The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

IMP: This RfC has been modified subsequent to initial posting; all editors who commented are requested to re-read the RfC for clarity.

Having recently been involved in such an Arbcom case and incident, where one active Arbcom member voting in a case defended his right to discuss active ongoing cases and the participants in those cases on public forums outside Wikipedia, I am requesting the community for their views:

Should voting (non-recused) Arbcom members be restricted from discussing active cases and participants in such cases in public, non-WMF affiliated locations while the case is ongoing?

As repeated above, the scope of this request is very limited to the period that the case is active on the Arbcom page. And scope outside Wikipedia is only non-WMF affiliated locations, and not private communication between Arbs or private communication between Arbs and participants/stakeholders relevant to any particular case or Arbs/Functionaries/Clerks IRCs, as broad examples.

On advice from one of the arbitrators, it is clarified that this is intended to be a petition for amending the Arbitration Policy, under Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Ratification and amendment. Thanks, Lourdes 07:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Petition explanation

• Per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Ratification and amendment: "Proposed amendments may be submitted for ratification [...] having been requested by a petition signed by at least one hundred editors in good standing. Please note that as per policy, for this petition to be submitted for ratification, only number of supporting editors would be counted. This section has been added for clarity. Lourdes 17:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Support (Agree)

1. I agree with Ymblanter in the Opposes below that such a gag order is virtually impossible to enforce, but I nevertheless think that it would be useful to have such a restriction in effect, primarily because I believe that the vast majority of Arbitrators are honorable and would voluntarily hold themselves to it without need of a formal enforcement mechanism, but also because any violation of the restriction could then play a part in any subsequent de-Arbing or de-sysopping discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
2. Also I agree that this is not easy to enforce. However, this can result in situations where the trust in an Arbitrator can be seriously affected, or where the neutrality of the Arbitrator for the active case can be seriously questioned. As per BMK, any violation of such a restriction could play a part in subsequent de-Arbing, de-sysopping or (at a least) enforced recusal for an active case. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:22, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
3. It's a shame that Arbs should have to be told that this is expected behaviour from them to be honest. While it's not bullet-proof, at the very least it should remind the Arbs to be discreet and take their position seriously. Failure to comply should result in removal from the committee with immediate effect. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 07:47, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   Moving here from down in the Neutral section. I agree with Beyond My Ken above that the primary value of this restriction would be to make it as clear as possible that arbs are expected to hold themselves to it, and that if an arb does not do so, it will be easier to address that with a restriction like this in effect. ezlev^tlk
   _ctrbs 08:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC) Note: ezlev^tlk
   _ctrbs struck this comment at 17:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC) because this issue has more complexity than I previously realized, and I don't feel fully comfortable with unconditional support for the restriction in its current form.

4. Disappointing that the Arbcom needs reminding that such a fundamental requirement symbolising trust and responsibility is necessary. Arbs should not be discussing cases externally before, during and after. Failure to comply should result in immediate removal. However, I’m concerned that during their tenure Arbs must see a lot of confidential information, as they obviously can’t all be trusted, there needs to be some form of legal requirement to maintain confidentiality. Giano (talk) 09:26, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
   • I still support with the re-wording, and I’m still incredulous that this hasn’t been a mandatory requirement of an Arb for eternity. Giano (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
5. I assumed this was an unspoken rule, and kind of surprised we are having to discuss it. While a case is ACTIVE, it seems obvious they shouldn't discuss it on other public forums simply to maintain the trust in the community, and to keep any discussion or input on the case within the boundaries of enwp. Like the above, I recognize that it is hard to enforce, but there should be accountability where possible. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
6. I would prefer if it was changed to "should recuse from cases" where they have posted in other public fora before or during a case, and yes that would mean that arbs who had recused in a case were free to discuss it elsewhere. To address Giano's point, I would expect that Arbs have signed some sort of agreement with the WMF re confidential information that they have access to, and any Arb breaking that agreement on or off wiki would one hopes be sanctioned if caught. As for the oppose argument that this is closing a barn door after a recent event, regardless of what you think of that event, surely now is the best time to review these rules? ϢereSpielChequers 10:23, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
7. Support per the arguments of the supporters above. Johnbod (talk) 11:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
8. I support the principle, although I'm surprised that this has to be codifed - while I'm aware of recent events, I still would have thought that this should be simply a given. Part of the problem is how the cases are run. The two sides present their evidence and discuss the issues together. We expect arbs to discuss it among themselves, but most evidence for and against is presented openly and discussed openly, with rare (mostly privacy-related) exceptions. What we don't expect is for an arb to take it to another public forum and in effect get input there such that those involved on-wiki are unaware and cannot respond. When the case is over people can discuss it wherever they like, but while it is ongoing, in the interests of transperancy and fairness, the public input should be occuring where it can be seen and commented on by those invovled. - Bilby (talk) 12:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
9. Supporting reluctantly. "Reluctantly" because we already ask way too much of arbs, and because enforcement is tricky. But not discussing an active case or its participants off-wiki seems like a very very low bar. But this needs some clarification. Off-wiki also includes Wikipedia-l, Wikipedia IRC, etc. and I could envision some sort of really boring bit of information that could be helpful in those Wikipedia-adjacent spaces without betraying anyone's trust. Ultimately, context matters a lot. It took some digging to figure out what this was about. I still don't know all the context except to know that it concerns a Wikipedia criticism forum that's also a platform for aggrieved and/or banned editors to harass, insult, and at times dox Wikipedians. Apart from the most mundane clarification imaginable, I don't think there's any appropriate way of discussing participants in a case (open or closed) in that context. Perhaps the better way of dealing with this is with a direct question or request for commitment come election time. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:02, 2 April 2021 (UTC) Update: the proposal has been changed since I wrote this, so a little bit of what I said is outdated. Also, since several in the oppose camp seem to be under the impression that the only possible reason someone could support this is because of personal dislike for Beeblebrox or revenge for the RexxS decision, I'll just note that while I've seen the final decision, I didn't follow the case, don't have a strong opinion about it, and have never had an issue with either side here AFAIR. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:58, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
10. Per above, and with something like this it should be enough to ask. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC) Adding per some below, it's Arbcom's job all the time to interpret requests and policy reasonably, and there is no policy written that does not need interpretation, and no request that should be presumed to be in bad faith -- it also naturally seems rather unlikely that Arbcom will be too hard on Arbcom. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
11. Yes? I would have normally thought this was common sense. As to commentary re ARBPOL? I'm not sure I see why an RfC can't function as a petition with at least 100 signatures. GMG^talk 13:50, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
12. I agree that this would be difficult to enforce and would create a gray area regarding exactly when it should apply, but Wikipedia is built on policies which are ambiguous and difficult to enforce. (Ask any ten editors what WP:NOT or WP:NPOV actually mean, and you'll get ten different answers.) Yes, this is a reaction to a single incident, but the very fact that there appear to be current arbitrators who don't see this obvious serious breach of trust as an issue because it's not explicitly forbidden is a sign that there's a problem here which needs fixing. We have things like Editors who have multiple accounts for privacy reasons should consider notifying […] the arbitration committee as written Wikipedia policy which editors are reasonably going to feel they should follow; yes, Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee does have the "you should not disclose sensitive personal information in your communications with us" disclaimer buried in there, but the intent behind that was "we can't guarantee the mailing list archive won't be compromised", not "arbitrators reserve the right to talk about participants on other websites for shits and giggles". ‑ Iridescent 13:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    (responding to ping) I still support the revised wording, or any reasonable variation thereof; the important thing here isn't the exact wording but its spirit ("there are some circumstances when Arbcom discussions should take place in private, but there are never legitimate circumstances in which Arbcom discussions should take place in public anywhere other than on the on-wiki record"). With regards to some of the insinuations being made below, I didn't follow the RexxS case and have no idea if it was fair or not, have always got along fine with Beeblebrox, and would have supported this proposal whiatever circumstances it was proposed under. As per my comments here, "it's good that normal editors and admins engage with Wikipedia's critics, but Arbcom members need to avoid the potential appearance of impropriety and as such it's never appropriate for current arbs to be active on off-wiki criticism sites or to be discussing current cases publicly anywhere other than on-wiki" is something I've held for over 10 years. (This isn't singling out Wikipediocracy or a reheating of the whole WP:BADSITES issue, either; I'd consider it equally unacceptable for a current arb to be publicly tweeting about the participants in a current or recent Arb case.) ‑ Iridescent 16:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

