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Way back in June I requested that the title Sir be included in the underlining for Sir T.B. I started a new page to differentiate between other obscure Thomas Browne's but was jumped upon for altering it. I presumed this to be some egalitarian protocol to equalise all in the hall of fame. I now notice that a user named Smallweed has helpfully begun a page on a Sir James Edward Smith all underscored for clicking onto. Why is it Sir for some , but not for others? Or are arbitary editoral decisions made at the wiki? Norwikian 08:31, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Yep, all fair logical comments and explanatory, except that in this exception case ( and don't we all as Albert Camus once remarked, consider ourselves to be an exception case) T.B. has always been referred to as Sir T.B. ever since Coleridge's day, but on the whole i agree with this egalitarian principle, so i shall drop this slight whinge , fairly satisfied with your answers, thanks Norwikian 03:09, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There is huge problem of inconsistency with some articles entitled "John Smith, 1st Lord Smith" and others entitled "John Smith, 1st Baron Smith". Can we put something in the article recommending the latter use, at least as a main article, with a recommended link from the former? The former seems more natural, but if you are going to put in the detail of the numeral, 'Lord' is inappropriately vague. Andrew Yong 09:46, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Right now, all sorts of articles, from Alfred Tennyson to Bertrand Russell to William Pitt the Elder fail to include the highest title of the individual in the article title. There is at present a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Peerage regarding such exceptions to the convention that peers have the peerage listed in the article title. I advocate that:
-- Lord Emsworth 01:53, Jan 5, 2004 (UTC)
For long I've been somewhat uncomfortable with the current standard for articles on royal figures. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, for instance, is awkward. I'd propose instead a format like that used in the German Wikipedia, of Elizabeth II (United Kingdom). This would make it easier to do things like Byzantine and Holy Roman Emperors (Henry V (Holy Roman Empire) seems better than the current Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor, which is, of course, in direct contrast to the style for other rulers. Further, since almost all these articles require a [[Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom|Elizabeth II]] in any case, it wouldn't really lead to any greater awkwardness in writing of articles. So, I tentatively suggest this. Thoughts? john
Yeah, you're probably right. Thought I'd throw it out there. I abandon the suggestion. john 21:45, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Why's that? Take for example Gabriel García Márquez -- why should he be put in the Wikipedia as Gabriel García or Gabriel Márquez? I think it would be better to say here the more common form should be used with Hispanic names. -- till we *) 00:37, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Let's see if I got this thing. I have adopted the policy, which I understand to be consistent with these standards, of naming royalty by their most senior title, even if they eventually relinquished it or were deprived of it, and although they might be more commonly known under a different name (from where there should of course be a redirect). Hence Prince Carl, Duke of Ostrogothia, not Prince Carl Bernadotte; Prince Sigvard, Duke of Uplandia, not Count Sigvard Bernadotte af Wisborg. This once they are dead. Living persons however should probably be listed by their most common names? Certainly it must be so in the case of Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Wermelandia, as naming that article Carl Philip, Crown Prince of Sweden would use a title that he only had for a few months while infant, and (worse, of course) risk confusion for the inattentive reader as to him actually being the present Crown Prince. Agree or disagree? --Jao 01:59, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
And yet another question from me. What article title should go for Russian Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses? Here there are actually three issues: inclusion/exlusion of patronymic; transcription; and word order. I have used Anna Petrowna, Grand Duchess of Russia and Maria Pawlowna, Grand Duchess of Russia (in the articles of their husbands, Charles Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp and Prince Wilhelm, Duke of Sudermannia respectively). Feel free to change if there is a better way to do this. -- Jao 20:46, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't think there has been any convention on how to deal with German noble titles. Most articles seem to avoid the title entirely. Thus Otto von Bismarck, not mentioning his princely titles at all. alternate ways of doing it would be to use the German version of the title (Otto Fürst von Bismarck(-Schönhausen)) or the English version (Prince Otto von Bismarck(-Schönhausen). In present day Germany, the title is considered part of a name, which would suggest the second option as the best. But the main thing is just to set up an official way of doing things, so we all know how to name articles. john 23:39, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hmm...I think for royalty we should stick with translating the names. But for nobility it's more questionable. Certainly Prince Otto of Bismarck is silly. the "Von" is commonly used in English for such individuals. (Prince Clemens of Metternich? Prince Bernhard of Bülow? That's all rather silly). Prince Otto von Bismarck would make sense, I think, though. As far as Heinrich Graf zu Ortenberg, I think there would certainly be a sense that he is a count, even if this is not legally recognized, but I don't think this is an argument for having an article on him at Count Heinrich of Ortenburg. But I dunno. john 23:13, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
StanZegel initates a discussion:
There has been a dialogue at Template talk:German title Freiherr that we should invite more comment on, here.
