, gave the police Kemp's name as the person who had drawn up a list of names which was found in the apartment of the shooter, Janusz Walus. [12] According to the South African Police, Kemp was arrested along with four other people had “on the basis of information provided by Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.” [13]
Kemp testified that he and Mrs Derby-Lewis had had nothing to do with the Hani assassination and we only cooperated with her in preparation for an article which compared the lifestyles of ANC and leftist leaders with those of their followers. [14]
When Mrs Derby-Lewis was acquitted, the presiding judge, JA Hoexter, made specific reference to the fact that the reason she had been found not guilty was because of Kemp’s evidence in court. [15]
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, Kemp is a white supremacist who has been active in providing some manner of support to the National Alliance in the United States, and asserts he left South Africa because he was seen to have betrayed those convicted in the murder trial of Walus and Derby-Lewis, by giving testimony against the Derby-Lewises.[16]
Kemp dismissed these allegations as "total rubbish" on his personal website, saying they didn't even get his year of birth correct.[17]
There must be a way to clearly state how objectionable Kemp's views are in neutral language that does not fall into the trap of condoning his views or rendering them respectable. The fact that he understands "race" in biological terms and sees it as the dominant narrative element with which to explain history needs telling, as even his supporters must agree, since this central aspect of his thought is what attracts them to him, and since this fact is clearly stated in the title of his main self-published book and is prominent throughout the text. What makes ihttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.pngt difficult, however, is he distances himself from many elements of white supremacy, thus trying to have his cake and eat it too. If someone could lay out these clear facts, one would hope the informed reader would understand them for what they are, though it does bother me greatly that racism is allowed to hide behind the mantle of neutrality here. Has anyone got other examples of how this issue was handled on WIkipedia, whether successfully or not? Or am I to conclude that this is a fatal weakness of this crowd-sourced project? mrs (talk) 14:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Now having had chance to read the much quoted SPLC article, and by using the Wayback Internet Archive, it is obvious that the SPLC article has undergone at least three major rewrites since it first appeared. Given its nature, the changes to it and the overtly "political character assassination" nature of the article, I doubt very much that it can be used as a RS, and am inclined to delete it completely.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 15:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
I am not so sure. For example, if the SPLC had to allege that Senator John McCain used to work for the CIA, without providing any evidence whatsoever, would we allow such a reference on Wikipedia? I doubt it. The same scenario applies here. The SPLC has alleged that Kemp worked for the "Apartheid South African intelligence service" but provides no proof whatsoever. This is a serious allegation, and should be substantiated before being allowed into a BLP. I am still of the opinion that such unsubstantiated allegations should be deleted from BLPs otherwise it will open a free-for-all for anyone to allege anything about anyone else. without having to provide proof. TheFallenCrowd (talk) 00:24, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
All I have read about it shows that the SPLC is a not reliable source, but unreliable website that obviously hates conservative, nationalist and identitary politicians and activists. It includes many factual errors and left wing opinions presented like facts. On the other hand SPLC is notable political organization and it opinions can be notable in some/many cases. --Dezidor (talk) 16:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Current WP:BPL is exceedingly clear - contentious material requires exceedingly good sources. Otherwise, it should be deleted on sight. Please examine the RfCs on the issue to see how thouroughly despicable the insertion of contentious material is to WP and to the WMF. Collect (talk) 11:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/bnp-a-jew-masonic-front-group/
This article is highly critical of Kemp and the BNP in general. I think this is a good thing because the BNP are dishonest.--Calm After Strom (talk) 23:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
This article in general is extremely poor. The description of the subject's philosophy of as one of "race" is laughable. What exactly is the "philosophy of race"? I have a degree in political philosophy and I have never even heard of it. I have voted for the deletion of this article on the deletion discussion page, and urge others to do the same.TheFallenCrowd (talk) 11:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I have restored this reference - "Revealed: The Welsh warehouse at heart of BNP Euro campaign; I'm no white supremacist, insists BNP activist Kemp". Western Mail. 2009-05-07. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-199158975.html. Retrieved 2010-07-31." which I added earlier today. It references the first paragraph of the Biography section which previously was unreferenced. The removal was made on the basis of "Removed irrelevant link" which I do not understand. The article is tagged with needing more references for verification so adding a source to do this should not be something that gets reverted. Davewild (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
With all this insightful biographical information isn´t it time to add the photo of Mr. Kemp? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.38.197 (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
That picture is the subject of much speculation as to whether it is genuine or not and has appeared in a number of different and clearly photoshopped versions on the internet already. Caution is required. TheFallenCrowd (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2010