The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not promoted Nick-D (talk) 05:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joachim Helbig[edit]

Nominator(s): MisterBee1966 (talk)

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I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I feel it may be close. Please let me know how to improve this article further. Comments, suggestions are appreciated. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
- No problems reported with alt text, dab links, or external links. Well Done!
- "Joachim Helbig was born on 10 September 1915 in the village of Börln, which is now a part of Dahlen, Saxony." What was this back in the day?

I expanded this a little. I think it is clearer now. MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- "...a Polish reconnaissance machine." THis brings to mind images from the novel War of the worlds, although I am certain he was not shooting three legged walkers. Could you be more specific as to the nature of the machine?

That's funny, you're right. I replaced machine with aircraft. Unfortunately the type is not specified in any of my sources. MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Was he riding the motorcycle, or was he in the vehicle struck by the motorcycle? The article doesn't say, but I would like that clarified.

Sorry, my sources just state that he was injured in a motocycle accident. MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- "In October 1939, he participated in a number of missions against British shipping in the North Sea and was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd class." There is a lot of potential to expand on this part of the paragraph, as most people are only aware of the role the U-boats played in the battle of the Atlantic to stop allied shipping. I think you could easily get another paragraph out of the background behind the airstrikes and what importance such raids held for the Germans in the war. See if you can get a little more information in here on this angle, or perhaps link to another article that provides this context so we can better understand what kind of missions he was on.
- The way the article is current phrased makes it seem as though he was award for getting his aircraft shot up and three of his four man crew wounded; if anything, I suspect that would lead to a court martial. See if you can clarify that information in the last paragraph of the Invasion of Poland section.
- From a German perspective, the allied invasion of France could be interpreted any number of ways. Could narrow down the date of his promotion to colonel more precisely (ie "during operation overlord", "during the drive on paris", "during the med landings", etc) TomStar81 (Talk) 10:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point, I expanded this a little MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support A-class, but do see if you can find anything to tighten up the suggested points. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose ~~Comments~~

Links are needed for the British Mediterranean Fleet, Allies and Lehrgeschwader 1 in the lead.

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 11:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Translations of German terms should be capitalized if they're proper nouns. Kampfgeschwader is better translated as Bomber Wing and Lehrgeschwader as Demonstration

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 17:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When did he get his commission?
Which exact unit was Helbig in in September 1939? Why was he awarded the EKII?
When did he transfer to 4./LG 1? Fix the dab for LG 1. Don't overlink LG 1
What's a Zerstörergeschwader and a Jagdgeschwader?

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 11:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Helbig was the only survivor of 4./LG 1 on 15 August?

Helbig and his crew, the remaining memebers of 4th squadron did not MisterBee1966 (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How did Schlund contribute to the success of other missions?

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 17:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Combine these two sentences On 11 May 1942, at about 6 PM Hauptmann Helbig took of from Heraklion with seven aircraft of I. Gruppe/LG 1. Together with the experienced veterans Oberleutnant Iro Ilk, Oberleutnant Backhaus, Leutnant Gerhard Brenner and Oberfeldwebel Otto Leupert. and this sentence needs to be added to the paragraph describing the attack. Ships are rarely destroyed; they sink, capsize, explode, etc. What happened to Kipling?
Capitalize allied

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 11:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General der Kampflieger is best translated as Commander of Bombers

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 00:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What did Helbig and LG 1 do between June and September '44. When was he wounded? What was this small battle group called? What did it do?
How could he escape from Czechoslovakia before the war ended? Do you mean that he flew out of there before the end of the war? And when did he arrive there?

doneMisterBee1966 (talk) 17:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did Helbig ever marry or have have kids?

