![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 705 | ← | Archive 708 | Archive 709 | Archive 710 | Archive 711 | Archive 712 | → | Archive 715 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I wrote a biography about Vanessa Beeley. This is a very complicated article, because it is about propaganda, and powerful misinformation networks behind, so many people would have interests in deleting this article. So I fear it will soon be deleted, edited, etc. So far, one user added 3 warning headlines. One of them seems justified as it says some sources may not be reliable, which I can understand. The other 2 headlines, i'm not sure they are justified or not, it is concerning the notability of Vanessa Beeley, and as she regularly appears on Russian media, is invited in conferences with some main media, had an article about her is several main media, I think she fulfils Wikipedia article. How can I have advice concerning my article, the headlines, etc. I'd like to have the advice of administrators, to avoid people with to much conflict of interest. Thanks ! M.A. Martin (talk) 12:10, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much Finnusertop ! I'll try to add sources, fo the example you gave me, it's easy, on her blog, she says she is the daughter of Beeley, so I gues I just need to add the reference at the end of my sentence ? And do I need to try to do this for almost every sentence ? (is citation the same as reference ?) But my fear is : if I lil to her blog, this may say sources are not reliable, no ? Thanks in advance for furthur answer. And yes, in fact, I'd like editors advice, thank you for explaining the difference from administrator ! M.A. Martin (talk) 13:04, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Thank you very much but several of the wikilinks and sources you offered to add link directly to not reliable content defending Beeley, telling she is an Independent Journalist and claiming she does not "say" that she supports Bashar al Assad. I'm not sure this will help Wikipedia to see what is the reality about this person. I know it's controversial, but when reliable sources are needed while it is in The Guardian... I'm sorry but I sometime have to doubt the good faith of anyone involved around that subject.M.A. Martin (talk) 15:56, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
16:02, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I already add all these secondary sources : The Guardian Olivia Solon & George Monbiot The Syria Campaign Vanessa Beeley's own statements Reporter without borders Orient News L'obs Le Temps Snopes PulseMedia... and I was tryng to add more sources to improve the article, but I was just stoped in that, because I received this message, while my article was being removed :
" Please stop adding unreferenced or poorly referenced biographical content, especially if controversial, to articles or any other Wikipedia page, as you did at Vanessa Beeley. Content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Wikipedia policy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:24, 6 January 2018 (UTC) "
What do I have to think about that ?M.A. Martin (talk) 16:46, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
talk
Thank you for your help, but anyway,
I won't have time to be welcomed and try to improve my articles with reliabale sources, as I've been erased, and threatened of blocking, while I was trying to add reliable sources as Reporter Without Borders, and oher reliable second sources from main media.
I don't know why... Maybe now I need the help of an administrator ?M.A. Martin (talk) 16:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
"@ Please stop adding unreferenced or poorly referenced biographical content, especially if controversial, to articles or any other Wikipedia page, as you did at Vanessa Beeley. Content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Wikipedia policy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:24, 6 January 2018 (UTC)"
Good evening Seraphimblade, thank you very much for your answer.
My article was not an "attack page". I don't know if you've read it all, but I'm not sure you had the time to read all the articles, studies and reports that were secondary and reliable sources. Primary sources are mostly the one of the person I'm writing about, coming from her blogs and articles. Other primarily sources were from well-known journalists, as George Monbiot, or Olivia Solon, from the Guardian, who agreed that I shared her linkedin article where she tells she is "victim of a barrage of harassment", question her credibility and that of the Guardian. This is how propaganda works.
And I was just trying to comply with advices I was given, to add sources. But I didn't have time to do so, because you did not warn me and deleted while I was editing, I had asked questions to several editors here to improve the article. And even if I ha to add sources or modify or erase some elements, you know it was sourced with reliable sources for large parts of it, unless The Guardian, BBC, the Lancet, Channel 4, Snopes, Reporters without broders are all wrong...
For experience on controversial subjects, I have some (not on English Wikipedia), and it is not only my work, we are several (most of us have been blocked, threatened, harassed, insulted, without having even given false information or attacking anyone... and as I am not blocked, I'm the one who tries to publish our work here). I'm just the one who published similar article on an other Wikipedia languages, which has been approved, improved, and not judged as an attack by administrators.
I've read English Wikipedia policies : "When material is spunout of a biography of a public figure by consensus because that section of the article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article, it is not necessarily an attack page, even if the content in question reflects negatively upon its subject. "
If I wanted to attack, and not to be neutral, we wouldn't have tried to choose neutral vocabulary, we would have written "she claims" and not "she asserts", I would have quoted newspapers who says "she's not a journalist and never studied journalism", "she's a propagandists", "she's a Russian troll", "Queen of desinforation"...
