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Needs to expand on the role of the loose metal clips, and why making them loose seemed like a good idea at the time. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:41, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Entrenching tool, not Intrenching tool 216.160.223.19 (talk) 23:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
I feel the need to point out that it would appear that intrenching is the word of choice. However, I believe that entrenching would be the better word, as according to some online articles, intrenching is an older more outdated term. Therefore, I say that we should change intrenching to entrenching due to its current relevance. 67.135.4.210 (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
@Dicklyon has moved the page from "All-Purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment" (proper noun case) to "All-purpose lightweight individual carrying equipment" (sentence case). I think this move was done in error. "All-Purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment" appears to be a proper noun. Reference 1 also capitalizes each word, and references 3 and 4 (while they use all caps when naming ALICE) capitalize each component, implying that it's all a collection of proper names. Dicklyon, am I missing something? I'm a relatively new editor, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a part of the MOS I missed or something. EducatedRedneck (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
On Wikipedia, most acronyms are written in all capital letters (such as NATO, BBC, and JPEG). Wikipedia does not follow the practice of distinguishing between acronyms and initialisms. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 17:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Ballistic Missile Early Warning System#Article title – Use sentence case? Result: Title case, since it's the name of a specific systemwhich seems applicable here, as we're referring to a system, not an individual vehicle (like the other examples). I'm also not sure that the fact it's inconsistently used -- in lowercase on an FM that's about general wear of equipment (not specifically ALICE gear) and presented in a graphically stylized manner vs. uppercase on the actual manual for the specific system as prepared by Natick -- implies that the interpretation is stylistic vs prescriptive. It could just as easily be an error, or an intentional choice to deviate from the standard on a single document due to it's format (see, e.g. the A-10 pilot's coloring book. I'd also add that fully capitalized is consistent with how we're currently utilizing MOLLE (within the article), Pouch Attachment Ladder System (as a title), Improved Load Bearing Equipment, Modular Tactical Vest and most other similar terms for comparable attachment systems, load bearing gear, and other equipment carriage systems. See, e.g. Family of Improved Load Bearing Equipment, Personnel Armor System for Ground Troops, Combat Integrated Releasable Armor System, Full Spectrum Battle Equipment Amphibious Assault Vest, etc. As such, I'd prefer to see it capitalized, as I don't see why it's not a proper name (and thus capitalized per MOS), though I can live with it the other way.⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 19:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
So, given that it's been several days of asking for a compelling argument why this page was not an example of a proper name, and having yet to see one made; I will be reverting this move shortly. There's no consensus for it, there's no clear policy justification for it, the sources don't appear to support it, common usage doesn't support it; and the fact that Dicklyon used the links provided in this discussion to make even more undiscussed controversial article moves, I find disturbing; I will be reverting those as well, if they're not self-reverted soon. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 17:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
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– These military equipment designators are often capped in official lists, but also often lowercase in sentences in both official and "independent" publications, so per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS we should default to lowercase, in titles and in article text (except Interceptor should be capped even mid-sentence, as that's the proper name of the armor system, not a descriptive term). I had moved them already, thinking they'd be uncontroversial in light of a bunch of previous military equipment designation RMs, but these were objected to and reverted, so let's discuss. Dicklyon (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
The general rule is that wherever a military term is an accepted proper name, as indicated by consistent capitalization in sources, it should be capitalized. Where there is uncertainty as to whether a term is generally accepted, consensus should be reached on the talk page.There is no "generic" usage of the term "All-purpose lightweight individual carrying equipment" -- it is always used in reference to a specifically named and defined system; as one would expect from a proper name. Propper, one of the leading manufacturers of MOLLE and ALICE equipment, and uses the term in capitals -- same with ILBE (which they are one of the manufacturers as well). Same with Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). In each one of these cases, the phrase is only ever used in the format of a proper name; and the common accepted usage of all of these terms within the military (as well as for basically every other similar load-carrying system) is for each word to be capitalized. Interceptor Body Armor is capitalized in patent applications. It is capitalized in military testing assessments (with the caveat that while each word is independently capitalized, they also use the trademark name in which the entire word of INTERCEPTOR is capitalized.) It is fully capitalized by military academic sources and masters theses. Frankly I find this whole discussion bizarre; as someone who wore an IBA with ALICE attachments for work every day for several years, this feels like a very pointy move and I do not understand how this move *away* from the commonly accepted military usage improves Wikipedia.⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 01:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
"Oh, like Telephone?"No, like Voice over Internet Protocol or Advanced Audio Coding. ALICE gear is a system of holes, hooks, containers and straps that work together. There is a standard for the size of the holes and hooks and the distance between them. That's what makes ALICE gear work. I used a lot of army surplus gear back in the day and the real stuff worked together and fit together. Compare first aid kit. When I put together a first aid kit there is no standard for how it should fit or work together and I can call anything I make a first aid kit, but I couldn't call a way of carrying things an ALICE kit unless it worked together and met the standard. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 13:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Long off-topic discussion of "Gun Motor Carriage" and historical beefs
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Next, IMTBAS (which obviously should not be a red link) has much less source coverage, and results are a bit more mixed [4]. The alternative spellings Interceptor Multi-threat Body Armor System, Interceptor MultiThreat Body Armor System, Interceptor Multithreat Body Armor System, and Interceptor Multi Threat Body Armor System (and lower-case versions) should also redirect, but are redlinks. Further, it's sometimes shortened to Interceptor Body Armor or interceptor body armor (IBA) or Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor, etc. spellings, (IMTBA). IMBAS and IMBA are both also plausible acronyms (for those who interpret "multi-threat" as a single word), though I'm not sure if they're source-attested usages. As with the above, almost all of this is red-linked (though the IBA disambiguation page has an appropriate entry). We also need redirects from "Armour" and "armour" spellings for non-American readers.