don't know! My sources say nothing about his private life MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:18, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that no effort has been made to use the 2 volume LG 1 history by Peter Taghon, ISBN 3-925480-88-9 and 3-925480-85-4, to resolve some of these issues regarding LG 1's activities in '44-45. And exactly what unit Helbig was assigned to in September 1939. And the almost total lack of personal information, to include when Helbig got his commission, does not meet the standard of reasonably complete at this level and for this period. One or the other might be acceptable since this isn't a FAC, but both together do not incline me to support a promotion.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did consult Peter Taghon books (note they are two 1936 to 1942 and 1942 to 1945) of LG 1. Interestingly Joachim Helbig is not mentioned much in the early years and not at all with respect to the Polish campaign. I will verify again how much additional information can be extracted for 1944. Both books render no information on his personal life. So be it MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad that you had access to the Taghon books, but I'm surprised that it didn't have more on Helbig considering he became their commander later. I'd still like to know what unit he was actually with in September '39 as Kampfaufklärungs could be the Stab (Staff) aircraft at Gruppe or Geschwader level or a long-range reconnaissance Staffel. I think that there was one in LG 2 and independent Staffeln.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~On hold~~ I have ordered some more material that I hope allows me to address some of the comments addressed above. Please keep the review open until I have scanned the material. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Be aware that the maximum amount of time that ACRs are allowed to stay open is now 28 days + a day or so at the discretion of the closing coordinator (see the ACR instructions). Luckily you have some margin to play with here. -MBK₀₀₄ 05:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments my additional sources arrived and unfortunately do not give more insight into the questions posed above. May I ask the reviewers revisit the article? Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 00:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support yes, it is A class. Before you take it further, it should have loose screws tightened. ;) Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have just noticed something that seems strange. It says Helbig shot down a Polish reconnaissance aircraft. I thought Helbig was flying a He 111 as its pilot. How could he have shot down an aircraft? Was it one of his gunners? Which in that case it would not be 'his kill'. Did his unit not participate in the Battle of Belgium? LG 1 flew several missions against Belgian ports. Dapi89 (talk) 12:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was an observer during the Polish campaign, not the pilot MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Are you sure the lock canal was destroyed? Dapi89 (talk) 12:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's what the sources claim (Kurowski). MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have answered on your talk page. Dapi89 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What staffel/group did Helbig belong to? There were two I Gruppe's in LG 1 (I. (Z) and I. (K). LG 1. I(K) saw action over Belgium. Dapi89 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote:

After completing his training as an observer and aerial gunner in April 1937, he was posted with III. Gruppe (3rd Group) Kampfgeschwader (Bomber Wing) 152 "Hindenburg" in Schwerin. III./KG 152 "Hindenburg" became II. Group of Lehrgeschwader 1 (1st Demonstration Wing) on 1 November 1938

Is this not clear MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm affraid not. On the article it is listed he commanded I./LG 1. What does that mean? To me this means I Gruppe. Which first Group? There were two. I.(Kampf) and I. (Zerstorer). I am confused as to which unit he commanded. Dapi89 (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken! It should be I.(Kampf)/LG 1 now fixed MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments.

"On 23 January 1944 LG 1 sunk the HMS Janus with a Henschel Hs 293 glider bomb and again damages the Jervis severly for the loss of 11 aircraft." Tense switching, and please clarify the phrase about the loss of aircraft: were they lost with the Jervis, or shot down in the process of sinking the Jervis?
"He was taken prisoner of war (POW) by the Americans and was taken to the Sennelager POW camp from which he escaped on 9 June." Please clarify how he was taken prisoner: shot down, gave himself up, etc., and how and why he escaped instead of waiting to be released with the end of the war.
Can you do any elaborating on his life after the war? Sure it isn't as important, but one line on 30 years of life is quite a bit too little.

I understand the sourcing problems, but would really like to see improvement in the last comment. – Joe N 22:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A tad unfair. Mr B has given all the sources and information on his personal life. He can't give what he doesn't have. This article is more military-related so I think the contents is fine. In actual fact, if the one line is all MrB has, I would remove the reference to his horse riding and personal altogether and just focus on his birthplace and training. Afterall, people are going to be more interested in the war record. I think this should be granted A-Class.Dapi89 (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are tons of articles out there that cannot satisfy the completeness requirement of even GA-class for lack of available sources. I know this all too well; I've written a number of them. It would be really nice to be able to get them upgraded, but it will never happen unless I dig into archival information and then publish a book so as to satisfy WP:V. MisterBee has, IMO, hit the limits of the available information unless he can access issues of Jägerblatt or something similar. And private life aside there are a number of unanswered questions that I and a few others have posed above that have not been answered regarding his military career and activities. Enough so that I cannot support this as an A-class article in terms of completeness.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

comment on Helbig's personal life I am not in the position to address his personal life! The sources Berger, Kurowski and Schumann are the only sources I know of that portray Helbig as a person. Williamson is a plagiarism of the latter. Peter Taghon, author of the Lehrgeschwader 1 chronicles, mentions a Helbig collection that Helbig himself had started to put together with the intentions to publish his own book. This work has never been published (to my knowledge). Personally, I think that Schumann's article (Helbig is only one of many KC recipients in that book) is the historically most sound data point available. Kurowski basically tells the same story, filling many pages with anecdotal stuff that seems like fiction. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.