So I'll just have to say I desagree on the "attack" page, because if there were negative things, it's merely because we're dealing with a person who fights against a "no-fly zone" in Syria to protect civilians, who denied crimes against humnity, who incite to heathread, violence, and crimes agaisnt humanity, who acknowledges in private that she'll never tell about tortures she knows about... And usually, people who share such points of views are quite with negative articles in Encyclopedies, not becasue they are being under attack. If the Guardian did not receive any complaint for this article : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories , it's because there is only truth and facts in it, that's why the journalist who wrote it is threatened since it was published. And this is only an example. If I didn't quote her twitt that is condemned for incitement of crimes against humanity which says "White Helmet are legitimate target", it's because our aim is not that people attack her (as she did to several of us, and as her bodyguards also did), because this is nothing with revenge or attack, this is information, factual informationaout something really important, vital ! We want that people know who they are reading, who they are hearing on TV, and understand she is not an independent journalist. If you really look for encyclopedic and factual information, with reliable secondary sources, you can look for information in the sources I gave (and I had some more to add), and delete only what was not good for English Wikipedia policy. I think Wikipedia is about building together reliable information and not about censor what does not seem convenient. And I think helping to improve my article would have been far much better than deleting it. SO, what do swe do, now ? Will you write yourself an article about Vanessa Beeley ? Because we have some dozens of hours of researches, contacts with researchers and journalists, some information that are important, even if you wrote me "as that's a very difficult thing to do and you clearly don't have the experience to know how to undertake that yet", I think I can tell you the same about powerful propoganda networks (except if I'm talking to someone who knows better than myself how it works, but I really don't hope so !)... Will you help us giving reliable information in free access for people on a crucial subject ? M.A. Martin (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your answer, once more. I understood Wikipedia aims at being neutral. As for the example you just gave me, in our sentence that talks about Zionism and Western media, there are two sources, and the second one is this one : [1], which says : " Resistance. vanessa beeley / September 12, 2014 Let me put it this way and maybe it will make sense to you. Palestine is the only nation that is standing firm against the Zionist entity that has infected our entire world infrastructure and is poisoning our minds, hearts and souls. Whilst we only suffer the fall out from this corporation of evil, Palestine eats, sleeps and breathes their demonic existence. For that reason alone God bless Palestine who are fighting to save the world on our behalf." (maybe you didn't found that link, maybe it was removed, maybe even it was a mistake of mine and did not appear in the article that I was still editing... I don't know), but source you've given me was linked to the other part of the sentence, about "Western Media".
By researches I meant collecting information and reliable sources, sorry, English is not my native language and I understand.
My question remains : what can we do to what you just wrote on that subject, that is :
"Rather, we should be collecting information that has already been verified by reliable sources, and putting it together in a neutral way. We don't allow use of your own research and journalism (unless it's published in a source that would already meet the standards of being reliable, such as a high reputation for accuracy, fact checking, and editorial control.) We collect and reflect what reliable sources have already said; we are not and do not aim to be the first publisher of any new information. In fact, we should be one of the last."
What can we do as a lot of reliable sources exist on the subject ? May I have access to our article, as a draft, to correct it and submit it to administrators before trying to publish it again ? Or may I do it with your help ? Thanks !--M.A. Martin (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Seraphimblade Thank you, once again for your answer.
You write "IF there are indeed sources that discuss her in reasonable detail (not just drop her name!)". I'm allowing myself this question : have you read my article and its sources before deleting it / before answering me just above ?
Guardian : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-helmets-conspiracy-theories "Some of the most vocal sceptics of the UN’s investigation include the blogger Vanessa Beeley, the daughter of a former British diplomat who visited Syria for the first time in July 2016" and "Separately, both Graphika and Menczer’s Hoaxy tool identify Beeley, the British blogger, as among the most influential disseminators of content about the White Helmets.", and have you read "Killing the truth" ?
"Beeley frequently criticises the White Helmets in her role as editor of the website 21st Century Wire, set up by Patrick Henningsen, who is also a former editor at Infowars.com."
"In 2016, Beeley had a two-hour meeting with Assad in Damascus as part of a US Peace Council delegation, which she described on Facebook as her “proudest moment”. She was also invited to Moscow to report on the “dirty war in Syria”; there, she met senior Russian officials including the deputy foreign minister, Mikhail Bogdanov, and Maria Zakharova, director of information and press at Russia’s foreign ministry."
"Meanwhile, Beeley’s influence continues. In April 2017, she gave a talk at a conference alongside ministers in Assad’s cabinet (who spoke via video conference) titled “White Helmets: Fact or Fantasy?” Her briefing paper and slides on the topic were then submitted to the UN security council and UN general assembly by the Russian government as “evidence” against the White Helmets."
etc.
12 occurences of "dropping Beeley's name" in this article seem to be a lot ! And I don't think you question the reliability of the Guardian ?