It's weird to me that this discussion has not mentioned MOLLE: Modular Lightweight Load-carrying Equipment AKA Modular Lightweight Load-Carrying Equipment, modular lightweight load-carrying equipment, Modular Lightweight Load Carrying Equipment, modular lightweight load carrying equipment, Modular Light-weight Load-carrying Equipment, Modular Light-Weight Load-Carrying Equipment, modular light-weight load-carrying equipment, Modular Light Weight Load Carrying Equipment, modular light weight load carrying equipment, Modular Lightweight Loadcarrying Equipment, modular lightweight loadcarrying equipment. None of those should be red links, since we cannot depend on any reader to know either what the exact official rendering is or what WP's most likely default spelling would be based on MOS:CAPS and MOS:HYPHEN (which most editors don't memorize, much less readers memorizing them). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC); edited 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Other kinds of more theoretical or nit-picky arguments can be brought into it, and I've gotten into some a few times with regard to capitalization after a hyphen in title-case work titles. One would be to not capitalize if what follows the hyphen would not be a stand-alone word (as in "Kafka-eque"), or would coincidentally be one but an unintended homonym or mistakable for one (e.g. "Like" after "Ghandi" could have multiple interpretations and isn't reasonable writing so use "Ghandi-like" not "Ghandi-Like" in title case), or would be a stand-alone word but one that would not be capitalized (like "to" or "with" or "but"); and to not capitalize if the hyphenation is of a permanent compound (as in "De-escalation") not a temporary compounding imposed by usage as a modifier, where many off-site publishers consider the hyphen optional (as in "The Well-Known Gentleman"; you can tell that's temporary because the same idea can be expressed non-adjectivally with "The Gentleman Who Was Well Known"). My personal habit is to avoid capitalizing after a hyphen in work titles any time it's reasonable to avoid it, but there's no actual WP rule requiring this, and if someone reverted me on it I would not counter-revert or otherwise fight about it.
I don't think any of those side arguments (and there are probably more of them), matter in a case like this, since they don't resolve to actual rules here and other editors would be apt to debate about them at length. What matters more is that the "All-purpose" and "Multi-threat" half-capitalized style is, for these particular subjects, entirely or almost entirely unattested in actual source material, and we should not try to pursue a particular questionable interpretation of an MoS line item to a result that does not agree with reality even slightly. That is, never push any gudeline to the point of folly. "Common-sense exceptions may apply" is a matter of policy with regard to guidelines (at WP:P&G). It could also matter whether the post-hyphen element shows up in the acronym as an "important part" of the full term. Anyway, all of the foregoing presupposes we stick with capitalizing these, and I'm not convinced that we should, at least not for all of them; see below. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
One thing I've noticed is that the closer the term is to a name for a specific, unitary item, the more likely we are to capitalize it, and the more it leans toward being a designation of a general class of things, the more likely we are to lower-case it. This is kind of right in the middle, or both at once, depending on how you want to look at it. Any of these (ALICE, etc.) can be said to be names of singular things (equipment systems or specifications of equipment systems), but can also be said to be class-designators of an array of disparate things (all the ALICE or whatever gear items that qualify as part of the system or compliant with the spec). It possibly matters that many, many things are made and sold as ALICE or MOLLE or whatever gear but which are not official miltary-spec gear at all, but entirely private-sector products; these terms have become genericized labels for equipment-attachment designs. This is less true of [F]ILBE, and possibly not applicable to IMTBAS/IBA (but for all I know there may actually be extra-miltary IMTBAS/IBA products, e.g. for civilian police or private-sector security use, that are not part of the milspec systems at all, but simply within the class of compatible and so-named gear). Anyway, this is overall very similar, in general concept, to the differences between the name of a specific vehicle or model/line of vehicles versus a class of vehicle of a general type or class of models of vehicles, except that here the dividing line is much blurrier. That so far makes this a case of considerable doubt, and in such cases our default is to lower-case. WP only capitalizes when it's conclusively demonstrated that we should. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Where there is uncertainty as to whether a term is generally accepted, consensus should be reached on the talk page.. I'm worried this will come down to a bunch of WP:ILIKEIT arguments if there's no clear policy. EducatedRedneck (talk) 16:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
The caps seems to be only for significance or abbreviation definition, which is not the Wikipedia practice. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC); rev'd 05:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)