13. TLDR: Strongest agree: There's a few opposes that appear primarily based on the notion the community cannot modify ArbCom proceedings - and I don't believe that's true. We elect the arbitrators, we give them the authority that they have, and thus they should make rule changes when a consensus to do so is found. On the subject of WP:NOTBURO, it obviously isn't overly bureaucratic when an arbitrator was just recently discussing arbitration matters off-wiki. Now I didn't see any evidence that this arbitrator said anything "early" or released information that was supposed to be non-public, but as was said by others - if that's what this arbitrator does on a public forum, how many people is he talking to, or being talked at by, in private? Not a bureaucracy applies to everything except arbitration - they are the sole bureaucratic nonsense group on the wiki which editors can go to when non-bureaucratic methods have failed to resolve problems. They're designed to be bureaucratic - and part of why this one arbitrator thought it would be okay to do this is likely because there's no rule against it. I'd like those opposing to state whether they have a problem with arbitrators discussing on off-wiki places (especially those which harass Wikipedia editors) or not - because from what I've read, it seems like many people support the idea that arbitrators shouldn't be doing that - but they aren't supporting making it a rule? There's evidence that this is a current problem, and that it's not going to go away (the arbitrator in question doubled down multiple times) simply by the arbitrator realizing what a piss-poor idea it is to be doing so. Discussion by arbitrators about active or recently closed cases or amendments or enforcement requests should take place only on-wiki, on a WMF run mailing list, or on another WMF run wiki when necessary (ex: meta for things that may need steward involvement). Arbitrators should not comment on outside platforms, including forums, news websites, journalist interviews, etc while a case is ongoing - this should be common sense and I'm appalled that anyone can seriously argue that this shouldn't be implemented - in real life, this would result in recusal and perhaps reprimand - so why is it allowed here? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
14. per Iridescent. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:19, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
15. How can a person engage in dispute resolution or impartial judgment if they're chitchatting about the case while it's going on, on a public, off-wiki Internet forum? No, an arbitrator shouldn't be hamming it up with banned editors on Wikipediocracy about ongoing parties and cases, or about the losing candidates in the last election, or who lost their bit, or who is about to, etc. If you want to explain your thinking about a case, do it on wiki. Imagine a judge, during a lunch break, goes across the street to the pub and starts talking to his buddies about the case he heard that morning. That would get any judge fired in any jurisdiction. We really shouldn't be tolerating it either. Oh, and Beebs isn't the only Arb (current or former) that does this. Levivich ^harass/_hound 14:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
16. To be honest, I'm surprised that this needs codifying. It's simply not a good look for members of the Committee to be doing so, and it calls their impartiality into question. The procedural concerns are unconvincing: surely once the number in the "support" column spills over a hundred and they are certified to be in good standing, this RfC would function as a petition as required by policy. Although I agree with WereSpielChequers, I can live with this version instead. It is not too much to ask for Committee members to be a bit more discreet when dealing with cases. If there are discussions to be made publicly for reasons of transparency, Wikipedia is the best place to make them. Sdrqaz (talk) 14:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    For what it's worth, I don't have a strong opinion on the RexxS case, nor am I angry at Beeblebrox. Sdrqaz (talk) 15:50, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    After reading the revised wording posted by Lourdes, my vote still stands. Sdrqaz (talk) 16:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

17. (Summoned by bot) Agree. Not a good practice. Coretheapple (talk) 15:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
18. To help ensure Arbcom's decision and process retain the support of the English Wikipedia community, this change should be made. I'm extremely surprised that this needs to be spelled out in our arbitration policy; I'd like to think that an active arb would have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be posting in off-wiki forums about active cases. Unfortunately, a current arb's recent actions are quite concerning and prove otherwise. (I haven't followed the RexxS case.) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
19. Support This isn't about an arb, can we get past that defensive position, this is to clarify about what is going to be the best for any given case, and for our editors facing an arbitration. I've seen some vicious attacks on outside forums which carried over into Wikipedia RfAs for example. The best and safest situation is for Arbs to work among themselves but not to deliberately include others. I assume discretion in arbitrators. Isn't that common sense? As well, there is often shame connected to arbitrations; we are a community that should protect its own members. Talking in other forums before or during an arbitration can be shaming. Why would any one us do that to anyone else? Incivility is often seen as a few swear words or abrasive language, but true incivility is much larger that that. When we damage one of our own, we damage the community as a whole. That is true incivility. (Note to self. Do not check watch list when trying to take a break.) Littleolive oil (talk) 16:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
20. per Iridescent. — Ched (talk) 16:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
21. Support in principle. I've no objection to group discussions between past and/or current functionaries, and I've no objection to discussions in a group that is both small and private, with an expectation of confidentiality, or at least a reasonable effort to maintain the dignity of the people you're talking about. But talking about editors "behind their backs", in a forum where anyone can read it if they happen to know to look there, is non-transparent and destructive to the community. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    To expand on this: It's not unusual for long-time editors to have annoyed some people. There are off-wiki attack pages about many of us (e.g., see what a now-banned editor wrote about Gordonofcartoon and me on his personal website). Sometimes we wear these attacks by outsiders as badges of pride. But when you're involved in an ArbCom case – regardless of whether you are the accused or the accuser or an uninvolved editor; regardless of whether you are innocent or guilty or somewhere in between – you do not deserve to have the editors who are officially charged with seeing that case through to a conclusion talking about you in public during the case. I understand that Arbs need a safe place to talk through what they're doing and what they're thinking. What I'd like the Arbs to understand is this: A public internet forum is not a safe place. If you're writing to entertain, then write it now and post your entertaining story when it's completely over. If you're writing to vent or to otherwise manage your emotions, then keep your writing on your own computer. And if you're writing because sharing details and personal comments about our community increases your social status in another community – then quit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

22. Strong Support This really should go without saying. I see absolutely no benefit to the encyclopedia in arbs discussing cases off wiki, and a lot of potential for harm. Paul August ☎ 19:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
23. Largely per Iridescent. ARBCOND applies, sure, but there's no harm in specifying what type of conduct is not acceptable. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
24. I'm not convinced that ArbCom actually needs to put this in writing, and I agree with the concerns that it would be hard to enforce in a fair manner. But I'm putting myself here in order to say that this is something that Arbs should be sensitive to, and they should not need anyone to tell them that. I don't care if an Arb simply participates at Wikipedia-criticism sites. The issue is that you shouldn't say things there that you would not say "to someone's face" on-wiki, and you should be silent about in-progress cases on which you are active. And, after that, I feel like saying "duh". I think it's appalling that this isn't self-evident. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
25. Support I understand various points that the oppose section editors have placed, and to be candid these have been very educating and provide deeper perspectives to the position of ArbCom members during an active case. The spirit of this proposal is to not just encourage on-wiki discussions by ArbCom members during an active case, but to also re-emphasise that being the highest trusted members at Wikipedia, participating in off-wiki discussions with individuals who may consider this case as purely entertainment value should be at least reconsidered. Coming to the matter of editors mentioning that this is a result of one ArbCom case, the answer is that each ArbCom case presents, principals and remedies that get enshrined for future reference – and each case also provides perspectives to editors like me where improvements perhaps may be explored, off-wiki commentary during case progress by active ArbCom members being one of them. And what is this proposal trying to encourage? Productive discussions with stakeholders to ensure a pragmatic outcome of an ArbCom case? Surely! Providing views, say, on participants' proposals to individuals on outside public forums, esp individuals with no connection to the case? – It would be good to think that over again. I have intended this proposal to be only a reasonable one, and hope this encourages ArbCom to at least suggest to its members to review their off-wiki interactions. I am thankful to the supporters here, who resonate much of what I espouse, but also many of the oppose editors, who support the proposal in spirit but perhaps would be happier with changed wording. The message is well taken by me; quid pro quo, I hope that in future ArbCom cases, the spirit of the message that this proposal intends to forward, would be equally well taken by respective ArbCom members. Please uphold the principals of protecting the dignity of the participants and the high standards of case discussions. Thank you, Lourdes 00:43, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
26. Support. I've had some concerns about what I've seen already at Wikipediocracy. While, yes, this will not be enforceable when it comes to Arbs using new, unique usernames at offsite venues, I agree with the first comment in this section that Arbs are generally honorable and will self-moderate their impulses. A rule need not be something that can be enforced with an iron fist to be useful. Otherwise most of our policies would have to be deleted.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:14, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose (Disagree)

