Discussion

I have refactored this page to separate the !votes from the discussion, to ease the job of other editors who wish to weigh in and of any administrators reviewing the matter. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments by page author

Wikipedia guidelines say I need two sources, I've given more than two

I have given multiple extremely credible and highly respected sources with proof of their scholarship. It is they who tell us of the progenitor of Medrano. If you do not agree with it you'll have to call The Navarre Provincal Council and the San Fernando Academy of History and Fine Arts, they will tell you who these men are and how credible these men are.

According to wikipedia: Most of the time an article will be deleted because the sourcing is not good enough. On Wikipedia, the general inclusion threshold is whether the subject is notable enough for at least two people to have written something substantive (more than just a mention) about that subject that has been published in a reliable source.

Full Objection for Deletion:

I, Geronimo Virula Medrano El will provide  the full, complete, neutral, authentic and true citations, sources, publishers and references here-in. Do not think that because my surname is Medrano, that I am here to "write a passionate" or biased declaration of anyone or anything, I am simply doing my part in contributing to wikipedia. The sources are readily available, it is not "Original Research" like you falsely claim, these are secondary sources, all of my information does have reliable published sources. I have not combined the published sources in a way that would imply anything other than the truth, these sources do explicitly state the facts I have given. I am prepared to cite reliable sources for everything, because they are readily available. The purpose of wikipedia is to provide the public with articles that summarize accepted knowledge, written neutrally and sourced reliably. The information I am about to provide is accepted knowledge, written nuetrally and sourced reliably. Therefore, this is not a violation of Wikipedia's Conflict of interest (COI) and should be published to the world.

Descendants of Andres Velaz de Medrano

https://listarojapatrimonio.org/lista-roja-patrimonio/wp-content/uploads/Las-casas-se%C3%B1oriales-de-Olloqui-y-Belaz-de-Medrano.pdf on Page 41 Julio Altadill writes in the "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" a list of Andres Velaz de Medrano's descendants, starting from:

"Pedro González de Medrano, who attended the victorious day of las Navas de Tolosa, forming part of the brilliant entourage that accompanied D. Sancho el Fuerte, and constituted him the most significant nobility of the Kingdom." SOURCE: (V. The Entourage of the Strong King.—Pamplona, 1922.) 

I understand you did a quick google search for the name Andres Velaz de Medrano but I assure you it requires patience, critical thinking and double checking sources when dealing with men of antiquity. Don Andrés Félix Velaz de Medrano is a noble of the 17th century, clearly not from the 10th century. Let's not get confused now. Due to the fact that we have a full list of these lords, their descendants and heirs, starting wtih Don Andres Velaz de Medrano, and the fact that the Medrano family has been included in numerous sources like "V. The Entourage of the Strong King.—Pamplona, 1922." and "Archivo del Reino—varios lugares" and "Picina, - Moret: Anales de Navarra, Escolios y adiciones al reinado de Teobaldo II" just to name just a few, the truth of this Moorish Prince, Andres Velaz de Medrano is without a doubt of contradition.

To further my point, another list of the descendants of Andres Velaz de Medrano appears starting on page 217 of the "Nobiliario y armeria general de Nabarra” - Volumes 1-3 by J. Argamasilla de la Cerda y Bayona" however it only lists the descendants of "Inigo Velaz de Medrano, lord of Sartaguda". (SOURCE: Picina, - Moret: Anales de Navarra, Escolios y adiciones al reinado de Teobaldo II). Inigo was also included in "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" so we know of his forefathers.

It is in the "Nobiliario y armeria general de Nabarra" that descendants of Andres Velaz de Medrano is mentioned as united in marriage with the noble Pineiro, Mauleon, La Pena and Dicastillo families along with their numerous titles, deeds and achievements. SOURCE: Starting from Page 217 of "Nobiliario y armeria general de Nabarra” - Volumes 1-3 by J. Argamasilla de la Cerda y Bayona" published by Imprenta de San Francisco de Sales, 1899 https://books.google.ca/books?id=9MhDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=medrano+y+almoravid&source=bl&ots=iz6UmXbPtG&sig=ACfU3U3LOefOEYf6fVgY6H9sDyWWawN3rA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-jKympIrzAhWeRjABHaxRBBoQ6AF6BAgBEAE#v=onepage&q=medrano%20y%20almoravid&f=false

Also, "L'Hifstoire du Royaume de Navarre, Ferreras, Mayerne Turquet," Page 464, of "the Modern Part of a Universal History, From the Earliest Account of Time: The History of Navarre" named Don Juan Martinez de Medrano, a son of Inigo Velaz de Medrano, as regent of the Kingdom of Navarre.