The problem is that many English-speakers do not recognize some words in a Germanic name as being a title and not a middle name. (They would think, if they ever thought about it at all, that once there was a little kid named Charlemagne running around, whose mother sometimes yelled "Charlemagne, stop playing and come in for your lunch!" out the castle window.) To a more modern example: consider Georg Ritter von Schönerer. He was born Georg Heinrich Schönerer before his father was knighted, and he inherited the Ritter von during his life. Some readers may assume that his middle name is "Ritter" and so I have been thinking about ways to help the reader avoid such mistakes when reading about anyone who has such a title embedded in his name.
One thought has been to provide a standardized caution. I have created a series of templates, e.g. ((German title Ritter)) that places this text in those articles the invoke that template: Regarding personal names: Ritter is a title, translated approximately as Sir (denoting a Knight), not a first or middle name. There is no equivalent female form.
Nunh-huh suggested putting a link on the name, so Georg Ritter von Schönerer would show up in the topic sentence. I like that idea too, but it has two problems I have run into when trying it out: (1) You can't (shouldn't?) put a link in the article title, and (2) when there is a referral from another article to the person ([[[Georg [[Ritter]] von Schönerer]]) only the link to [[Ritter]] is shown as such and the rest of the would-be link is displayed as raw Wikicode. (If we do not put the link in the actual call, and use pipes do display the name with the Ritter portion linked, then the von Schönerer comes unlinked. That's probably a blessing-in-disguise, because doing those pipes would be so complicated.)
I'd like to put a proposal on the table. There are already many articles e.g. Friedrich Karl Ferdinand, Freiherr von Muffling that have a comma before the title word. Many others do not. I think the comma hints that there is something special about the remaining words of the name. I'd like to propose that we make that form a standard. (This is contrary to the Wikipedia standard on Cardinal in clerical names, but at least Cardinal is a term used by English-speakers, whereas Ritter, Freiherr, Graf, Fürst usw are not.)
Reactions? --StanZegel 01:58, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
However logical the policy on royal nomenclature may seem, a policy which results in the Queen Mother being called Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon is absurd, and therefore wrong. This ceased to be her name in 1923 and is recognised by no-one except historians. It's all very well to call James I's wife Anne of Denmark, when she was actually called Queen Anne, because she's no longer a well-known public figure. But the QM is, and she should be called by the name the current generation knows her as. So I have moved her to Elizabeth the Queen Mother to see what happens. Adam 11:07, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have read it. Wikpedia's most fundamental structural problem is that it privileges process over product. Here we have a wonderful process which has produced an absurd product, and no-one seems to mind. That is because Wikipedia still exists primarily for its writers rather than for its readers. I repeat: calling the QM by her maiden name 80 years after her marriage is absurd, and any policy that produces absurd outcomes is itself absurd, and should be changed. For what it's worth, my print encyclopaedias call her
Adam 15:13, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It's perfectly simple. Her "correct" title for 51 years was Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. Since we quite rightly don't begin articles titles with "Her Majesty" or "Queen", that leaves us with Elizabeth the Queen Mother as the "correct" title. It is not only correct, it conforms to reality in a way that "Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon" does not, because she was universally known as "the Queen Mother." And what does "valid" mean in this context? It certainly doesn't mean either correct or logical. Adam 15:50, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It means that in that instance I agree with the policy. But kindly don't change the subject: you haven't addressed the substance of my comments at all. Adam 16:08, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Adam - Of course using her maiden name is ridiculous, but is needed for disambiguation. Several Queens Elizabeth the Queen Mother exist, including another from England. However Royal Styles and Titles in the British Isles are so convoluted and changeable Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon is a necessary evil.