1. I provided there an argument why I think it is an extremely bad idea for an arbitrator to discuss the running cases on outside fora, but I just do not see how this can be enforced.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
2. Not bureacuracy. It seems to me that in this particular case, it is the substance of the comments (and possibly the forum chosen in specific) that was the issue, not the mere existence of off-wiki comments. Arbitrators should be accountable for off-wiki comments they make under any profiles where the connection to their Wikipedia username is public. But preventing any comments as a rule seems like it would have a lot of unintended consequences. If an Arbcom case was getting media attention and an arb was contacted for comment, the rule makes it so that maybe all they can say is "No comment", but I don't see a disadvantage to them giving a generic answer "this is how Arbcom works... this is how arbs are elected... there's a misconception that we're staff but we're volunteers just like the people who write the encyclopedia".
   And then there's a whole host of situations that you can't really predict in advance where off-wiki comments could be desirable. Too broad a rule for what seems to be one instance of one problem about the content of a message (not its existence). I would maybe support something like "if an arb makes such a comment then they should link to it or copy it onto Wikipedia so vested parties will be aware of it if searching through the arbitrator's contributions". — Bilorv (talk) 09:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
3. The request for comment is stated in completely neutral terms and, on the face of it, is a reasonable proposal that should be considered. However, being raised at this time, by this editor, in the particular circumstances of the associated case and the nature of the comments attributed to the Arb. concerned, I cannot support this request. There is also an element of knee jerk about it. Leaky caldron (talk) 09:58, 2 April 2021 (UTC) ..and what about nominators at RfA, involved Admins at ANI/AN and 'Crats in a Crat Chat passing comment off-wiki? Leaky caldron (talk) 11:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC) In light of the timing, the changes to venue and intention of the RfC/petition, I rescind my previous comments. Taking account the comments of others I regret that I now see more of revenge / vindictiveness in this proposal. Leaky caldron (talk) 16:23, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
4. Invalid RfC. This is not a valid way to amend ARBPOL (in particular, the section that would be amended is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy § Conduct of arbitrators). No specific wording change is proposed anyway, and this RfC appears to be rashly drafted. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   More substantively: If you don't want arbs that do something, ask them about it at ACE, and don't vote for the ones that say they'll do what you don't want them to do. Excluding the mention about Lourdes, which was poor judgement and the arb in question has apologised, general offwiki commentary on cases doesn't compromise the Committee or its decision-making. A supporting editor stated I'd like those opposing to state whether they have a problem with arbitrators discussing on off-wiki places: as far as I can see only one arb does this anyway. That arbitrator made clear during their election they would participate on offwiki sites. They were elected anyway, implying that the broader community was okay with that. This is an attempt to create a rule in response to a single uncommon incident, which means it's more likely going to have negative effects than positives in the future.

   ARBPOL has only been amended two times in its history. The first was a rewrite and change in scope, the second was an amendment to allow the Committee to dismiss arbs. Both amendments came from the Committee, rather than from the community. That doesn't mean the community can't amend it. But if you look at the texts of those two changes, and compare them to this, one can guess why the Committee route tends to work better. No specific wording has been proposed, and the current vague question already has too many holes (per Bilorv etc), and as such should've gone to WP:VPI in the first instance even if this change were a good idea. Exactly what wording change would be submitted for ratification if this RfC did actually pass? It's unclear, indeed, and that's part of why this is a malformed RfC/amendment request. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

5. ... and Lourdes should WP:DROPTHESTICK. Also Per CrastinatingReader, if you want to change ARBPOL—you do—then follow ARBPOL. ——Serial 10:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
6. Per Bilorv (substantially) and ProcrastinatingReader (procedurally). No such user (talk) 11:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
7. This is likely unworkable, and is a general rule crafted in response to a single incident involving a single user. There's no pattern of behavior here that suggests that WP:ARBPOL is in need of amendment. There's a real cost to increasing bureaucracy with rules that either cannot be enforced or will be enforced selectively. Furthermore, the complained behavior already falls within WP:ARBCOND (1). Mackensen (talk) 11:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
8. Ignoring the rights and wrongs of this discussion venue, as long as there is no leaking of privileged information (which should be utterly obvious, and hasn't happened AFAICS), I don't see why it should be any different from the parties involved (or indeed anyone else) discussing the case. Black Kite (talk) 11:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
9. Per Serial Number 54129. WP:DROPTHESTICK definitely comes to mind. In general arbcom members are expected to exercise their good judgement and in the overwhelming majority of situations commenting about a pending arbitration case off-wiki is certainly inappropriate. However, creating a formal gag rule is still a bad idea. I can imagine some circumstances, involving some kind of a media inquiry or some significant amount of media publicity affecting a particular case, where a public comment of some kind may in fact be necessary. Arbcom members are elected for a limited term and the best way to hold them accountable is during the next arbcom elections. Nsk92 (talk) 11:38, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
10. I fail to see the point of this requirement. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 11:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
11. This appears to add too much bureaucracy for what it's worth, and I believe per the above comments (though can't say for sure) that this might be out of process for amending the arbitration policy. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 12:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    Hi John, this is very much in process for amending the Arbitration policy. As per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Ratification and amendment, "Proposed amendments may be submitted for ratification [...] having been requested by a petition signed by at least one hundred editors in good standing.". But of course, I appreciate your other comments. Thanks, Lourdes 13:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

12. Lest we establish a new body of policy defining what constitutes commenting outside Wikipedia. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 13:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
13. Would be better to codify this as practice ArbCom members should be expected to follow and use best judgement in, but as others have said, a formal rule sounds like would be heck to enforce (both when and where external public discussion happens, and the difference between a statement "Yes, we have a current case about X but I can't speak to that more" (reasonable expected behavior if asked about a case directly in public) and "Here's all the juicy inside details on case about X." --Masem (t) 13:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    This...would probably be more compelling if it wasn't essentially the job of ArbCom to police ArbCom. I'm not sure it's reasonable that they will so badly misinterpret the inention of the community in making such as statement. GMG^talk 13:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    Yes, WP:ARBCOND does make ArbCom as a whole the judge when the conduct of an Arb is at question, but I would assume that this would incorporate community input if the behavior is clearly in a public venue. Obviously if the behavior is something only on private channels, I don't expect the community to be privvy to that until a decision is made. --Masem (t) 16:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

14. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk/CCI guide} 14:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
15. Oppose. Should they be barred from sharing private information obtained during the course of the case? Yes. Should there be a gag order barring them from discussing the case entirely? No. I think it is in everyone's best interest if this whole situation was allowed to end. See also the Streisand effect. -- Calidum 14:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
16. This proposal is aimed at a single arbitrator, Beeblebrox. Lourdes is upset that Beeblebrox mentioned her real-life identity as a public figure on Wikipediocracy which was publicly revealed by Lourdes in some of her old edits (Note: Beeblebrox never mentioned this information onwiki) After Lourdes made a complaint about Beeblebrox bringing this up at the Arbitration Comittee talk page and about Beeblebrox discussing Arbcom cases offwiki Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Active_arbitrators_discussing_about_arbcom_cases,_and_RL_background_of_participants_in_external_forums as a result of the discussion, the edits were courtesy removed from the logs at her request, but the information had been previously declined to be oversighted, and the edits were public at the time Beeblebrox made his comments. Beeblebrox has apologised, and has stated that he will not bring it up offwiki again. Lourdes is also upset at Beeblebrox for his vote to desysop RexxS in the recent arbitration case. Taking this together, what's obvious is that Lourdes is filing this as a way to get back at Beeblebrox as part of the fallout surrounding RexxS's desysop. Nothing that Beeblebrox has said on Wikipediocracy warrants this kind of action, he did not leak or reveal anything about the arbitration commitee's internal deliberations. This is a clear attempt to forumshop after the Arbitration Committee talkpage discussion went nowhere.Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
17. Oppose As Bilorv said earlier, it's what they say, not whether they say something. I'd be fine in principle with a possible rule stating "Arbs shouldn't talk smack about someone who is currently in an arbitration process", but there needs to be a really compelling reason to try and dictate what a volunteer does outside of Wikipedia Scribolt (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    