The Atlantic Council is also clear about her Vanessa Beeley, in this article : http://www.publications.atlanticcouncil.org/breakingaleppo/disinformation/
Have you read the report named "Killing the truth" ? There is a chapter on Vanessa Beeley.
etc.
I don't ask you to restore our article as it is, but in order to be edited and modified, and correspond to English Wikipedia policies, with your help and contribution if you like to...
I assure you it's a complicated enough subject so that I can understand that your first impresssion was an attack, more over if you didn't had time to read all sources and become familiar with the subject, but I'm sure that by now you've understand this is clearly not the case. Please could you edit and put back what you want about my article in my draft so I can work on it ? M.A. Martin (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Maproom Thank you very much for asking Seraphimblade to let me and the Wikipedia community work on the article to make it fit in English Wikipedia rules & standards. I don't understand his refusal, as he apparently can edit it and remove what he wants before restoring it as a draft without any violation. He tells someone can start again, while I explained if was hours of enquiries with a whole team, reading and compiling sources, writing, editing to try to neutral, remove personnal informations, etc. I think he knows it's not likely to happen if I can't have my draft, and he told me he would block me from edition if I do it again... Besides, I still hope to have an answer as why he chose to delete urgently before warning and reading sources. Difficult subject indeed, suche powerful propaganda on such importance level... Too many conflicts of interest and too many fears in too many places... Happily, this article has been received, accepted and improved by other administrators on other Wikipedia! Maproom If the subject interests you, I've asked for review for an article on Beeley's collegues a few days ago, maybe yuo can read it and help me to improve it (it also has many reliable sources, some are common with Beeley's articles, and it's also quite ngative with more controversies than positive things...) Thanks !
David notMD Sorry, I haven't read your comment before. Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, of course, I know about editing, and that's great that we can all add and improve Wikipedia, but I didn't think my question was premature, because it was already happening (and because the same happened to various articles we published, even purely neutral & factual, even not on living people). And now I think you can understand that my fears have become true. Article deleted by administrator without warning, refusal to put in draft / sandbox / discussion to improve and make it cumply with English Wikipedia rules before publishing again, and besides warning me I'll blocked if I continue... I think I can tell that all doors have been quickly closed... while I was trying to edit, add sources and follow the advice I've been given here. Thanks anyway. M.A. Martin (talk) 12:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
John from Idegon Yes, sure, as I've explained above, me and other human right defenders have been working together to compile information and sources, and they have helped me to select what was useful for my article here, what was to remove (as personnal informations or informations without reliable source), and others have done other articles in other languages or on related subjects. Unfortunately, I can't give you names because almost all of them have been blocked, insulted, defamed, threatenned, harassed... even famous researchers and journalists. But could you tell me why would you like to know about that, now the article has been deleted anyway.M.A. Martin (talk) 13:08, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
90.200.41.3 Yes indeed, no one but me uses my account, no one but me writes my sentences. It is just because I was helped "in amont" to gather all the sources and also to think about what would be relevant to use or not, and I was also helped to correct a few sentences to make my English correct a with neutral vocabulary. All the rest is personal. I subscribes all by myself and never shared my account nor intend I to do it. But anyhow, as I answered on my talk page, I'll give up because everytime I manage to prove my good faith about something, there always is a new argument coming, and if the notability of Vanessa Beeley or the mentions about her in "reliable sources" are only "drop name" as I was told (which I disagree, but...), I'm afraid I won't be allowed to publish any article about her on English Wikipedia. And as I still don't know wether my draf on Eva Bartlett will be accepted or not, I'm not sure I'll edit anything here. Thank you very much anyway to make things clear for me.M.A. Martin (talk) 16:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Goof Afternoon, Our company page, which is titled Meridian (private aviation company) was denied earlier this week. The reason for that was because our citations proved to be inadequate and reverted back to our actual company page. The problem is, all of our historical and factual information comes directly from the site. No other site has that type of information. Seeing that BY LAW, you cannot fabricate your company's history, information, and accomplishments, I don't see why it would be a problem that we used our website as a source. Sure there are other news articles that have reported on us before but none include the type of historical data that we want on our WIKI page. Is there a way I can by-pass the disapproval by the WIKI commons? Or a way I can create acceptable citations? Please let me know ASAP, for I am an intern trying to impress my boss by getting this up and running.
Sorry for the inconvenience and Thank You in advance!
