Old Trafford

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I've listed this article for peer review because I wish to eventually submit it as a featured article candidate, as part of my drive to get Manchester United F.C. and its related articles to Featured Topic status. I believe some statements may require referencing, but I am unsure exactly which ones these are. I have based the article's structure on that used in Priestfield Stadium and Portman Road, both of which are now Featured Articles. I believe the content of Old Trafford is much more comprehensive than either of those two, and so it shouldn't take too much effort to get it to Featured status.

Thanks, – PeeJay 23:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

My thoughts:

• Not keen on the sentences in parentheses in the lead, are the parentheses really necessary?
  •  Done
• "bar an eight year " - except for an eight year..?
  •  Done
• Is all the information in the infobox referenced by [1]?
  • Yes. How should I deal with this to make that self-evident?
• 1910-present should be 1910–present.
  •  Done
• "it was decided " by whom?
• "so funds were released " from where and by whom?
  •  Done both of the above
• History is 13 paragraphs, most of them quite short, I'd try to merge some of them.
  •  Done
• Broke ground in 1909 and "Development was completed in 1909" - so the whole stadium was completed within a year? (just checking...)
  • Ref 1 states that the ground was built in 1909. I would take this as meaning that the entire construction process was completed within the year of 1909, before the ground was opened in early 1910.
• " a rarity for British club grounds. " - sounds like WP:OR to me!
  •  Done
• " this record will almost certainly be broken by United themselves." - WP:CRYSTAL (although I'm sure you're right).
  • I have re-worded this sentence to make it seem less prophetic.
• "Chelsea won the match 2–1." and its paragraph have no citations.
  • I have added citations to some of the statements, but I don't believe the fact that Chelsea won the FA Cup Final needs referencing.
• link " hooligan firm"
  •  Done
• Are stands capitalised or not? "north stand" or "North Stand"?
  • Yes, they are. The official name for each stand is "North Stand", "West Stand", "South Stand" and "East Stand". A bit soulless, I'll grant you, but that's the way they are.
• Last two paragraphs of History are uncited.
  •  Done
• "3 days " - three days.
  •  Done
• Pele's real name is Pelé.
  •  Done
• Paras 3,4 and 5 of structure and facilities uncited.
  •  Done
• "most famous stand at Old Trafford is perhaps the West Stand" - substantiate the claim.
  •  Not done Since I've used "perhaps", I didn't think a ref was required, but I'll see if I can find one.
• Jumbo jet links to a disambiguation page.
  •  Done Linked to wide-body aircraft instead.
• Avoid in-line linking such as ManUtd.com.
  •  Not done It seemed appropriate at the time, but if it's against the MOS to have links like that in the middle of text, then I'll remove it.
• Use the ((convert)) template for measurements so imperial and metric units are given.
  •  Done
• Transport section is unreferenced.
  •  Done
• Five external links really necessary?
  •  Done Reduced to two links.
• Suc box and template-tastic - any way of hiding any of those?
  •  Done Deleted the succession boxes, but I don't know how to make templates hideable.

Hope these help. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have now dealt with each of the concerns expressed here. Any other comments, please share them. – PeeJay 18:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Oldelpaso

• Some things mentioned in the lead are not mentioned in the body - Euro 96, Champions League final, Maine Road.
  •  Done
• The bit about the Olympics is speculative and uncited, and should probably be removed.
  •  Done
• Both grounds were blighted by wretched conditions Such as?
  •  Done
• Leitch designed a large number of grounds. It might be better to say something to this effect than give a list of seemingly randomly selected examples.
  •  Done
• However, the visitors spoiled the proceedings POV. I'm sure Liverpool didn't regard it that way.
  •  Done Reworded
• Ironically, the record attendance at Old Trafford is not for a United home game Unusual but not irony. Incidentally, a near-converse is also true, United's record home crowd isn't at Old Trafford.
  •  Done Well said too.
• the Red Army – became one of the most feared in the country uncited, gained notoriety would probably be better.
• Their activity forced the club to erect the country's first perimeter fence around the Old Trafford pitch. An unintended meaning is present here - it was the first perimeter fence separating a crowd from a football pitch, not the first perimeter fence.
  •  Done and  Done
• After the first improvements to the ground had been made following the Second World War, the capacity of the ground had been steadily declining. By the 1980s... Could do with rewording, it makes it sound like the capacity dropped every few weeks or something.
  •  Done
• Traditionally, the stand is where the hard-core United fans sit Traditionally they stood there.
  •  Done

Hope this helps. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think I've covered everything there. Any more comments, you know the drill. – PeeJay 00:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Qwghlm