    What I see in this RfC is a few members of the community lashing out at Arbcom in any way they can because they were upset by the outcome of a recent case. Let’s not forget that is what motivated this RfC. The case was handled with due process and it is closed. What we have now is a small handful of people attempting to rouse community support for a retaliatory sanction against one arb. Would the filer have initiated this RfC if the Arbcom case involved, say, banning an editor she didn’t like? Let’s please not waste any more of the community’s time with this. OneInStinque (talk) 14:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC) — OneInStinque (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Architect 134 (talk • contribs).

18. Why don't we just call it the "I'm mad at Beeblebrox" rule and be done with it. This is blatant WP:FORUMSHOP. You don't like something one person did, so now we have to have a sitewide discussion disguised as a policy proposal after two previous discussion did not lead to me being burned at the stake. I thought we had buried the hatchet here, but I guess not. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
19. How public is "public"? Would the clerks IRC channel be restricted even if it is Arbs, current clerks, and former clerks? What about Clerks-l which has Arbs, former Arbs, arb clerks and former clerks. What about the functionaries IRC channel or functionaries-l if an Arb has a question about why something was done a decade ago? Wikipedia is filled with mostly-private spaces that could be considered to be too public by some. Also, this is an extended exercise in lashing out at ArbCom for RexxS's desysop. Finally, this is not how you change ArbPol --In actu (Guerillero) ^{Parlez Moi} 15:23, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
20. While I can appreciate the point of view, and indeed agree that in many cases doing this would be a bad idea, it would also cover things which are not a bad idea. For example, on at least two occasions I can think remember I've been involved in discussions IRL with an arbitrator about an ongoing case, where they were getting different perspectives on the case than presented on-wiki (e.g. from editors who don't routinely participate in dispute resolution spaces and drama boards) and getting familiar with the background to areas of the project or topics they aren't familiar with. If you believe an arbitrator has acted inappropriately then there are existing process that should be followed, and indeed the proposer did this immediately before coming here. That the process didn't give you the outcome you wanted does not mean the process is broken. Thryduulf (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
21. I understand, and empathize with, the purpose behind this proposal. But the way I say it, this proposal conflates two different things: arbs making inappropriate comments about a case or its participants elsewhere on the Internet, and arbs making unobjectionable (and potentially very helpful and insightful) comments elsewhere on the Internet. Of course, not everyone will agree where that line is, but obviously inappropriate comments (outing, harassment, etc.) can be (and have been) dealt with under existing policies and procedures. Ultimately it is (or at least should be) up to those of us who vote on ArbCom candidates each December to decide how appropriate their commentary is. I don’t want a situation where, if I ask an arb off-site “why are considering banning/desysoping person X when you opposed banning/desysoping person Y, whose behavior was much worse?” they have to respond with “policy prohibits me from answering you until it’s decided.” I understand why people might disagree, but I think such a prohibition would do more harm than good, especially considering we can always vote out anyone who comments irresponsibly on or off Wikipedia. 28bytes (talk) 16:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
22. Unneeded instruction creep. Arbs should follow WP:ARBCOND, everywhere. Beyond that I think we can trust elected committee members to exercise good judgement in how they use off-wiki forums. – Joe (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
23. There might be a case to be made for some sort of limitation on arb com members discussing things outside of the wiki-verse, but this very flawed whatever-it-is is not it. Take the time to formulate the question correctly (so it doesn't need so much modification after going live) as well as taking a step back and getting input from folks not pissed off because of one particular case. Frankly, the look here is not good. I'd be happy to support something well thought out that is well formulated .. but not this created-in-anger and needs-continual-modification proposal. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:50, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
24. This proposal, if it was going to amend ARBPOL, should have gone through proper workshopping. I think it's current form, if read in plain language, could cause issues down the line. Arbs are already prohibited from sharing private information. I would encourage them to be particularly careful about marginal information, especially off-wiki. However, I think an absolute prohibition on any discussion (complete gag orders) could cause multiple issues in certain circumstances. I would advise against it. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
25. This proposal would not only be very hard to enforce, but it would also preclude times when certain information about certain cases involving users might involve information which would be impossible for most editors (revdel'd) or admins (suppressed) to see, an thus, effectively worthless to attempt discussion on-wiki. Regardless, it would be different if it was a guideline instead of a moratorium, something akin to "ARBCOM members are encouraged, but not required, to use on-wiki methods of discussing any active cases or sanctions in their official capacities." ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 19:52, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
26. Per Scribolt if anything. Acknowledging that this oppose is somewhat pointless since the RFC morphed into a petition; analogies about piss-ups and breweries spring to mind. Jack Frost (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
27. Urk. Yes, yes, 'petition'; I expect the horrible botchedness of this entire clusterfuck to prevent anyone from doing anything binding with an absolute minority of support anyway. This is almost a procedural oppose. Every single thing from the acceptance of Case/RexxS on was a horrible mistake on the part of all parties where no one comes out looking good and where many wonderful, respectable members of the Wikipedia community, who I otherwise hold in utmost esteem, tripped over themselves to be the worst version of who they are. I suspect Beeblebrox isn't going to make the same mistake twice. I hope no one else here does either, and I hope in a year we're all back together. Vaticidalprophet 22:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
28. Oppose per ProcrastinatingReader. Setting aside the ARBPOL concerns, this seems like pretty clear WP:FORUMSHOPPING, as far as I can tell. In either case, this RfC is fundamentally flawed. If Lourdes really wants to amend ARBPOL, then I strongly recommend workshopping the proposal first at a bare minimum and wording the proposal in a dispassionate manner. Yeah, I know. It's kind of hard to do when you were wronged by the arbitrator in question, but I would say it's an even stronger reason as to why this RfC should be withdrawn. This just reads like a WP:PRAM-esque airing of grievances. OhKayeSierra (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
29. Oppose Ridiculous, petty, and likely to be covered in some mainstream media article if y'all are foolish enough to implement it. Think of the optics if nothing else. →StaniStani 03:09, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Is this an application of Sub judice to Wikipedia? How would one enforce it? The arbiters discussing by phone or e-mail (on their list or Arbitration Wiki) would also run foul of this provision. I think that in some cases off-wiki discussion in a public forum would be inappropriate, while is other cases it might be beneficial to get unofficial remarks. In the case of really inappropriate posts, it would end up in a de-arbing (by whatever procedure that is possible), and this RfC would be moot. I think more nuance is required here: where comments are inappropriate, what type of comments are inappropriate, and what sort of sanction would apply to an arbiter who runs foul of this.--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 07:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   I'm remaining neutral on this for pretty much the same reason as Eostrix directly above, and will likely strike this and change my !vote if more detail is provided as they have described. ezlev.^talk 07:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC), struck by ezlev^tlk
   _ctrbs 08:03, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   Eostrix, Ezlev, updated to include your views, without changing much of the intent. The proposal includes discussion of active cases by voting Arbs on public forums, not any other kind of private communication between Arbs and other stakeholders. Thanks, Lourdes 07:45, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

2. I agree with the general idea that arbs should not gossip about cases they are arbitrating (either on or off wiki). But this needs a lot more thought before we begin to write rules.

