This peer review discussion has been closed.
Another stab at a FA on a non-league football club, pretty much following the pattern of other similar FAs such as Stocksbridge Park Steels. Let me know what you think, anyway..........
Thanks, ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Chris, as requested, my comments...
- "...as their ground ..." I think the whole lead talks about the club in the singular, this is the only plural...
- "massive debts" - bit POV, massive on a Leeds Utd scale or massive on a non-league couple of grand scale?
- "150[6].." move that reference if you can.
- " due to no teams being relegated." - why did that happen?
- I presume it was because no teams were eligible to move up to that league, but as I can't quantify it I've just taken that bit out
- "combination of on- and off-pitch problems" - ok, I get the on-pitch problems but perhaps you could explain the off pitch issues?
- Done - I've reworded it a bit, although I am none the wiser as to the exact nature of the off-pitch issues.....
- "only due to the fact that" - bit clumsy (in my humble opinion!)
- "steer" and "steering" used in quick succession.
- Move that ref "season[5]" if possible, does it also cite the league finish?
- "with Kingstonian." - make it plain this is another football team (non-experts may be confused).
- " The club was by now in severe" - probably needs some commas or a bit of rework.
- "said to exceed £100,000." - said by whom? Is this cited in the following reference?
- Re-worded slightly - the reference doesn't specifically state who did the estimation of the debt.....
- ".. relegated to the..." could emphasise "relegated back to the"?
- "Creditors Voluntary Arrangement" - jargon - perhaps find a suitable wikilink or describe administration or something?
- Done I think....not very up on company law ;-)
- "relegated to the Southern League" versus "first season back in the Southern League Premier Division" - I'm a little confused by premier or not...
- "Dover were relegated to Division One" - I'd emphasise this was Isthmian First Division...
- "CVA" - place this in parentheses after the first use of the phrase.
- Crest section is a little weak but it's hard to think of what else you could put there...!
- I've added a tiny bit more, like you say though I'm not sure what else could go in there......
- "permitted to step up after" - strange turn of phrase, a little unclear what this means.
- "fourth (final) " - I'd just stick with final qualifying round.
- " but only once progressed to the first round proper"..."...where they lost to..."? (just a thought).
- Get rid of the bullet point for the link to the Category. I'd actually make this a ((main)) thing above the current squad.
- I'm not sure this is the right approach, personally. Can a category really be said to be a "main article" on a subject.............?
- Don't like the central alignment in the name column of the Managers table. Also I'd be tempted to have a notes column for the references.
That's about it, certainly should make it through FAC with little trouble. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks as ever for your extremely insightful comments! ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR t 01:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Chris, great job as ever. Haven't done a peer review in a while, but here are my comments...
- “In the 1989–90 season Dover won the championship of this league but failed to gain promotion to the Football Conference as the club's ground did not meet the required standard. Three seasons later Dover won the title again and this time gained promotion to the Conference, where the team spent nine seasons before being relegated.” These two sentences read poorly – “this league” and the repetition of “Conference.” How about… “In the 1989–90 season Dover won the Southern League championship but failed to gain promotion as the club's ground did not meet the required standard. Three seasons later Dover won the title again and this time gained promotion to the Conference, where the team spent nine seasons before being relegated.” I know I’m sort of contradicting myself, as you’ve now got the repetition of Southern League in “The club was formed in 1983 after the dissolution of the town's previous club, Dover F.C. and took that club's place in the Southern League. In the 1989–90 season Dover won the Southern League championship but failed to gain promotion as the club's ground did not meet the required standard.” But I think its appropriate in this case as some time has passed between the two events.
- “Dover Athletic F.C. was formed in 1983 after the town's previous club, Dover F.C., folded due to its debts, and took over Dover's place in the Southern League Southern Division, with former Dover player Alan Jones as manager and a team consisting mainly of reserve players from the old club.” Long sentence, can be broken in half – “debts. They took over…”
- “Kinnear was dismissed due to a combination of the team's poor performances and his own off-pitch personal problems” not sure you need “off-pitch” here.
- “Dover clung onto their place” sounds petty, but clung is a vaguely emotive word. “Held” would be better.