On Page 464 of "L'Hifstoire du Royaume de Navarre, Ferreras, Mayerne Turquet, The Modern Part of a Universal History, From the Earliest Account of Time: The History of Navarre" published by S. Richardson, T. Osborne, C. Hitch, A. Millar, John Rivington, S. Crowder, P. Davey and B. Law, T. Longman, and C. Ware., 1760, Original from Oxford University Digitized 21 Jun 2006 it explicity states:

"Philip de Valois, in the same assembly, which decided in favour of his right against Edward the third, disclaimed all pretensions of Navarre, which he acknowledged to belong to Philip count of Evreux, his brother-in law, in right of his consort. But the states of Navarre did not either wait for or take notice of this, but proclaimed her queen immediately, appointing Don Juan Cordoban de Lehet, and Don Juan Martinez de Medrano, lord of Arroniz, to administer public affairs in her name, with the title of regents. A solemn embassy was also sent to Rome, in the name of the queen, which was extremely well received.” SOURCE: https://books.google.ca/books?id=CE0BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA464&lpg=PA464&dq=the+history+of+arroniz,+navarre&source=bl&ots=TeFTG8MeUR&sig=ACfU3U0nP8bvgYMza1SuAobl3Ek9fBax0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5v_frb33AhVFCM0KHR_yCd8Q6AF6BAgoEAM#v=onepage&q=the%20history%20of%20arroniz%2C%20navarre&f=false

"From the beginning of the century he was known by the nickname of the Elder, no doubt to distinguish him from his namesake son, the Younger, who in 1323 received a rich manhood. His leading role on the political scene came after the death of the last Capetian sovereign, Charles the Bald, on February 1, 1328." SOURCE: Real Academia de la Historia https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/57535/juan-martinez-de-medrano

"The promotion of Juan Vélaz de Medrano and Corbarán de Lehet to the head of the merindades of Tierra Estella and la Ribera must have been orchestrated by his relatives and mentors, the rulers themselves." J. M. LACARRA, El juramento…, no. 13. On kinship, cf. F. SEGURA URRA, “Martínez de Medrano, Juan, ‘el Mayor’”, Spanish Biographical Dictionary (in press).

This is confirmed in the "Nobiliario y armeria general de Nabarra” - Volumes 1-3 by J. Argamasilla de la Cerda y Bayona". SOURCE: https://books.google.ca/books?id=9MhDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=medrano+y+almoravid&source=bl&ots=iz6UmXbPtG&sig=ACfU3U3LOefOEYf6fVgY6H9sDyWWawN3rA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-jKympIrzAhWeRjABHaxRBBoQ6AF6BAgBEAE#v=onepage&q=medrano%20y%20almoravid&f=false

So you see, not only do I have a list of Andres Velaz de Medrano's descendants, but the achievements of the Medrano family is extensive, which I will be providing soon thanks to these wonderful sources.

Don Juan Velaz de Medrano, Alcaide of the Castle of Maya^[7]

Don Jaime Velaz de Medrano, Alcaide of Amauir-Maya in 1521-1522^[8] who was extensively Detailed in the facsimile edition of 'The letters of Amaiur-Maya' from Jaime Velaz de Medrano' presented in the Parliament of Navarra. In a facsimile edition published by Mintzoa, the correspondence of the captain who defended the castle to the end in 1522 comes to light. Exciting texts that "give voice to the voiceless", changing the story of History. The voice of the voiceless.

One of these letters are notable because it was sent by King Enrique II to Don Juan Velaz de Medrano, warden of the Maya castle, informing of the oath of fidelity of the inhabitants of Cinco Villas, Baztán and Tierra de Lerín and requesting an end to mistreatment.^[9]

This is how Aritz Otazu defines the letters from the last of the Amaiur-Maya castle, which his editorial, Mintzoa, has published in a facsimile edition. Amaiur-Maya (Basque: Amaiur; Spanish: Maya de Baztán; officially: Amaiur-Maya) is a village in the municipality of Baztan in the autonomous region of Navarre in Spain. It is situated in the Pyrenees mountain range close to the border with France. The fortress of Amaiur, sitting on a hill by the village, was one of the key medieval strongholds of the Kingdom of Navarre. It was one of the few fortresses in Navarre making a stand against the Castilian invasion of 1512, once they had taken over Pamplona. It bore witness to frequent battles between the combined French-Navarrese and the Spanish imperial forces (Ferdinand the Catholic, Charles V), with the most famous being the Battle of Amaiur (Maya) in 1522, when the Medrano family held the last Navarrese stronghold in an attempt to resist the Spanish (Castilian-Aragonese) push.

"Now there is a slight possibility that this is not a hoax, but rather based on old Spanish legends about the firstborn of the Caliph becoming a Christian prince" - says the wikipedia user and editor Apaugasma

No, this is not a hoax or just a legend. Good try, but no dictionary or legitimate institution would publish actual information about a family if it was based on a hoax or an old spanish legend. Peter Pineda's dictionary is not based on hoax or legends. Thanks to the Hispania Nostra Scientific Committee, Pedro Pineda and Julio Altadill and Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla (and potentially Don Francisco Mosquera Barnuevo) we have knowledge of the Moorish Prince Andres Velaz de Medrano, and because the Medrano family clearly asked the Hispania Nostra Scientific Committee who worked with Julio Altadill and Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla to preserve the knowledge and history of the Palace of Velaz de Medrano, including the progenitor, The Moorish Price known as Don Andres Velaz de Medrano.