As for Wikipedia privileging process over product. The process must exist for writers for any product to exist. Writers must remember that they should use those processes (disambiguation for example) which will produce a reader-friendly product.
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon is NPOV. It makes discussion over which is the highest title to use. Her coronation title as Queen Elizabeth, a style later granted by letters patent, or indeed until 1947 she was Empress of India.
Do you have problems over Edward VIII? This, his highest degree, is the name used in wikipedia despite being used for only 11 months, followed by 37 years as Duke of Windsor. garryq 00:17, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It?s been said that the Prince of Wales would prefer to be King George rather than King Charles. If we accept his right to choose adopt any name, then we must accept the right of the King of Spain to do the same. At his investiture he adopted the name ?Juan Carlos I?, and that is the name which should be used for his article.
Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden is the first King Carl, others have been Karl, and only Karl X Gustav in 1654 used a similar second given name. Lists of Swedish Kings, even that from the Royal Court?s own website do not show fifteen other Carls or Karls on the throne. Yet his wiki-article is Carl XVI Gustaf
British usage cannot be applied, because it is a reference to regnal numbers, internationally can be regnal, personal or some admixture ? the most extreme example being the Princes Heinrich of Reuss. To force a British usage means that the eldest son Heinrich LXVII Reuss zu Schleiz would not have been Heinrich V.
Because outside Britain ?regnal? numbers may be regarded as another or an adopted given name surely the wiki-naming convention must be amended to allow local custom to be followed. garryq 00:50, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It is elementary logic. Hardcopy encyclopaedias have editors or editorial boards who can establish a rule and apply it. This is an open-edit encyclopaedia, with thousands of editors. That means that whereas hardcopy enclopaedias can allow individual variants because of restricted editing and because those writing individual articles are commissioned to do so because of their experience and knowledge, we have not got that freedom. Past history shows exactly what happens if we try different ordinal rules depending on what each state applied. If you put Juan Carlos at Juan Carlos I, then someone sees that and says 'oh, so we use Is' and promptly change Victoria to Victoria I, Louis Phillippe to Louis Phillippe I, Michael of Rumania to Michael I. Then someone else comes on and says 'Victoria was known universally as Victoria and only rarely called 'Victoria I so they change her back, then they change Juan Carlos, Louis Phillippe and Michael back, only for another person wanting to Juan Carlos to be Juan Carlos I to change them all again, someone else to change them back, someone else to change them back again . . . and so it goes on and on and on, with links screwed up, edit wars over numerals and some people in the end getting so fed up they leave wikipedia in frustration. So applying individual local usage or ordinals for individual monarchs in an open edit worldwide encyclopaedia is utterly and completely unworkable and when tried here before caused edit wars all over the place. The rule we have to follow as an open edit encyclopaedia is simple - apply for clear blocks of monarchs one universal rule. So for western monarchs, it is the relevant one for an an english language encylopaedia - what is the normal form comprehended worldwide in english for ordinals. And that is simple. Call a monarch the first if their has been a second. If there hasn't don't. It is irrelevant what they are called in their native language as this is an english language encyclopaedia. (Other languages always use ordinals, so for example they know Queen Victoria as Victoria I, Anne and Anne I, Juan Carlos I, etc. But that is not the case in english. In our case applying ordinals to some and not to other has been proven over and over and over and over again unworkable. Those of us who tried to untangle the variations before still get shivers at the thought of all the time that had to be devoted to stopping edit wars and constantly repairing broken links caused by endless moving of articles. FearÉIREANN 18:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Why do we drop the "Princess" title for British Queen consorts (eg Alexandra of Denmark instead of Princess Alexandra of Denmark), while keeping them for other monarchies (eg Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg and not Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg)? Why remove them at all?--Jiang 09:25, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Anna of Austria is a redirect. I think it should be disambiguation - there have been other notable Annas of Austria, as, for instance, Philip II's last wife. john 15:42, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