Meridian (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I created a page notice for my userpage. But when i click edit the page notice dosen't show up what's wrong? you can find the template by searching User:Thegooduser/editnotice Thegooduser talk 01:44, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
((User:Thegooduser/editnotice))
to it for the template to show up. Happy editing! Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 01:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)@Rotideypoc41352: it still doesn't show up in the editing space Thegooduser talk 01:59, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
((subst:Editnotice userpage))
, not ((User:Thegooduser/editnotice))
. Please feel free to let me know how that goes. Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 02:06, 11 January 2018 (UTC)@Rotideypoc41352: it still does not show up in the editing page. Do you mind helping me do it? ThanksThegooduser talk 02:12, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
@Rotideypoc41352: Thanks so much! Have a great day! Thegooduser talk 02:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
I saw someone use instagram as a source. Is that reliable?Thegooduser talk 02:31, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
An editor in a previous discussion here said that the word “revert” only applies to using “the revert button,” and that using the “undo” feature isn’t considered a revert. I’m fairly certain a revert is any edit that restores a prior revision, but he insisted on this distinction, and I just want to make sure I didn’t miss a shift in wikijargon. Who’s right? —67.14.236.50 (talk) 00:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello,
I am a new Wikipedia user. I want to write an article on a singer. I am practicing in Sandbox. Please help me with how to add Discography and Infobox tables in my article.Maunika18 (talk) 10:21, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Lidasher (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC))Hello this article has had the references added. Is this correct please: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Lida_Sherafatmand(Lidasher (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC))
Hello Nick Moyes ! This article is created by Liesbeth (-redacted-). But the photograph of the art work I possess as the creator...so it is safe regarding copy-right, I am the artist myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lidasher (talk • contribs) 11:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi again...Nick Moyes :-) Well yes of course she knows me, Ms Liesbeth (-redacted-), that is why she uploaded the article. But there is NO PAYMENT !! She is not my agent or anything... is that a problem that she is not paid please?! regarding the copy-right of the image yes ok I can do that. That painting was nominated at the Global Art Awards, it is a very known piece... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lidasher (talk • contribs) 12:31, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Ok thanks so much Nick Moyes! I sent the page you have referred to her for declaration. The regulation regarding conflict of interest does make sense of course. Just in my position I do not have a political orientation or something, so my subject is neutral per se. Thanks for all your helpful feedback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lidasher (talk • contribs) 12:53, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi (talk), oh by 'neutral' I meant the information given in this article is just factual information (where was born, where was published, etc)...people can google me after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lidasher (talk • contribs) 13:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
I was wondering why my article was declined... if you coupd help me with the footnotes, would be greatGutemberg Fox (talk) 13:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
I just posted a new article about a minor Virginia politician and Confederate officer. Problem is, when checking the links I noticed they didn't work, because I hadn't included a space after his middle initial. Can you or someone help? His name is Robert E. Grant and I added the qualifier (dentist) to distinguish him from a more famous British scientist. Thanks.Jweaver28 (talk) 00:52, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
The Template:Shared_IP_gov template has a box that reads: "In response to vandalism from this IP address, anonymous editing may be disabled." and there is a red stop-sign with a white x, next to this message. In my knowledge, this is improper communication and is communicating that the person that this "welcome" template was added to caused vandalism, prior to the template being added to their page (it is so in my case).
Am I allowed to edit the template? The template is in a lot of places and I don't want to waste everyones time trying to guide me in the direction of correcting this flaw in the template. I have found how to edit the template, I just want to know if I can just modify it as I can't find any rules about it.
I would like to change the warning to something like: "Note: Vandalism performed by users on this IP address will result in anonymous editing being blocked."
Please let me know. 134.186.234.108 (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
134, if no one is responding to your request at the template talk page, that's a fair indication that there, like here, no one is agreeing with your assessment. First, the template you are discussing is not a welcome template, but an informational template to inform all users that the particular IP you are using is a static IP assigned to a particular organization. And your interpretation of the language is IMO faulty. "In response to vandalism from this IP address, anonymous editing may be disabled" simply says IF vandalism occurs from the IP address, one of the responses MAY be to disable anonymous editing. That is what one of the responses MAY be from any point of access to Wikipedia, whether anonymous or registered, to vandalism. It is there to let you know that if you register an account, and that IP is blocked, you will still be able to edit. Like virtually anything else on Wikipedia, that was at some point decided by a consensus of editors. Changing it also requires a consensus. The fact that you are getting no response is a fairly clear indication there is no consensus for the change. Like any other private endeavor you may choose to engage in, we have our policies and procedures here, which apply to all of the tens of millions of pages that make up Wikipedia (there are over 5.5 million articles alone, each of which also has a talk page, plus a userpage and a talk page for every registered editor, plus a talk page for every one of the IP addresses that have ever edited here, not to mention thousands of drafts and thousands more policy pages). I'm sorry, but the fact that you, apparently alone, find the wording on a template that is in use on thousands of pages, somehow offensive, is relatively insignificant. So how about ignoring it, and go about editing articles? That's why you came here, I'd assume. John from Idegon (talk) 01:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
I've stumbled across highschool yearbook photos of a person with an article. Are they good for use in articles? The Verified Cactus 100% 04:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)