The Men who wrote about Andres Velaz de Medrano

1. Julio Altadill 2. Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla 3. Mr. Francisco Mosqeura Barnuevo 4. Peter Pineda

Julio Altadill

Julio Altadill y Torrontera de Sancho San Román (Toledo, May 8, 1858 - Pamplona, May 4, 1935) was a Spanish soldier and historian, disseminator of the culture and art of Navarra.

Julio Altadill wrote about Don Andres Velaz de Medrano in a book called "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano". Julio Altadill was a member of the Hispanic-American Academy of Sciences and Arts, vice-president of the Historical and Artistic Monuments Commission of Navarra, directing the Informative Bulletin and in 1920 secretary of the Second Congress of Basque Studies, he carried out an extensive dissemination of historical studies of Navarra, both in conferences and in articles.

He began his studies at the San Miguel Seminary in Pamplona, having to interrupt them due to the Carlist Wars, to later continue with high school at the Institute in this city. He went to study at the University of Madrid, to enter the Madrid Military Quartermaster Academy in the summer of 1875 and finish his studies at the age of nineteen in Ávila, in July 1877. When he finished he stayed as an assistant professor at this center where had completed his studies.

He kept accounts of the works of the Fort of San Cristóbal , on Mount Ezcaba near Pamplona. He served as the Secretary of the Intendancy of the Sixth Military Region and the Directorate of the Parks of Pamplona and Vitoria. In the Quartermaster Corps, he participated from the Iberian Peninsula in support operations for the war in Cuba, and operated in Africa, in the Rif campaign of 1909. He was decorated with the white Grand Cross of Military Merit, the cross and plaque of the Order of San Hermenegildo, and the white Cross of 2nd pensioner for his military career in 1917.

In 1910, near the celebration of the anniversary of the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, Altadill, together with Hermilio de Olóriz and Arturo Campión, designed the coat of arms and the current flag of Navarre, which the Navarre Provincial Council approved that same year.From a very young age, he carried out research work on history and art with a great profusion of works, so at the age of twenty-four, in 1902, he was appointed academician at the San Fernando Academy of History and Fine Arts.

Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla

Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla (Estella, 6/26/1872-Madrid, 2/5/1957). Lawyer and historian. Graduated in Philosophy and Letters and Law from the University of Madrid, where he was a student of Menéndez y Pelayo, he practiced law in Estella and was dean of the city's Bar Association.

With Julio Altadill, he wrote substantially on the Medrano family and the Moorish Prince in a book called "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano". In it, he stated his knowledge of the progenitor, the Prince Don Andrés Velaz de Medrano and his Palace, and that he lived in this palace as the lord of Igúzquiza, Navarra.

Delegate in Estella and Irache of the Monuments Commission of Navarra *, he was a member of the Council of Culture of Navarra * and corresponding academician of the Fine Arts of San Fernando and Sciences and Arts of Barcelona.

He won (1913) the first prize of the Bibliographic-Marian Academy of Lérida with Descriptive and historical memory of the image and sanctuary of Our Lady of Puy de Estella, reissued four times in the published (1912-1913) Index of ancient documents of the Municipal Archive of Estella (1914), Sancho el Fuerte and the chains of Estella and Irache (1912), and Two Roman tombstones (1913), this confirmed with Julio Altadill *, referring to the romanization of Estella.

He collaborated with Bishops from Estella in the Homage of admiration (...) to our countryman (...) Wenceslao de Oñate (Estella, 1897). In four installments he published in "La Avalancha" (1903) San Juan Bautista de Estella, documented work, prepared from the Catalog of books and papers that exist in the parish of San Juan Bautista de Estella, an unpublished work in which JM also collaborated Lacara *.

He also transcribed the Historical Memories of the City of Estella, by Baltasar de Lezáun y Andía *, of which he had a copy dated 1710, with additions (1792) by Pascual de Larráinzar.(Great Encyclopedia of Navarra) In 1910, a first Museum opened to the public in the current headquarters of the Regional Audit Office (Cámara de Comptos) with the objective of being a beacon of popular enlightenment.

Years later, this mission would be continued by the Institution Prince of Viana (Institución Príncipe de Viana) created in 1940 by the Provincial Council of Navarre (Diputación Foral de Navarra) in order to protect, restore and research the artistic and archaeological heritage of Navarre.