   We also need to differentiate between cases where an Arb is acting IN THEIR ROLE AS AN ARBITRATOR, and cases where an Arb is acting AS AN INVOLVED PARTY in the case. Consider the scenario where an arb is in a dispute with non-arbs... the dispute goes to arbitration... and this arbitration ends up being discussed in outside venues. In this scenario, the involved arb is not acting as an arbitrator, but as a disputant. Are we saying that the disputants who are not arbs are free to comment on the case in outside venues (and potentially make accusations about the involved arb), but the disputant who happens to be an arb must remain silent (and so can defend himself/herself or present his/her side of the story)? That does not sound right.

   I could see having some sort of sanctionable “gag order” about active ArbCom cases... but surely it should apply to ANYONE involved in the case, whether they are arbs or not. Blueboar (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

3. Oppose as written. Being a member of the enwiki arbcom doesn't preclude an editor and a case participant from also being active on other WMF projects where they may have local reasons to discuss each other. Additionally, a committee member shouldn't be barred from participating in a global discussion of any sort on meta-wiki just becuase there is also a local case. The discussion section below suggests that this part could be changed during implementation, in which case I'm neutral at this time on discussions that could occur on public non-WMF venues. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   Also, what would the remedy/penalty for this be (would someone need to drag the committee member to arbcom)? Would recused committee members be constrained? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

   Moved out of oppose after the last rewrite. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

4. Arbs should certainly be discouraged from discussing active cases and participants, but I don't think they need to be strictly forbidden. I can imagine a few scenarios where this may be necessary; and trying to enforce a prohibition seems problematic at best. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:48, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
5. ArbCom, please get your house in order; loose lips sink ships. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

(Non-administrator comment) Just to be clear, when you say outside public forums, you're referring to off-Wikipedia discussion boards, and off other Wikipedia channels like Discord and IRC? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Corrected. Thanks, Lourdes 06:48, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Lourdes: Regarding Eostrix's objection in the "Neutral" section, I did not interpret your proposal to mean to cover Arbitrators talking to each other privately by any means they choose. That would mean their internal discussions, whether by phone, e-mail, mailing list, or carrier pigeon, would not be affected. Is that how you meant the proposal? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I see you've updated. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks BmK. As updated above, the proposal includes discussion of active cases by voting Arbs on external public forums, not any other kind of private communication between Arbs and other stakeholders. Thanks, Lourdes 07:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I am sad that such a thing needs to be discussed. I should be clear without restrictions that talking about a case - which implies talking about living persons - outside that case should be handled with utmost care and caution, voluntarily. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I'm having a little trouble with the formatting here. Does Support mean that one supports the concept that arbs should not use outside public forums, or does it mean that one supports the arbs ability to do so? With the question asked being Should Arbcom members be restricted from discussing active cases and participants on public forums outside Wikipedia (that is, till the case is open)?, I just don't understand how the answers can be Support, Oppose, and Neutral. SQL^{Query me!} 08:17, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Hi SQL. Support means agree with restricting Arbs. Oppose means disagree with restricting arbs. I have added these two words for the benefit of readers. Thanks for pointing it out. Lourdes 08:22, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• "that is, till the case is open" why is that to be the rule? Obviously this is targeted at me specifically, so I feel like I must ask why this, exactly,is how I am to be restricted? Beeblebrox (talk) 08:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• In your case User:Beeblebrox! you should be restricted by not being allowed access to anything remotely confidential. You clearly have not the slightest idea of the behaviour expected of an Arb. Giano (talk) 09:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I read this is a typo that should be "until the case is closed". Is it not? — Bilorv (talk) 09:39, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I boldly fixed that, as it seems obvious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, both. Lourdes 10:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• There are relevant off-wikipedia forums that it is beneficial for them to be able to discuss (IRC and Discord come to mind). There may well be forums that it is not advisable, but I'm not sure cast-iron rules are wise here. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • To clarify, reading the details a bit more carefully, I realise I should clarify that this was meant for things like case requests or declined cases. If it's a private case then there's only limited groups they should be talking to, and any truly public forum wouldn't be suitable. There are some edge issues, like discussing the outcomes, mixed cases, information that is available publicly, despite the case being private etc etc etc Nosebagbear (talk) 09:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• Using the word 'Wikipedia' is odd. So it's OK for a discussion to take place on the French Wikipedia, say, but not Wikidata or Commons? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Hi Mike, would you suggest any alternative that would capture the point better? The question I have put is purely to assess the broad sense of the community regarding off-site discussions of active cases by voting Arbitrators. One could of course scrutinise each word, but I hope the broad idea of the RfC is clear. Thanks, Lourdes 10:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  "The English Wikipedia" would mean only here, on this project. Do you intend to restrict only committee members from referring to an active case in the scope of something larger like a global discussion on meta-wiki? Are you only trying to prevent discussion out side of all public WMF projects? — xaosflux ^Talk 11:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yes Xao. Lourdes 11:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Lourdes: I can't tell which of my two questions you are responding to. What (if any) non-private venues outside of the English Wikipedia are you wanting to exempt? Some examples: Nowhere; the Meta-Wiki; other shared WMF projects (Commons, Wikidata); other WMF projects (the French Wikitionary). — xaosflux ^Talk 13:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry for being short on the previous response. To be candid, if this passes, I would leave it to the ArbCom's judgement to decide on this. They understand what is best for them, and in what form this should/should not be ratified. Lourdes 14:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• • @Lourdes: I would suggest 'Wikimedia' plus one of 'projects', 'movement', 'Foundation websites', etc. depending on what exactly you are intending. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 14:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
    • You're right. I'm not sure whether now, after the participation of many editors, it would be appropriate to change the wording to, say, Wikimedia projects (given that some others may have voted considering the current wording). Lourdes 14:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I think it would be good to change it, but others may well disagree. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I'm guessing you don't want my advice since you keep trying to convince everyone I'm horrible, but years ago I wrote this essay which details what you should do before and during a policy proposal. Rule number one is to make sure you know what it is you are proposing before going live with the proposal. How to approach issues carefully and considering the details and repercussions is how good policy gets made. Rushing in when you're mad is not. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
        • For someone who just voted to desysop an admin who cared about accessibility, you're certainly trying your hardest to violate WP:LISTGAP. Furthermore, your attacks on the editor who proposed this are not acceptable - and quite frankly it's appalling that you think it appropriate to come cast aspersions against this editor simply for some minor wording problems that were quickly improved by community discussion (below) to capture the intended meaning. You've been digging your hole deeper ever since you were called out for your off-wiki activity - and you're now stooping as low as to make veiled attacks against other editors simply for disagreeing with them. This is certainly conduct unbecoming of an arbitrator - while I'm not suggesting you need to agree, you definitely shouldn't be showing up in discussions that started because of your poor behavior and behaving poorly in those discussions by attacking the people who proposed them. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• This is a weird RfC. 1) why is an RfC happening on the AN? 2) this does not seem like a valid way to amend ARBPOL, in particular WP:ARBCOND, and it seems inappropriate to try to impose limitations on arbitrators in a backdoor fashion. So I'm not sure the outcome of this RfC is valid anyway (unless this is the petition signed by at least one hundred editors in good standing part?). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I just wish it to be known that I am not aware of whatever situation prompted this RfC, so my response is not about any specific circumstance, but about the RfC per se. In answer to other objections, the RfC seems to me to be legitimate, and I don't know why an RfC can't be held at WP:AN -- they're certainly held in much less-traveled areas of Wikipedia and held to be enforceable when closed, and it's advertised on WP:CENT, which it good. If the wording is currently a bit vague, this can be fixed if the RfC receives sufficient support. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Just in case anyone reading this doesn't realize, I am an arbitrator - I want to get that disclosure out of the way up top. I had no idea until I reached the discussion that this was intended to be a petition to amend ARBPOL. I thought it was instead an advisory RfC. Since this is intended to be a petition that should be made clear - for instance the opposes don't mean anything. I've opposed ARBPOL amendment petitions before so that's fine but everyone should be clear what is going on here and that is, I feel, very much not the case. I would ask that the wording that this is a petition to amend ARBPOL be made clearer and the people who've participated before this clarification should be told so they may change their participation if they wish. I also suggest the wording of the CENT notification be changed. Second, as worded and read at its most literal it will prevent Arbitrators from using the listserv or ArbWiki for the case. It would prevent drafting arbs from using voice chat with each other when discussing the draft decision or prevent them from conferring with each other via email over a request made to, for example, have an extended word limit. Read slightly less literally it would still prevent arbs from telling clerks to do something related to a case on IRC. All of these limitations would severly impair the ability of the committee to work and seem like unintended consequences from the way this was worded. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:47, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Barkeep49, Petitioning Arbcom is advising Arbcom. And since by policy: "Wikipedia's policy and guideline pages describe its principles and agreed-upon best practices. Policies are standards all users should normally follow, and guidelines are generally meant to be best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense." This is often shorthanded to respect the 'sprit of policy'. So, Arbcom members are already expected to be able to not be absurdist literalists, and avoid being zealous infraction Jerverts. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  opening a petition to revise arbpol, which is what is desired here, has a very different impact than advising on community sentiment. And while I think the community elects Arbs who are not Javerts, intent gets washed away with time while the plain language remains with plenty of editors who are perpetually wary of Arbcom and their actions. I think critics and watchdogs have value but it would still be nice to avoid a situation where they rely on the plain language of a policy while others are like "no you have to look at intent." Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Barkeep49, What's the worst that could happen? Let's assume this gets in word for word (and that the consensus gathering is it has to be exactly these words), even long before it is ever applied, if the committee wants to tweek, they still have ways to tweek it. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  For the first time in history the community amendment option is successfully exercised at ArbPol and you think there would be tolerance for ArbCom putting forward tweaks? I don't think that's the case and indeed think it would be easier to try and get reasonable changes made now - as has happened - rather than after the fact. To me this whole process has worked how it should - an idea was put forth, concerns were raised not on the intent of the idea but the wording, the idea was adjusted in light of those concerns, and now the idea can continue to be considered for what it philosophically is trying to do. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  The proposition has been stated as a question, so it could never go in word for word into policy. And until the close is done, we don't know what the close will say about wording. In consensus, the consensus is not found in the proposition alone, it's found in the discussion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest a simple change in wording that captures the original meaning in my opinion: Should Arbcom members be restricted from discussing active cases and participants in such cases in public, non-WMF affiliated locations while the case is ongoing? - this allows for any WMF-affiliated location to be used (be it meta, a different WMF wiki, list-serv, etc) - and it also allows for the arbitrators to determine in their own best judgement, when private communication is necessary, where such may take place - i.e. it doesn't restrict their private communications amongst each other or between them and parties to cases. I think this is what the original question was designed to ask... but maybe I'm just confused. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I am in agreement with Berchanhimez over the wording change. Let me ping xaosflux and Mike Peel on their views. Barkeep49, would this wording p roposed by Bechanhimez satisfy your working requirements? Please advise. Also, with respect to the petition, I'll amend the top and ping all participants, but it would be good to get your comments on the wording before I do that. Thanks, Lourdes 15:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Yes I think that revised wording would alleviate my concerns about the ability of the committee to operate and manage cases as is done now (and doesn't appear to be what is intended to be restricted). Barkeep49 (talk) 15:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I put more in a contingent oppose above. In general, I don't think volunteers that are members of the enwiki arbcom should be saddled with WMF-wide interaction discussion bans on other projects with everyone that is a "participant" in a case here. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