I would like to change No. 6 of Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)#Monarchical_Titles. For monarchs who have formally abdicated and are still alive, or who are usually referred to using non-royal titles (e.g. Simeon Saxe-Coburg Gotha), we should go by whatever they're currently known as and revert to the royal title only after they die. We have queen consorts under sovereign titles (Sofia of Spain) instead of maiden names. Why not put people where they're commonly known as? --Jiang 08:20, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
How many cases are we talking about? Besides Simeon, are there any currently alive who do not go by their royal title? Both King Michael and King Constantine use theirs - I'm not sure what former Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg goes by. (I'd have strongly objected to moving Juliana of the Netherlands to Princess Juliana of the Netherlands while she was alive.) john k 19:40, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Which objection? A general objection (which I did not make), or the hypothetical objection about Juliana? john k 21:37, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Conversation moved from User talk:John Kenney and User talk:Muriel Gottrop:
Hi John! Assuming you are a sysop (not sure), can you delete Charles, Duke of Orléans for me? Its just a redirect and i want to move a page there. Thanks, Muriel G 16:03, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Muriel, in terms of the Charles, Duke of Orleans, I think that we need to figure out how article on the French nobility should be titled. My opinion is that they should be at Firstname (Surname), frenchnobletitle de Title, rather than Firstname (Surname), Englishnobletitle of Title. But I think a consistent or semi-consistent system needs to be worked out, as we have for the English nobility. So, no, I won't delete the page now, because I don't think it should be moved there. If we can come to some sort of system that says the article should be there, I'd be happy to do so. Perhaps I should open discussion at Wikipedia:Naming Conventions (Names and Titles), or whatever the page is called? My attempt to do something similar for German noble titles there, which was largely ignored, somewhat discouraged me, though. john k 18:52, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hi John! I had a look on the Naming conventions. The foreign titles are not specified. I only saw instructions for english peers. They go like Henry Foot-Tootsie, 11th Baron Purpleberries. I would not like to adopt this, say, for the Duchies in continental europe. I dont like it either with foreign names like Duchesse du Berry oder Herzog von Sachsen. This, in my opinion, makes no sense in an english encyclopaedia and its a potential maintenance problem, because new articles are likely to be created according to english names. I agree with you, when you say that whatever convention, it should be consistent. Why do you prefer to use French titles here?, if i may ask. Cheers, Muriel G 13:54, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The German titles, I'd agree, are not generally used in English (at least before the abolition of noble titles when they became part of the name). However, for French noble titles, the French titles are very fequently used in English. Certainly for non-royals. We speak of the "Marquis de Lafayette," not the "Marquess of Lafayette." The "Duc de Broglie," not the "Duke of Broglie." Certainly I've never even seen "Count of Provence" and "Count of Artois" to refer to Louis XVI's brothers. Will and Ariel Durant, for instance, use the French noble titles exclusively (including for the Duc d'Orleans). Essentially, different foreign languages have different levels of familiarity in English. The Romance languages are almost certainly the most familiar, and they are also the languages where noble titles are the most similar to those in English. As such, it is common (and increasingly more common) to use the native language titles in Spanish, Italian, and especially French. Where both usages are common, I think we should stick to the native usage. I'd add that Encarta and Columbia use French titles exclusively. Britannica gives both (one in parentheses), and somewhat inconsistently, but seems to prefer the French titles. john k 17:31, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, I see the thing with "Duc de Bourgogne" - unlike most of the other things, the convention is generally to translate this into English. I'd note that I certainly don't want to translate every French title - that is what you want to do. I would say that titles below "Count" should always be in French. Titles of Count or higher should be in English only for people who are actually rulers of the territory in question. So Dukes of Burgundy, Dukes of Bourbon (up to 1527), Dukes of Orleans (up to 1498), Dukes of Normandy, and so forth, should all be in English. Titles which don't relate to actual territorial rule should not be translated. This is, I think, relatively non-confusing, and reasonably close to the usual standard of English language use, anyway. john k 09:38, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, I thought the move here was implicitly asking for other people's opinions. At any rate, who