Peter Pineda

The first Spanish and English bilingual dictionary compiled by a Spaniard was based on the dictionary of Captain John Stevens and offered for sale as the work of Peter Pineda, an emigré who had fled from his native Andalusia for religious reasons.1 One of the English title pages supplies the information that he was the "author of the Spanish grammar and teacher of the Spanish Language in London". In so far as the title pages are concerned the English-speaking user was kept especially in mind because three of the title pages were written in English: one for the whole work, one for the Spanish-English part, and one for the English-Spanish part which follows.2 There is one title page in the Spanish language and it reads as follows: NUEVO / DICIONARIO, / ESPAÑOL e INGLES / E / INGLES y ESPAÑOL. / QUE CONTIENE / La ETIMOLOGIA, de la PROPRIA, y METAPHORICA / SIGNIFICACION de las PALABRAS, / TÉRMINOS de ARTES y SCIENCIAS; / NOMBRES de HOMBRES, FAMI-LIAS, LUGARES, Y DE LAS / PRINCIPALES PLANTAS, / tanto / En ESPAÑA, como en las INDIAS-OCCIDENTALES, / JUNTO CON / Las PALABRAS ARABIGAS y MORISCAS / RECEBIDAS EN LA / LENGUA ESPAÑOLA. / CON LA / EXPLICACIÓN de las PALABRAS difíciles, PROVERBIOS, y FRASES / En DON QUIXOTE, y en los Otros graves AUTORES de dicha Lengua. / Corregièndo los ERRORES, que en los antecedentes DICIONARIOS avia, / añadiendo seis mil Palabras en el ESPAÑOL, y doze mil en el INGLES. / Muy necessario, y provechoso, para leèr, y entender, los LENGUAGES Español, è Ingles. / Por PEDRO PINEDA, / Autor de la GRAMATICA ESPAÑOLA, y Maestro de dicha Lengua en la Ciudad de Londres / EN LONDRES: / Por F. GYLES, T. WOODWARD, T. COX, J. CLARKE, A. MILLAR, y P. VAILLANT. / MDCCXL. The large folio volume 23 X 37 and a half cm. and 5 cm. thick which contains this work 1 See M. Menéndez Pelayo, op. cit., V, 121; Amado Alonso, "Formación del timbre ciceante", NRFH, 1951.^[10]

Mr. Francisco Mosquera Barnuevo

Francisco Mosquera de Barnuevo. Son of Don Diego de Barnuevo Mosquera and, therefore, a descendant of this lineage from Soria, he was born in Granada and was a resident of Seville. Graduated in Jurisprudence, he participated in the military campaigns of Carlos V and was a knight of the Orders of Calatrava and Santiago. Mosquera stylistically perfected and expanded the research of the Riojan scholar Martel, to whom the sons of Dalgo Barnuevo from the land of Soria had commissioned its compilation, lending him their archives and even those of other lineages. //...// Mosquera also wrote a Discourse on the lineages of Soria (printed in 1598) and other works on non-Soria subjects.

Among the printed works of Francisco Mosquera de Barnuevo, which are or may be related to the subject of Soria's Lineages, we can find:

- "De Nobility et privilege farfanis" (Seville -1600)
- "Testimony and memorial of the services that Mr. Francisco Mosquera de Barnuevo, and his father, and grandparents have done to His Majesty, for more than one hundred continuous years, and its parts, and qualities" (Seville - Year of printing: Francisco Escudero y Perosso in "Bibliographic Annals..." dates two copies, one in 1600 and the other in 1610; the edition consulted is that of 1610)

It is thanks to the impressive works of Julio Altadill, Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla and Mr. Francisco Mosquera Barnuevo, these highly credible and legitimately respected scholars proves without doubt of contradition that the memory of Andres Velaz de Medrano is not fake nor a joke. Their credibility and historical research of Navarra has given unprecedented proof of the progenitor of Medrano, the Moorish Prince Andres Velaz de Medrano.

Conclusion and Objection

Julio Altadill was a member of the Hispanic-American Academy of Sciences and Arts, vice-president of the Historical and Artistic Monuments Commission of Navarra, directing the Informative Bulletin and in 1920 secretary of the Second Congress of Basque Studies, he carried out an extensive dissemination of historical studies of Navarra, both in conferences and in articles. Don Pedro Emiliano Zorilla worked side by side with Julio Altadill on the Velaz de Medrano project. This Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla practiced law in Estella and was dean of the city's Bar Association. Delegate in Estella and Irache of the Monuments Commission of Navarra *, he was a member of the Council of Culture of Navarra * and corresponding academician of the Fine Arts of San Fernando and Sciences and Arts of Barcelona. He won (1913) the first prize of the Bibliographic-Marian Academy of Lérida with Descriptive and historical memory of the image and sanctuary of Our Lady of Puy de Estella, reissued four times.

The information about Don Andres Velaz de Medrano is shocking, however that does not give you permission to "delete" the page simply because you don't believe it to be true. I have provided the proof, I have provided the sources and I have provided page numbers. Don Andres Velaz de Medrano, son of Al-Hakam II, is not to be confused with anyone from the 17th century, he was a son of the Umayyad dynasty, heir apparent to the Umayyad Caliphate until his father nominated his younger brother.