My interpretation of "discussing... participants in such cases" implies discussing the case or related facts with them - not simply interacting with them as a whole - and again, my proposal only applies "off-wiki" completely - thus you don't have a WMF-wide interaction ban with them, you simply have a "don't comment on them at all off wiki while the case is in progress" ban - which should be common sense. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Or else! Assuming this was passed, what would be the expected remedy/penalty for violations? — xaosflux ^Talk 15:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  WP:DR. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:23, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Alanscottwalker: yup, that's gonna be fun! — xaosflux ^Talk 15:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  People are already aware that disagreements are sometimes, and sometimes often, not fun. And in the Arbcom area, in particular, it's hard to think of anything most anyone thinks is fun, or fun! -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  • So I assume the proposed changed wording is okay with you Xaosflux? To your second query, what is the remedy if an ArbCom member does not follow current policy on expected conduct? Lourdes 15:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  • @Lourdes: I don't love it, but it is a bit better. Specifically, I think this is overly broad to include any "participant" (as opposed to just "parties"), but if that is the issue to be decided on then so be it. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Act In Haste, Repent At Leisure springs to mind. The RfC was created, modified, relocated and is now being amended by a random group of editors with or without axes to grind. It's being changed from an RfC to a petition now, is it? Wow, what a shambolic way to make decisions. Leaky caldron (talk) 15:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I thought I had seen just about everything on Wikipedia, but this really takes the biscuit. We have an arbitrator who posts about a case on a trolling forum because it is not expressly forbidden and another who insists that there is nothing wrong with that. Don't these people have the slightest bit of common sense that would tell them that there is something wrong with that? I'm not pretending to know what should be done about this matter, but I do know that we now have at least two members of the arbitration committee who nobody can trust to behave appropriately in dealing with cases. I hope other more sensible members of that committee will have the guts to come off the fence and say the obvious. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I spent ages, with several edit conflicts, fixing this up but was undone by Hemiauchenia with an edit summary expecting me to fix things. No, I do not have more time than you, and you shouldn't expect so. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Phil Bridger am I the second arb you refer to in this comment? Because I very much have not insisted that there's nothing wrong with it. I have instead tried to make points about how the intent of this idea could be expressed without hindering the committee and how it can be made clear, under policy, what is happening. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  No, you are not who I was referring to. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• A comment directed at no one individual but those opposing as a whole - please seriously reconsider whether you are opposing because of how and by whom this was put forth - or whether you're opposing because you actually think it should be acceptable for this sort of behavior to can occur. I've seen people who oppose such a rule (both on this page and elsewhere) saying that they oppose this because it is "retaliatory" - to which I say that if this is simply when this was recognized, then it doesn't matter. Furthermore, even if the exact wording is not something you agree with, remember that this is just a petition for Arbitrators to change their own policy - it is not set in stone, and wording can be discussed - the arbitrators have final say on their policy anyway, so I'm sure they'll do their best to make sure that it captures the community's guidance while not being ambiguous or restrictive outside of reason. Put simply, please rethink whether you actually are okay with this behavior or not - because many opposes say "this shouldn't be necessary to prevent this", yet apparently it is as multiple arbitrators have either violated this or condoned the same. If that's not proof a rule is necessary to codify what should be common sense, I'm not sure what would be. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 15:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Berchanhimez: A comment directed at no one individual but those opposing as a whole - please seriously reconsider whether you are opposing because of how and by whom this was put forth - or whether you're opposing because you actually think it should be acceptable for this sort of behavior to can occur. I am not opposing because of who proposed it, I am not opposing because of how it was proposed (although that is far from ideal), but I am also not opposing because I think the type of behaviour that Lourdes has alleged Beeblebrox engaged in (and which Beeblebrox has denied engaging in - I haven't looked closely enough to have my own opinion about what happened) is acceptable. I am opposing because it is so poorly worded that it would prohibit an awful lot more than just that sort of behaviour, much of which is, in at least some cases, a Good Thing. Not only would it throw out the baby with the bathwater, it would also throw out the bath and remove the discretion of arbitrators to decide whether the baby, bath and/or bathwater actually should be disposed of in any given situation. Furthermore there are already rules that prohibit arbitrators engaging in the sort of behaviour this proposal is intended to prohibit. Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  My comment was directed at people who opposed because of "poor wording" but appeared to support the idea as a whole. It was not directed at any one oppose vote, but at a trend I identified in the oppose votes, where many of them are based solely on specific wording while still agreeing that it's not okay. I think a new RFC/petition may be necessary yes, due to this, but I figured I'd mention this as a comment. I agree with you that there are already rules prohibiting this - but then why are arbitrators not initiating proceedings against the arbitrator who's already violated this? Either they're too unwilling to investigate one of their own (which is another issue), or maybe (AGFing here) they simply don't realize the community considers this behavior unacceptable. In the second case, this proposal here, where even about half the opposes say "yeah, this shouldn't be okay, but this proposal is unnecessary" - which leads to about a 70-75% community consensus behind the idea that it's not okay (including supports) - this should show them that they need to act on it as a violation of the rules they already have in place. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:43, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Phil Bridger: (and others) is the lack of rules the problem here? Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Conduct_of_arbitrators lays out expectations for committee member behavior already (...Act with integrity and good faith at all times..., if there is a serious question about such behavior that the current process incapable of dealing with it? — xaosflux ^Talk 15:38, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  I do not think that it's the lack of rules that is the problem, but a complete lack of moral compass amongst certain people [in a certain person] who have [has] been elected to pass judgment on us. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  There is a serious question about such behavior and the current process' ability to deal with it - the current process of arbitrators being unilaterally enabled to decide what is "with integrity and good faith" has obviously failed, since even among oppose !votes many of them express that the act is unacceptable, but this proposal doesn't float their boat. From my reading, at least 70% of people commenting are against arbitrators participating in off-wiki discussion of current cases that they haven't recused from - with varying levels of exception. Not to mention that the arbitrator who spawned all this commented here with basically a this would be hard to enforce, so don't even make it a rule (so I can keep violating the unwritten rule). Not a single arbitrator has proposed a motion, admonishment, or removal of that arbitrator from the committee. As such, it's clear that ArbCom itself is incapable of interpreting "integrity and good faith" as the community wishes them to - because it's clear already that while this exact proposal/wording isn't fully supported, that a decent majority believes that arbitrators should generally not be commenting on active cases off-wiki. So yes, until/unless ArbCom decides to "police its own" and provides public indication they are doing so, this is necessary. Note that I don't personally care what happened in the RexxS case, as that's a separate issue - but the arbitrator(s) actions during and after that case have brought this issue to light. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:48, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Berchanhimez: has anyone started WP:DR (even by skipping all the way to the end) against a committee member that they think has violated arbcom policy? — xaosflux ^Talk 18:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Xaosflux, the community cannot remove arbitrators, only the arbitrators can. Multiple people have attempted to engage the arbitrator in question - he has doubled down on "I did nothing wrong" and even ventured into violations of WP:NPA against those who are attempting to tell him he is in the wrong. I am curious what steps other than explicitly requesting ArbCom make this explicitly clear in their policy you think have been skipped? Other noticeboards cannot do anything to remove an arbitrator from their position. To be quite blunt, if ArbCom would step up and initiate a motion to remove or suspend the arbitrator in question, this would be moot for now. That is, until this or another arbitrator thinks it's "acting with integrity" to participate in troll/harassment sites and to discuss active cases they are participating in. That's not integrity in anyone's definition. Sure it's hard to police, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what is obvious and blatant. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Berchanhimez: community members should be able to initiate an arbitration case against an arbitrator as a party to force the issue. If it is a bona fide complaint and the committee declines the case, it should be with a reason why it can actually be handled elsewhere. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:07, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Sure, they can do such, but the Committee should also, per their own procedures, be doing this themselves. I suspect that nobody wants to file an arbitration case if the committee should (and might) decide to take action on their own prerogative. Furthermore, this proposal ensures that, even if a case is necessary this time, the arbitrators have encoded in their policies that this sort of behavior is not "integrity and good faith", thus they will never again have to wait for a case to be brought. If you're seriously suggesting that an arbitrator should get away with gross violations of integrity and neutrality by participating in an active case while discussing it with a forum including banned editors - just because nobody has the balls to file an arbitration case against a sitting arbitrator, then that's crazy imo. Nobody wants to have to go through a case - it is a last resort - and I think trying to clarify the arbitration policy (or convince them to take action under current policy) is a last step prior to arbitration itself. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​This is a hidden ping to previously commenting editors to inform each one of them that post their comment on this RfC, the original wordings have undergone a change. Importantly, the previously placed question – "Should Arbcom members be restricted from discussing active cases and participants on public forums outside Wikipedia (that is, till the case is closed)?" – has undergone a change. Requesting your eyes on the top once again for your review. Thank you for your consideration. Lourdes 15:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@Lourdes: When you change existing wording like that, it may be somewhat more clear if you srike the previous text and underline the new text. GMG^talk 16:02, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