works on these types of pages who could perhaps be contacted through their talk page to give an opinion? I know of a lot of people who work on English language nobility, but can't really think of anyone who's done French stuff. Who works on early modern/medieval French history articles? john k 20:30, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Using French titles for non-Sovereign nobles seems good to me, but I have one small point: I know the French generally don't capitalise the rank ("Jean Smith, duc de Smith" or what not), but it generally is capitalised when it's transferred to English, so we talk of "the Marquis de Sade", not "the marquis de Sade". Everything else, though, seems perfectly reasonable. Proteus (Talk) 08:47, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
When we talk about them, yes, we capitalise and say "the Marquis de Sade." But encyclopedias, and indices, and so forth, when writing out the full name, generally hold to the French convention of not capitalizing. I'd add that even for English titles, one doesn't always capitalize the rank - I've read various books which follow this convention. john k 16:06, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hi guys, when I was working with French nobles, which I mostly borrowed from the French wikipedia, I tended to translate everything literally, even personal names (so Jean, duc du Berry, became John, Duke of Berry, etc). I wasn't sure exactly what to do with them, or even if they should be "Philip I of Burgundy" or, as Muriel writes them, "Philip I, Duke of Burgundy." In my own readings I see names and titles in English and French, or in Old French, or partly in Latin...I have no idea how names and titles work as time goes on and it gets closer to the Revolution, for the most part I am just interested in the nobles from around Charlemagne to around the 13th century, and I'm not sure there is a standard at all for those names (I can only think of one, "Stephen, Count of Blois" who I don't think is ever referred to in any other way). Sorry, this probably doesn't help :) Adam Bishop 16:31, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, one never sees "Etienne, Comte de Blois", does one? Most of the people you've been using would, I think, go with Muriel's suggested format, although I'm not sure about translation of personal names, because people who are Dukes of Burgundy or Counts of Blois were territorial rulers, and not just nobles - I do think we need some kind of rule for how to do articles on non-sovereign rulers - princes of the Holy Roman Empire, and so forth. I don't think "Henry I of Brunswick", or whatever, is a very good way to do it for such people. I'd prefer "Henry I, Duke of Brunswick." john k 17:15, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
To see what has to be renamed, moved, etc, according to the discussed above, i shall make an inventory of titles and styles in the next few days. Stay in touch. Muriel G 10:51, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Adenda: I think we should adopt the format (whatever the language) NAME II, TITLE of PLACE. Again, Burgundy provides us a good example, since there were at the same time, Dukes and Counts of Burgundy, which means that Philip I of Burgundy, eg, is less informative. Muriel G 10:53, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
To whom it may interest:- User:Tkinias is not pleased with me at the moment, because I started transferring some of his articles, eg. Jules-Charles-Victurnien, 7e duc de Noailles, to what I thought was the correct title, ie. "7th duc" rather than "7e". But in all the verbiage above, I don't think we ever discussed ordinals. In fact, I didn't realise the French even used them. So, anyone got any opinions? Deb 11:22, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I believe I brought this up a while ago on WikiProject Peerage, but not many people seem to watch there, so I thought I'd bring it up here: at the moment all life peers have their articles at the names they had before they were ennobled, but I think the system should be the same as it is for hereditary peers. While there are obviously exceptions such as Jeffrey Archer and Paddy Ashdown, most life peers are now plucked from obscurity or were unknown backbench MPs, and are almost always known by their peerage and not their name. How many people would realise that Thomas Henry Bingham was Lord Bingham of Cornhill, the Senior Law Lord, or that Ted Short was Lord Glenamara? The standard format for hereditary peers (Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington) even allows both pre-ennnoblement name and peerage to appear in the title, which is surely the best of both worlds and allows the greatest amount of instant recognition. I believe that unless a peer is overwhelmingly better known by their pre-ennoblement name alone (normally through being a famous politician), then both the name and the peerage should appear in the article title. Charlie Falconer, Baron Falconer of Thoroton would make it much more obvious to most people at first glance, or in a Google search, that the article was about the Lord Chancellor and not some random bloke who happened to have the same surname