The evidence you provided to rebut me is weak, as "meager references" of his death is not enough to dispute my claim and goes against wikipedias rules as "meager references" are not enough to publish articles. It is well known that history, especially "arabic" history, has been a conflict of interest, mainly due to the extent of their reach and their involvement in Europe. The late Luisa Isabel Álvarez de Toledo, 21st Duchess of Medina Sidonia, she said in an interview with BBC that she is aware of the attempt to clean up history in the 16th century, to alter origins. She thought that would have made the hero more palatable to Spain's Christian society. If this is true, then why would writers of the 17th, 19th and 20th centuries attribute Don Andres Velaz de Medrano to a Moorish Prince, that is, a Moslem Prince. Surely, the Christians would have not taken to this information lightly. Yet, the history and accounts of this Moorish Prince remains, without a doubt of contradiction.

Abd Al-Rahman did not die, that is a lie. His lineage is evident by: his descendants, the hawk of quraish on his shield above the doorway at the Palace of Velaz de Medrano in Iguzquiza which still stands today. in 979, there were only two princes of Cordoba, and Abd Al-Rahman was the eldest. The relations that the Medrano family share with the ancient Kings of Navarre, Castile, Leon, Portugal, France, and the Holy Roman Empire especially during the time of Carlos V (and Don Juan Velaz de Medrano, Alcaide of the castle of Amauir-Maya in 1521-1522) and other monarchs; as well as the most impressive Luisa de Medrano Bravo Lagunas Cienfuegos who was one of the few "Puellae Doctae" and latin university professor at Salamanca University in Spain during the reign of Isabel the Catolica, in fact, In 1943, the Ministry of National Education granted, at the proposal of the Cloister of the National Institute of Secondary Education of Salamanca, female, that this Institute be called "Lucía de Medrano". On October 12, 2015, the Rectorate and the University of Salamanca agreed that the Hall of Cloisters of the Higher Schools of the University be named "Lucía de Medrano" as a dedication to the first female professor in Spain and Europe. In the same year 2015, the Castilla-La Mancha Community Board created the Castilla-La Mancha International Award for Gender Equality "Luisa de Medrano", which has been awarded annually since 2016 by the Castilla-La Woman Institute in La Mancha with the aim of distinguishing those people, groups, entities or institutions that have stood out or stand out in the defense of equality between women and men. . The many duties these men and women did for Kings and Queens during their time only further proves my point. With all of the true sources, publishers and secondary research provided with page numbers, I am therefore objecting this deletion for the page of Don Andres Velaz de Medrano. Thank you for your time.

- Geronimo Virula Medrano El

The Succession Crisis of Al-Hakam II, Heir Presumptive vs Heir Apparent

Wikipedia user Apaugasma incorrectly claims as fact that: "the firstborn son of the Umayyad caliph of Cordoba al-Hakam II (915–976), who in fact died as a young boy: this source, p. 23 says that "meager references to Abd al-Rahman in the sources mention his birth and premature death", giving as dates of birth and death 962 and 970 respectively; the Encyclopaedia of Islam entry on al-Hakam II calls Hisham II (966–1013) "his only son" at the time of succession in 976."

However, in the al-Wasif, M. F. (2012). "Mustansir, al-Hakam". Biblioteca de al-Andalus. Vol. 7. Árabes Fundación Ibn Tufayl de Estudios Árabes. p. 591, it records: "Al-Hakam’s youngest son Hisham II was 11 years old at the time and was a nominal ruler under Almanzor. He succeeded Al-Hakam II. Al-Ḥakam II took an oath of allegiance to his youngest son as heir presumptive to the caliphate, an act that took place on the 1st of Jumāda II of 365 AH (= 5 February 975) in the Alcazar of Cordoba."^[1] which means your source is incorrect. You say "dates of birth and death 962 and 970 respectively" however Abd Al-Rahman was alive as heir apparent in 975, given the fact that Hisham II was sworn in as heir presumptive, a title only bestowed to those with a living elder brother.

It is also documented by Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla, Julio Altadill and the Hispania Nostra Scientific Committee published by the Red List of Hispania Nostra on page 39-40 of "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" about the Moorish Prince Andres Velaz de Medrano that:

"Being a Christian, he became their leader, for which the Caliph of Córdoba had great feelings, and since he was very powerful among the Moors, having great wealth." This proves that Abd Al-Rahman was alive in 979 AD during the time of Caliph Hisham II.