You're right GMG. The issue is, new editors may just get confused seeing significant strikes. I have added the previous query to the hidden ping statement. Apologies for this quick-fix. Lourdes 16:18, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

convenience break

• I'd like to present a hypothetical scenario for consideration. Let us assume this already passed, and also that I had not recused from the current case request. Now let's say I were to post on one of the Reddit forums dedicated to Wikipedia the following "I was surprised at the sudden accusations of racism". No private info, no personal attacks, just my honest reaction to a weird aspect of a case. By the wording of this rule, I would have broken policy by saying that, but only because I said it where I said it, not because there is anything else at all wrong with it. Is that really something we want to start doing? Who is going to police every single off-wiki forum to make sure no arbs are commenting in any of them in a manner that goes against this gag order? What are the penalties if the gag order is breached? Beeblebrox (talk) 16:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Geez, so because you feel it’d be hard to enforce it shouldn’t be a policy? That’s the complete opposite of acting if integrity - you basically just said “well it’d be difficult to monitor so I can do it!” Absurd. You really need to step back and see that even about half of the opposes here say this is inappropriate behavior for an arbitrator - making it around 70-80% of the community as a whole. Please stop digging and attacking others for attempting to codify what should be common sense - but apparently not your common sense, just everyone else’s. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 16:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    "attempting to codify what should be common sense" this is why WP:BURO exists. Beeblebrox is asking on-point questions because this is the sort of crap that will happen if this is codified. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:48, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  • OMG I expect arbs to know what discretion is without having the community explain it to them. Ideally arbs who have trouble understanding what discretion is would just resign, and ideally other arbs would encourage them to do so. I would have stayed out of this until I saw that you are still talking about this RFC on WO. It's like a bad addiction to gossip. Stop doing this ffs. Levivich ^harass/_hound 16:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
    • My point is that this is a half-baked, dangerous proposal with significant risk of needless drama, for little benefit. I also wasn't aware that the gag order has now been expanded (in your mind at least) to include policy proposals. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:47, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
      • That you're referring to the concept of exercising some basic discretion as a "gag order"... I'm embarrassed that I voted for you. Levivich ^harass/_hound 18:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    @Levivich: the point is that this proposal would remove a lot of discretion arbs currently have. Whether it was or was exercised correctly in any given instance is not relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 18:22, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    • Exactly. Look, I've heard what people have said. I told Lourdes that I understood her concern and would not make further comments of that nature. So I was a little surprised to see this after that. I am open to criticism, I'm very aware I am not a perfect person. And, should I decide to run again, if this incident tanks my candidacy, so be it. That's fair. But this .... I don't think anyone even knows what this even is at this point, but it was clearly not well thought out before being proposed. Knee-jerk rule making is particularly prone to unintended consequences. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I hope it doesn't get so far that we have to find out. The current gig is a joke: started off at AN, now at VPP; started off as an RfC and is now a petition (or is it the other way round?!); started off saying one thing, now says another. Etc. And that's before getting into the weeds of the RexxS context. Still, at least the planning matches the execution. ——Serial 16:37, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I sort of asked this in my !vote above... but it is worth asking again: Why is this focused purely on Arbitrators? Why not simply say that ANYONE involved in an ongoing ArbCom case (whether they be arbs, disputants, involved editors, etc) should not discuss it outside of approved channels? Blueboar (talk) 18:02, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Blueboar, I think that the distinction is primarily about the power imbalance. You wouldn't want a real-world judge live-tweeting about witnesses that appear in a courtroom, or a professional arbitrator gossiping about a divorcing couple on a social media site. That kind of behavior doesn't show respect for either the participants or the process. Editors don't want ArbCom members to treat them disrespectfully when they feel like they're involved in a high-stakes, emotionally charged ArbCom case, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:07, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