- ‘Kingstonian F.C.' needs piping. I presume TRM has suggested making it clear it's another football club, but it's inconsistent with other clubs being mentioned. Maybe put "'whatever league' club Kingstonian."
- “In Dover's first season back in the Southern League Premier Division the Whites finished in third place, albeit 17 points adrift of Tamworth, who claimed the one promotion place available that season,[7] but a poor start to the following season saw Walker replaced by Richard Langley.” Long sentence. The clause regarding Langley would better be placed in the next sentence, which would make it of a similar length but would flow better.
- “Dover Athletic's home ground since the club's foundation has been the Crabble Stadium, which was also the home of Dover F.C. until that club folded in 1983.” Is “that club” necessary? Can “they” be used? I think there’s an instance of this in the lead, actually…
- I think I chose those words in an attempt to get round the age-old "club is plural/club is singular" debate. I'll try and think of a better way to word it......
- “Several years previously it had been known as the Hoverspeed Stadium under the terms of another such agreement.” Are dates available?
Not that I've found so far, although I'll keep looking..... Done
- “The club has an active Supporters' Trust, which at one time took over the running of the club after the resignation of the board of directors.” Again, any dates?
- Regarding the attendances bit, why have the three Conference attendances been highlighted as opposed to those of any other season?
- Not sure, probably to do with what data was available. I've rewritten it in more general terms
- “Dover's highest ever finish in the English football league system was a sixth-place finish in the Football Conference, the highest level of non-league football and the fifth level overall, in the 1999–00 season.” Would work better as “Dover's highest ever finish in the English football league system was in the 1999–00 season, in which they finished sixth in the Football Conference, the highest level of non-league football and the fifth level overall.
- “Probably the club's most high-profile former manager is Peter Taylor who, immediately after leaving The Crabble, went on to manage England Under-21s.” I never really like the use of the ground as a substitute word for the club, as it implies all the club’s activities are at that ground (when in fact they train elsewhere, play away games etc.) I think you can use “Dover” again.
- I think the rivalries section can be placed within the supporters one, it looks odd where it is.
- I believe the club MoS recommends it should be a separate section, certainly that's how it's been set out in all the other club FAs I've been involved with......
That's it, as TRM says it should make FA easy. Cheers, HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments Mike, I've addressed some and will look at the rest tomorrow...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I have done a few minor semantic and punctuation changes: the other things that occur to me are:
- ... was forced to enter a Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA), a process by ...: Were they actually forced (by whom?), or did they make a financial decision, albeit with few alternatives? If entering a CVA is the same as going into administration (and I'm not sure that it is), then the latter phrase is more commonly used in relation to football teams, could be wikilinked without explanation.
- I've removed the word "forced", but to be honest I have absolutely no idea if a CVA is the same thing as what is normally referred to in the football world as "administration", and the searches I did weren't really very forthcoming, so I think it has to stay as it is, using the terminology used by the sources......
- Is there an inconsistancy between The Dover team wears a predominantly white kit (lead para)and Dover's traditional colours are white and black (Colours and crest section)? Maybe white shirts instead of predominantly white kit in the intro?
- Should the intervention of the supporters' trust in 2001 be included in the history, or would that be repetitive?
- I think that if a whole section is to be given to the supporters, it should not be so focussed on one season's statictics. Could that be construed as recentism?
To be fair, it gives details of the most recent two seasons, the levels of support enjoyed in the Conference, and details about the trust. It doesn't seem too recentist to me..... Actually after further consideration I think you could be right, so I've re-written it accordingly......
- Throughout the article, Dover and Dover Athletic are used interchangeably. Informal, and normal colloquial use is to drop the Athletic, but this is not explained, and might lead some readers to wonder whether it is the previous club that is meant. I agree that it could look clumsily repetitive to always have the A word, especially as this is not what is usually said, so I'm not sure what the suitable way to clarify this is.
- I've been through and changed a few where it could possibly have been ambiguous, but I don't think the use of the name "Dover" when referring to specific events in, say, 2002 is ambiguous given that the article states in multiple places that the old club folded in 1983.......
- In the infobox, is it really becessary to have stadium and athletic ground as two lines of the address?
Well on the way to being another of your thorough and exemplary articles. Kevin McE (talk) 14:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- thanks for your comments,
have addressed some, will look at the rest later..... all done now, I think..... ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]