Muʿāwiyah, in securing during his lifetime an oath of allegiance to his son Yazīd I, disregarded the traditional election (bayʿah) and introduced the old concept of hereditary succession.^[2]

Heir Apparent vs Heir Presumptive

Al-Hakam’s youngest son Hisham II was 11 years old at the time and was a nominal ruler under Almanzor. He succeeded Al-Hakam II. Al-Ḥakam II took an oath of allegiance to his youngest son as heir presumptive to the caliphate, an act that took place on the 1st of Jumāda II of 365 AH (= 5 February 975) in the Alcazar of Cordoba.^[3]

The heir presumptive (Hisham II) is one whose right may be defeated by the birth of a nearer heir.^[4][5]

The heir apparent (Abd Al-Rahman) is one whose right to inherit is indefeasible as long as he or she outlives the property holder. In the majority of hereditary monarchies, the eldest child of the sovereign is heir apparent to the crown. He has the right to the titles and the crown. Hisham II was recorded as the heir presumptive, not heir apparent, which means that the heir apparent Abd Al-Rahman was still alive during the oath of allegiance.^[6]

Don Andres Velaz de Medrano was well versed in the management of affairs and in the command of the armies, capable of making his mandates obeyed, and of maintaining himself in power and highly respected amongst the Moors; an excellent hereditary candidate to the Umayyad Caliphate. However, he did not succeed Al-Hakam II, his brother Hisham II reigned instead.

Brothers and their descendants sometimes quarreled over their allocations, or even became estranged. While agnatic primogeniture became a common way of keeping the family's wealth intact and reducing familial disputes, it did so at the expense of other sons and their descendants. Both before and after a state legal default of inheritance by primogeniture, younger brothers sometimes vied with older brothers to be chosen their father's heir, after the choice was made, to appoint the heir presumptive instead of the heir apparent. However, in the death of the heir apparent, only then would the heir presumptive would thus be named heir apparent.

Peter Pineda and Medrano, the Moorish Prince

I will now start with Peter Pineda's most famous dictionary called “A New Dictionary, Spanish and English and English and Spanish, Containing the Etymology, the Proper and Metaphorical Signification of Words, Terms of Arts and Sciences, Names of Men, Families, Places, and of the Principal Plants in Spain and the West-Indies. Together wih the Arabic and Moorish Words Now Commonly received in the Spanish Tongue, and an Explanation of the difficult Words, Proverbs and Phrases, in Don Quixote, and others the most celebrated writers in the language by Peter Penida, Author of the Spanish Grammar and teacher of Spanish Lanuage in London / EN LONDRES: / Por F. GYLES, T. WOODWARD, T. COX, J. CLARKE, A. MILLAR, y P. VAILLANT. / MDCCXL.”. published by por F. Gyles, 1740

In this dictionary, Peter Pineda explicitly states:

"Medráno, the Sir-Name of a Noble Family in Spain, lineally descended from a Moorish Prince who was converted and baptized 800 years ago." - Peter Pineda SOURCE: https://books.google.ca/books?id=9z3WrCXSPk4C&pg=PP606&lpg=PP606&dq=moorish+prince+medrano&source=bl&ots=N7u4dM-Sti&sig=ACfU3U0pUZkUS6-iLNMyEIDPAtD_RtMbqQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiSlfmZg5n1AhVpkIkEHY_VCdYQ6AF6BAgYEAM#v=snippet&q=medr%C3%A1no&f=false 

Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla, Julio Altadill and the Hispania Nostra Scientific Committee

Second, I will now provide the work of Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla and Julio Altadill in a secondary source called "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" published by The Red List of Hispania Nostra. The The Red List of Hispania Nostra is a tool for social participation created with the aim of publicizing, raising awareness and acting on the heritage elements of the Spanish territory that are at risk of disappearing. Hispania Nostra launched the Red List in 2007 with the aim of offering society a channel for participation in the defense, conservation and improvement of its cultural and natural heritage and making visible all those assets at risk of disappearance, destruction or essential alteration of their values. Any person or association can request the inclusion of a property on the Red List , by completing the form that appears on the website: https://listaroja.hispanianostra.org/nueva-ficha/ if they consider that the integrity of said property is threatened. right.

From there, the Hispania Nostra Scientific Committee analyzes the complaints and requests as much additional information as it deems necessary from the competent administrations, the property, other institutions, the Hispania Nostra area delegates , etc. Once all the information has been reviewed, the Scientific Committee decides the inclusion in the Red Listwhen there is a certain risk of loss of the property's values, and if it is considered that this risk does not exist, its inclusion is rejected. The Red List of Hispania Nostra wants to be, therefore, the common project of a society that values ​​its History and that is fully committed to the conservation of its heritage as a physical witness of it, of a society that considers education as the best guarantee for its conservation and enrichment as an essential part of our selves, of our roots, of who we are as a society and, above all, as people. You can read more about the Red List of Hispania Nostra on their official page: https://listaroja.hispanianostra.org/quienes-somos-que-es/

It is from Julio Altadill, Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla and the Red List of Hispania Nostra Scientific Commitee that we receive the natural and cultural heritage of the Medrano family and information on the Velaz de Medrano Palace. In the book "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" it explicitly states on page 39-40:

English: battered by time and by men, a large part of this noble and ancient plot of land that belonged to the Vélaz de Medrano family still stands, whose illustrious surname is derived from a legendary Moorish prince who, at the head of a powerful army, entered Navarre through the years of 979, who is supposed to be secretly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, and as such persecuted by the devil, who, taking on the human figure, was acting as a steward at his service, to assassinate him on an auspicious occasion; and they say that this great lord, being in Igúzquiza accompanied by his devilish servant, was praying the Hail Mary, when suddenly a goshawk came, carrying a ribbon written with the angelic salutation hanging from its beak, and perching on the hand of this Prince, it was seen Immediately, the Apostle Saint Andrew entered the enclosure, who exhorted and baptized him, fleeing the feigned mayordomo with great noises and frightful earthquakes. The knight took the name of Andrés, after the Apostle who regenerated him to grace, and the name Vélaz or Belaz, which in the Basque language means goshawk, for the one that landed on his hand, and for weapons a goshawk in his hand and the Ave Maria on the beak, bordering the shield with the crosses of Saint Andrew. Being a Christian, he became their leader, for which the Caliph of Córdoba had great feelings, and since he was very powerful among the Moors, having great wealth, which he then lost, without the king of Navarre, whom he served, gave a lot, he asked: "Medra or not?", answering him: "no Medra, no," giving him the surname of Medrano. Such is the fantastic way that following the currents so in vogue among not a few chroniclers of the 17th century, one of them tried to explain the origin of the name, the surname and the coat of arms, of which They are supposed to be the head of the Vélaz de Medrano family. It also appears on his coat of arms. And this is, without a doubt, the one, already very blurred, over the main door of the Igúzquiza palace, whose photograph illustrates these lines... - Pedro Emiliano Zorilla (Estella. Febrero de 1923.) SOURCE: https://listarojapatrimonio.org/lista-roja-patrimonio/wp-content/uploads/Las-casas-se%C3%B1oriales-de-Olloqui-y-Belaz-de-Medrano.pdf

In it, Don Pedro Emiliano Zorilla also excplicitly writes about the Palace of Medrano and that it was rebuilt in the 16th century:

"Of the antiquity of this one, located in Igúzquiza (valley of Santesteban de la Solana, judicial district of Estella), when Don Ferran Velaz de Medrano married Doña Elvira de Goñi, it was already deshcribed as very old; and this adjective is corroborated by the fact that Don Ferran Velaz de Medrano himself extensively rebuilt it, and it was famous for its splendid festivities celebrated in it by his Lord, his children and grandchildren, to which he and his children and grandchildren, were often attended by the Navarrese Monarchs themselves. This ancient building, reconstructed in the 16th century, conserves the large parade ground, with its low embrasured walls flanking its entrance, the high quadrangular tower rises in its southeast corner, remade in the 16th century, to the southeast. - Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla  SOURCE: https://listarojapatrimonio.org/lista-roja-patrimonio/wp-content/uploads/Las-casas-se%C3%B1oriales-de-Olloqui-y-Belaz-de-Medrano.pdf

You can easily see the Palace of Velaz de Medrano here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UomIMGU998o video by Julio Asuncion, all credit goes to him You can also see the Palace of Velaz de Medrano here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWO1ZqH627s video by buscavu.com all credit goes to them

Subsequent comments from editors, page author and replies

Velaz may well be a notable son of Al-Hakam II, or he may not. Given that this biography is almost entirely unsourced, we'd have no way of knowing. I believe that WP:TNT applies here -- if we were to remove all of the unsourced bits, we'd have literally nothing left. What sources I find online are either mirrors of Wikipedia or are history texts written before 1900 whose reliability is questionable. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:48, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs)