as him. Proteus (Talk) 11:34, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, I agree. john k 16:10, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I didn't think the existing rules were that prescriptive. Didn't we have a vote on that just the other day? Deb 12:11, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Would anyone have any objections, then, if I removed the paragraph about life peers and changed "Members of the hereditary nobility (ie, people who inherit their title), such as a marquess, viscount, count, duke. earl, etc., as with royals have two names" in paragraph 1 of that section to "Members of the nobility, such as a marquess, viscount, count, duke. earl, etc. (in the UK both hereditary and life peers), as with royals have two names"? Proteus (Talk) 18:26, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the article on Catherine Oxenberg's mother should, according to our naming conventions, be at Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia, the name she uses in English-speaking countries, and which is part of her organization, the "Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia Foundation". However, others seem to think otherwise. We now have redirects (as the results of moves, etc.) at Kneginja Jelisaveta Karadjordjevic, Jelisaveta Karadjorjdevic, Princess Jelisaveta of Serbia, Countess Elizabeth of Serbia, Countess Jelisaveta of Serbia, Countess Jelisaveta of Serbia and Yugoslavia, Princess Elisabeth of Yugoslavia, and Princess Jelisaveta of Serbia and Yugoslavia. There are (at present) no double redirects, but they are created whenever someone decides on another name. Some guidance as to the proper place for the article would be welcome! -- Nunh-huh 18:49, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don`t agree. here is why-her family karadjordjevic is calling themselfs royal family of serbia and yugoslavia.Her family reigned both, Serbia and Yugoslavia. that is the first thing. so we have of Serbia and Yugoslavia; then her name is Jelisaveta and you can say it is just translated in english as elizabeth but you cannot translate it like petar-peter. now we have Jelisaveta of Serbia and Yugoslavia; her title is-princess(self proclaimed) and real-kneginja which is similar to countess, or duchess I don`t know. But we can write princess anyway. So finally it is Princess Jelisaveta of Serbia and Yugoslavia.
Avala 10:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
of Serbia and Yugoslavia!!! Avala 12:38, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Muriel's suggestion implies that she's "The Princess of Serbia and Yugoslavia". I don't think this is the case. She is "Princess Elizabeth of ...." What about proper names? --Jiang 14:14, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes but she is not direct princess. She could never become queen unless half of the family dies. You can see family tree on royal family website.
Current crown prince is related to her over his father who had a brother with daughter --->Jelisaveta.
Finally she is not Elizabeth,elisabeth, or elizabeta she is Jelisaveta. I repeated numerous times that you cannot really translate it like petar-peter. It would be like if I translate your name Muriel as Milan in Serbian because it is similar.
Avala 15:53, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If she is more commonly called "Elizabeth" than "Jelisaveta" in English (which a quick Google search would seem to indicate is the case) then that's the name that should be used in her article title. We regularly translate the names of royalty if the anglicisation is more common than the original. Proteus (Talk) 16:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
ok but i get much more on jelisaveta karadjordjevic than elizabeth karadjordjevic Avala 16:54, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A couple of points:
SEE THIS:
Aleksandar ========== PETAR --- ARSEN ALEKSANDAR I - PAVLE PETAR II JELISAVETA ALEKSANDAR II
this tree has a fault because jelisaveta is distant sister of alexander II not aunt. i think that there is one more alexander than needed - (unsigned comment by Avala).
The page has now been moved to Jelisaveta, Princess of Serbia and Yugoslavia], breaking the redirects. Avala, please stop moving the page based on your personal preferences and try to follow our naming conventions. Also, what matters is what she calls herself, or rather what name she is known by in English, and that is Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia. She does not seem to share your objection to translation, which is the standard here. What her relatives call themselves (e.g. adding "of Serbia" because of their aspirations) is a tangential issue. - Nunh-huh 21:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ga, Jelisaveta, Princess of Serbia and Yugoslavia is awful. Can we just get it back to Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia? Also, Avala is clearly ignorant of English terms for cousin relationships. The Crown Prince and Elizabeth are second cousins, once removed. And the Family tree he presents is not incorrect - there is not an extra generation. john k 03:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)