  I would not want ANYONE involved in an active court case live tweeting about it. Not the judge, not the disputants, not the lawyers... no one. Blueboar (talk) 02:30, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• I also asked about this in my Oppose vote (≠3). What about any involved functionary participating in any formal setting, RfA, 'Crat Chat, AN/ANI? They also contribute at WO. Leaky caldron (talk) 18:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • A more general WP:DECORUM guideline would make more sense than this narrowly-tailored change, which feels half like a vote to admonish Beeblebrox. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    Half? Vaticidalprophet 22:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Ah, I see that Lourdes has "clarified" things for us; this is now both an RfC (requiring a ~two-thirds majority in favour) and a petition (requiring a 100 supports and ignoring opposes). I think we're through the looking glass, people... ——Serial 18:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• On reflection, no, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as Lourdes suggests (perhaps unsurprisingly, as they only highlighted one sentence). It does seem odd, doesn't it, at first glance, that arb com—of all people on the English Wikipedia!—would renounce WP:CONSENSUS in favour of brown numbers, and a careful read of ARBPOL supports this interpretation. The first paragraph states: this policy will undergo formal ratification through a community referendum and will enter into force once it receives majority support, with at least one hundred editors voting in favour of adopting it(my emph); that makes it clear that the 100 supports must be a majority, not 100 supports regardless of total !vote. Regarding proceedings such as this, it is clear that Amendments to this policy require an identical ratification process. Then comes the line that Lourdes quotes above; but it is clearly intended to be read as continuing the procedure as laid out originally.
  TL;DR: So yeah, consensus still rulez OK, people. ——Serial 18:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  Except this is the first part of a two part process. This is attempting to see if 100 users request the change. Once that happens we have a ratification vote where there is a simple majority approval with at least 100 editors in support. So in that second step opposes would matter but for now we're just seeing if it can get 100 signatures. So the people opposing here are doing so more under "moral oppose" grounds than to actually haven effect. Personally I think the amendment process needs some cleanup - for instance I think there should be time limits so we don't get a Twenty-seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution situation but have also been of the opinion that it can wait until the next time ARBPOL needs to be amended for something else. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• I'm seriously, honestly trying to parse this out. As worded, an active arb could go over to say, Meta, and post about an ongoing case, say some general remark like "this case is not going the way I thought it would." That's allowed, because it's a WMF site. If that same arb were to go make that exact same comment on reddit, that's not allowed, because it is not a WMF site. If the arb in question is recused for any reason, they can go ahead and say the same comment anywhere they like. I'd honestly like to know why an anodyne comment like that is somehow harmful when posted in one place, but not in another, harmful when active, but not when recused. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  That's interesting. You're "seriously, honestly trying to parse this out" yet you've spent the last few days attacking anyone who is trying to explain it. I'm glad you've finally came to the realization that you should be listening and discussing instead of defending. That being said, it's simple: appearances. Wikipedia editors can be expected to have a relatively decent knowledge of the fact that there may be other projects other than the English Wikipedia, and discussing pertinent information to a case on another WMF project is in the spirit of cross-collaboration - for example, cases which have evidence of cross-wiki abuse or would require steward input (removal of bureaucrat, for example). It's not that the comment itself becomes harmful if posted off-wiki, but Wikipedia editors shouldn't have to look off-wiki to find an arbitrator's comments on a case. You signed up to be an arbitrator to serve the community - and part of that is appearing impartial and with "integrity and good faith". If you have opinions that you wish to make off wiki and you don't even let people know on wiki that you're making those comments, it appears very highly that you're either trying to hide something, or have conversations that are not permissible on wiki for whatever reason. I didn't say you are doing either of those, but that is exactly what it appears like. Let's ask you this - point blank - why did you post each post at that forum that you did, instead of holding discussion onwiki? If the answer is because the person you responded to was banned, you shouldn't be discussing your opinions on cases with banned users off wiki and if you have to ask "why not", you shouldn't be an arbitrator. If the answer is because "it was easier", well tough, tell them to come on wiki to discuss the active case with you in the interest of full transparency and record keeping. You have an extra burden to bear as an arbitrator active on a case - you are the judge of someone - and doing things like this seriously calls into question your "integrity and good faith" - even if you don't discuss any private information or remedies specifically. I count a couple dozen users who have at this point said this should be common sense - so I'm sorry, but if you don't get it at this point maybe it's time to step back and reconsider whether you understand what being an arbitrator entails - since you seem to forget that you should be the pinnacle of integrity and transparency if at all possible - which posting off-wiki doesn't provide. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• Actually, Serial Number 54129, I think it now makes even less sense. Some of Lourdes' comments (and others') (eg [1][2]) seem to imply some editors think this is going to the Committee who will then draft up a wording and propose it for ratification, but surely that's not what this is? Despite the edits to this proposal, it still feels like the proponents don't really know exactly what they're asking for.
  Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy § Ratification and amendment appears to describe the process for amending the policy. I imagine the community process works something like this: rather than the ArbCom motion method, a specific change (like this) is proposed and at least 100 editors must support that change. That change is then submitted for community (not ArbCom) ratification, which must receive at least 100 supports and a simple majority of supports. But since there's no actual change proposed here, how exactly are we meant to ratify a question? (unless Lourdes expects the RfC closer to write up the text for the change?) And then there's the issues of clarifying niche cases, and deciding what enforcement should be expected (should removal of arbs be invoked for breaches). It doesn't seem like everyone is on the same page with regards to the details here. For amending something as 'professional' and well documented as ArbCom, this whole section has devolved into a bit of a clusterfuck. I'd be surprised if anything productive comes from it, and even if it does it would be far more productive (and time efficient) to withdraw and workshop up a clearer change which addresses the questions/concerns. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• After 17 years editing here, I’m amazed that this debate is even necessary, I always assumed this was a rule. Arbs, their clerks or anyone connected to them should not be discussing any case before, during or after anywhere but on Wikipedia. Any other site (even bona fide associated projects and sites) should be completely off limits for such gossip because once such subjects leave Wikipedia, scurrilous gossip is all it is, and it benefits no one. To be respected and for the Arbitration system to work, Arbs have to be like Caesar’s wife, if that’s too much of a struggle for them, then they need reminding the position is voluntary. Giano (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• As I mentioned in the earlier discussion on this topic: The default assumption is that editors can fully participate in the English Wikipedia community solely through engagement on this website. I think all editors need to be wary of contributing on other venues, including mailing lists, IRC channels, and other websites (including other Wikimedia Foundation websites), in a manner that affects this default assumption. If significant insight, influence, discussion, or other advantages can only be gained by participating elsewhere, I feel this increases the demand on time and access being requested of the community. I don't know if this needs to be written in policy, but I personally think it would be better to avoid changing the baseline for participation. isaacl (talk) 20:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't think excessively pushing for a code of silence helps the project or contributors. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

    In my previous comments, I said that in real life, people discuss things in all sorts of places, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nonetheless, I feel editors should be aware of the potential effect of increasing the number of required venues for engagement in order to be full participants in English Wikipedia. isaacl (talk) 21:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• The general principle that has been espoused - arbitrators should act with professionalism and discretion - is critical but the current proposal is flawed in many ways that are certain to make it unsuccessful. If this is revisited in the future, I strongly recommend focusing not on the venue(s) in which we expect arbitrators to be able to discuss active cases but a broader principle of limiting discussions to venues, participants, and topics that are necessary and appropriate for the respectful advancement of the case. Or something along those lines that permit arbitrators to exercise discretion but make clear the parameters and principles that should be involved in their decision. We are all volunteers here but that does not mean we should expect or welcome unprofessional behavior, especially from those in positions of heightened trust and authority. ElKevbo (talk) 22:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• Arbitrators must be cautious and discreet in discussing any arbitration business and especially so when pending matters are involved. If anyone thinks a reminder of this precept would be helpful, this discussion (which the Committee members are aware of) has provided it. A formal policy amendment is not necessary. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:44, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, your statement is more than enough for me. We can close this RfC/policy amendment here. Thank you for this. Warmly, Lourdes 04:58, 3 April 2021 (UTC)