Comment @Geronimo Virula Medrano El: You've provided three authors and written extensively about their qualifications. However, you cite the first two (Julio Altadill and Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla) once each, and that only in connection with the Palace of Velaz de Medrano. You don't cite the third author (Francisco Mosquera Barnuevo) even once, but that's OK, because it is generally accepted that biographies written by family members (especially those written in the 1600s, as we might presume about Barnuevo) are highly unreliable as they tend to bend the facts to their desired narrative to promote their own lineage. By and large, the vast majority of the article is unsourced. It may well be that you have done extensive research into this biography, but without seeing what sources you've used, we cannot know if any of the material is verifiable.WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of these scholars (Pedro Pineda, Don Emiliano Zorrilla, Julio Altadill, Mr. Mosquera Barnuevo) are family members of Andres Velaz de Medrano. They wrote about him because it is the truth. Look, this is not a random page. This comes from an accepted (and divine) genealogical study and therefore a therefore a biography of Andres Velaz de Medrano and his forefathers includes his genealogy. These men are highly credible and not "bending information to their will". Please, that is ridiculous. Once again talk to the many institutions that vouch for these men. They've more authority in the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 15:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Geronimo Virula Medrano El: Look, this is not a random page. This is a divine genealogical study and declaration of my national forefathers. That may be the basic problem here. You are not writing a dispassionate neutral biography, you are declaring the divine nature of your family. Your conflict of interest is clouding your vision on this issue. You are claiming, as fact, that Velaz de Medrano is a direct descendant of Adam, a figure from Abrahamic mythology. That speaks volumes about the value of this biography as an encyclopedia article. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of these scholars are family members of Andres Velaz de Medrano. Nothing in this page has been disputed nor has it been rebutted yet, in fact all information including the divine genealogy of Don Andres Velaz de Medrano is readily available, tracing his paternal ancestry is not difficult. My goal here is to write a "dispassionate" nuetral and accurate description of Andres Velaz de Medrano. Including his genealogy (which traces back to Abraham) is not against Wikipedia rules, it is just against your opinion, which, is not a rule nor law in wiki, Dan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 16:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is in the book "Las casas señoriales de Olloqui y Belaz de Medrano" by Julio Altadill and Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla that we find out about Don Andres Velaz de Medrano, Progenitor of Medrano, first owner of the Palace of Velaz de Medrano. You can also take it up with the Institution Prince of Viana. I have numerous sources and highly credible institutions behind me. I object this Deletion and request it to be moved back to draft, so that it can be prepared for publishing. There are also numerous other lords of Iguzquiza who don the Velaz de Medrano name. For example: Don Juan Velaz de Medrano IV, Don Ferran Velaz de Medrano, Don Juan Velaz de Medrano V, Don Juan Velaz de Medrano VI, Don Jeronimo Velaz de Medrano y Mauleon etc. All lords of Iguzquiza.

There are other descendants of Don Andres Velaz de Medrano that will also confirm this, they were lords, mayors, counts, Marquis and Alcaides, Chamberlains, regents (in the case of Don Juan Martinez de Medrano, Regent of Navarre on 13th march 1328 for Queen Juana II while she was in paris), dukes, Inquisitors and knights. There are King's who have written to us (I have original documents). There are Castles, Palaces, Streets and Cities that don our name and crest, and a Circus named after Medrano.I can write about the Medrano family "clouding my vision" or "promoting my lineage", once again all my sources are given by highly respected institutions and credible men who were decorated with honors, given authority in the matters of history and academia, and one who wrote a dictionary. These are some of the most prestigious men in Spain of their time, therefore their credibility is valid when dealing with the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 16:07, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I most certainly am writing a dispassionate neutral biography. Mentioning his divine lineage is not writing a passionate non-nuetral biography, it's providing information about his actual forefathers, ancestry, and heritage. When writing about Abd Manaf or any one else, do you take down their forefathers ancestry too? Because they also trace their line back to Abraham, as he too is a forefather of Andres Velaz de Medrano, but Abd Manaf is not a biblical figure he was a grandfather of Prophet Muhammad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 16:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to request an actual historian or moderator who specializes in history, as I do not feel it is appropriate for wikidan to be dealing with this matter as it is clear he has very little knowledge on the subject and is constantly blinded by his own opinions. Opinions have no place beside facts backed up with sources and credible men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 16:19, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Geronimo Virula Medrano El: There is no mention at Abd Manaf's Wikipedia article of his descendancy from Abraham. Such claims are inherently unprovable since the biblical characters cannot be proven through reliable historic sources to have actually lived. You are free to believe in your ancestor's lineage back to Abraham, but Wikipedia cannot state such a thing as fact. I will agree with your assessment: I have made my nomination and defended it; and you have made your case for retention (extensively!). I recommend we wait to see what other Wikipedians think about the matter. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Acually There is mention of the biblical fathers in the history tab at: Ghalib ibn Fihr. His biblical paternal ancestry is provided. Ghalib ibn Fihr is the 23rd direct forefather of Andres Velaz de Medrano through al-Hakam II. There is also mention of Abraham on al-nadr's page, he is the 27th direct forefather of Don Andres Velaz de Medrano. So you see, there are biblical mentions in non-biblical pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 16:29, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it seems that your only dispute is with the biblical ancestry, because I've provided highly credible sources which according to wikipedia is required at least 2, I provided weay more. I even provided the credibility of these men. I look forward to hearing the rest of the replies. Thanks for your opinion & time, Dan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk • contribs) 20:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment @Geronimo Virula Medrano El: You have previously stated Look, this is not a random page. This is a divine genealogical study and declaration of my national forefathers. Now you say Do not think that because my surname is Medrano, that I am here to "write a passionate" or biased declaration of anyone or anything, I am simply doing my part in contributing to wikipedia. Both statements cannot be simultaneously true. Given your passion for the subject, it is more likely that the first statement is more likely the case. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:23, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, my purpose here is to simply do my part in contributing to wikipedia. Your mistake for "passion" was , in fact, secondary research. I am not creating this page to declare my national forefathers or create a genealogical study of them, I am providing readily information to the world about the Medrano family. I have provided the extensive sources and objection for your case, there is simply no reason for you to ignore it. Now read it, thank you. Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk) 17:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]