• I think this article relies too much on one source, a greater diversity would be appreciated.
  • I would tend to agree, but there's a limited number of sources that go into as much depth as the one at manutdzone.com. I'll see if I can find some different ones though. I'm sure there's a couple of things in The United Miscellany or The Man Utd Miscellany (strangely, these are two different books by two different authors, and produced by two different publishers within about six months of each other. Weird, huh?)
• Infobox needs to include the costs of renovations and architects since Leitch, since so little of the original remains.
  • If you know where I can find such information, please provide a link.
    • Given the abundancy of books about the club, the information is undoubtedly out there. I've emailed you with one example I know of. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • As I said in my email reply, I don't doubt that the information is out there. It's just that I have a grand total of about five books on the history of Manchester United, two of which are trivia books, and one focuses on the Newton Heath era (1878-1902), so it's no help here. – PeeJay 19:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Another resource I neglected to mention is Google Book Search. Generally best for academic sources, but it might turn up some useful architectural information with the right search terms. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• This article used to be at Old Trafford (football) with Old Trafford being a dab page. Why was the move made arbitrarily rather than with discussion, in contravention of WP:RM?
  • Yeah, that wasn't me. Someone went round most of the football grounds recently and moved
• Don't like a POV nickname by a biased source being given in the introductory sentence.
  •  Not done The Theatre of Dreams is a nickname used by people all over the world. I dare say you've even referred to Old Trafford by that name yourself once or twice.
• wretched conditions - probably a more neutral and informative way (what was the problem? Bad pitch? Insufficient capacity? Poor location?)
  • already done
• who also designed stands at... - Leitch designed dozens of clubs' stands, probably best to drop this clause, people can always find a comprehensive list in the article about him.
  • as above
• the visitors spoiled the proceedings - POV
  • as above
• barely two days after the team had beaten the same Villa side 4–3 at Villa Park - irrelevant
  •  Done I'm not quite sure why I thought that needed to be in there in the first place.
• Ironically, the record attendance at Old Trafford is not for a United home game - how is this ironic?
  • Apparently I don't know the meaning of the word "ironic".
• At the ground's present capacity of 76,212... - delete this entire sentence, WP:NOTCRYSTAL
  •  Not done Looks OK when combined with the following sentence.
• Split the fourth paragraph into two.
  • Since the fourth paragraph is about five lines long, I assume you mean the third paragraph, which I have now split.
• the club's hooligan firm – the Red Army – became one of the most feared in the country. - POV and probably unsalvageable, get rid of it.
  • reworded
• However, in 2003, the Football Association decided to make Old Trafford the regular venue for England matches. - needs clarity - the City of Manchester Stadium, St James' Park, Villa Park and Anfield all hosted England matches between 2003 and 2007 [1] [2]. Should clarify that OT was the most used but not exclusively so and provide a count (x of England's y matches)
  •  Done and thanks for the references.
• Old Trafford's most recent expansion needs a specific date
  •  Done
• The whole of the last paragraph of the history section should be condensed, it reads like a very tedious list of matches. Just say the extension was gradually opened and state the current record.
  •  Done
• The stadium is now the 36th largest football venue in the world and the 12th largest in Europe - Wikipedia cannot reference itself; use an alternative.
  •  Not done Couldn't find an alternative without referencing the capacity of every ground above Old Trafford in the table, so I deleted the statement.
• is considered to be the ground's main stand - weasel words. If it is the largest stand of the stadium then just state that.
• In fact, the stand is so big that the roof is the largest cantilever roof in Europe. - horrible English, fix it.
  •  Done Deleted both of the above
• The roar coming from the Stretford End was once measured as being louder than a jumbo jet taking off. - ambiguous and highly dubious as a Boeing 747 can deafen you if you're close enough. How many decibels exactly, and at what distance was each measurement taken?
  • Deleted. I really must stop taking my references from fansites.
• The K Stand fans are renowned for their vocal support for the club, and a large array of chants and songs, - citation needed
• Also, what does the "K" in "K Stand" stand for?
  • Attempted to cite, but I have no idea what the "K" stands for. I'm fairly certain there were two other initialled stands, "J Stand" and "G Stand", and that "G Stand" was in the United Road End, while "J Stand" was close to "K Stand".
    • I don't have a ref, but I'm sure it doesn't stand for anything - going back a few years, blocks of seating were allocated letters, starting with A at one part of the ground and moving around alphabetically. Chances are that post-Taylor Report none of it makes sense any more (and some of them probably no longer exist) but the initials are still commonly used in some cases. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I had a feeling that was probably the case. Couldn't be sure though, as I'm way too young to know anything about stadium organisation from before the 1990s. – PeeJay 19:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• I agree that the ManUtd.com link should be removed, it gives the impression of being spam (even if it is not intended to be the case)
  •  Done
• Uniquely, in September 1994, an edition of Songs of Praise was recorded there. - not uniquely, an edition was recorded from the Millennium Stadium.
  •  Done
• See also links to North Road and Bank Street should really be put in the MUFC nav template. Old Trafford Cricket Ground is linked to in the intro and doesn't need to be here either.
  •  Done

That's it for now. The article is fairly good, though the prose doesn't quite flow as well as I'd like in some cases, but the above are the most urgent cases for fixing. Qwghlm (talk) 21:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I hope I've dealt with those satisfactorily. I'm sure there's still plenty of work to be done though. That'll teach me to try and write an article in chunks, rather than in one fell swoop. – PeeJay 00:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. Just to elaborate on a couple of things - I don't think the fact the record attendance is for a Cup semi-final is ironic, as Cup semi-finals are a regular occurrence and prestigious events in themselves. If you can't find figures for the stadium's renovations for the infobox, fair enough, but please make clear in the infobox that the costs & architect were for the original 1910 stadium. Oh and finally, as an Arsenal fan I can assure you I have never referred to the stadium as "The Theatre of Dreams" :) Qwghlm (talk) 14:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have removed all references to irony from the article. Instead, I have mentioned that it is unusual for the stadium's record attendance not to involve its home club. I'm not quite sure how to make it clear that the cost and architect are only for the original stadium, so I've just put the year in parentheses after each. Hope that's OK. Just so you know, I never referred to Highbury as "the home of football" either. May have called it "The Library" once or twice though. ;) – PeeJay 14:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR _t 02:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• From the instructions above: "Please do not include any images, such as done/not done templates with tick/cross graphics..." Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]