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To archive an article from the disputes page, check over the dispute, and see if any enforcement is necessary. For instance, if a discussion results in 5 editors for delisting an article and 1 against, then delist the article as you archive it. If a dispute is close, for instance, an approximately even amount of editors taking a side, try to make a new comment rather than archiving, to see whether the dispute should continue. Make sure not to archive active discussions, a good rule is to not archive anything that has a comment less than a week old, unless a resolution has been posted to the discussion. An exception to this rule involves disputes which have a clear outcome in these ways: There is at least an 80 percent majority to do something with an article, there are at least 6 votes, and at least three days have passed since the article was nominated for review.

Archived Disussions

Michael Jackson

Result: Keep 6-1

previous GA/R

Lead is too long, given the amount of time the article's editors have had to fix this issue since it was last raised. Removing extraneous text is simple and this article has been like it for what I would say was an unacceptable time-span for how long an article should be allowed to sit with issues before being delisted (2 months, anyone?).

I personally feel the article's main editor (UberCryxic) is resisting all change other than he himself makes, whilst this is... unhelpful, I don't (to be honest) care. The fact (and my only grievance) is it makes the article non-GA worthy in this case. The editor seems to be charged with a polarised viewpoint and it shows in the current version of the article.

The GA approved version: [1] and the current: [2]. Is this article GA status? I don't feel it has that neutral quality it once possessed, it's got too many album covers and other non-free images. It sucks.

Personal attempts to shrink the lead/effect basic changes due to lack of attribution for the claims made were reverted by the main current contributor (UberCryxic)[3] (note how this reversion of his reintroduces completely unsourced libel material about him being a part of a circuit involving prostitutes that has no source). Previous attempts to delist article (by another editor) were also stonewalled by by the same contributor "discussion closed in next edit with comment "Michael Jackson - Archiving Michael Jackson: Current discussion shows no hope of consensus. Vote is 5-4 after SIX weeks of discussion. Maintain status quo (keep).)".

The version actually given GA status [4] is nothing like this version either (notice the much shorter, definately more neutral lead - although that article also does not meet GA status requirements). The majority of editors to that version appear to have left editing duties of the article after UberCryxic joined.

Homestarmy, Nehrams2020, Quadzilla99 and LaraLove all pointed out the overlength of the lead in the previous review. This was not rectified. I previously ceased editing May 06 - May 07, on the basis I would make an more balanced attempt to take wikipedia forward on my return. This article has actually gone backwards in that time (unlike my favorite band article, Megadeth). I think we should revert to the GA status version of November linked to previously within my statement, although I would still advocate its delisting in that case until it really does meet the criteria which the November version also did not. That is not a condition of delisting (as if I am in a position to dictate, or to care to), although if you would support that move I'd ask that you state it, so we're in the clear, consensus wise on my idea to perhaps move forwards (even if it does seem like moving backwards). --Manboobies 23:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Man's proposel isn't about delisting or keeping as much as it is proposing to revert this article to an earlier form. Homestarmy 02:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case, then that particular request should have been made in the talk page of the article, which is what I suggested to the user. Everything aside, however, this article simply should not be here at this moment; that is, undergoing a GA review.UberCryxic 02:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is all not mentioning the fact that the original version that was promoted to GA status was quite atrocious, stylistically, encyclopedically, and in every other way. Ample evidence can be found in the archives of the talk page detailing the reasons for the changes. The original version became a GA article because of copious citations, but little else.UberCryxic 02:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"I think we should revert to the GA status version of November linked to previously within my statement, although I would still advocate its delisting in that case until it really does meet the criteria which the November version also did not" as you can see I clearly said that it should be delisted and reverted. Not that it should be just reverted. Is anyone here reading other people's comments fully?--Manboobies 18:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those are the reasons that I vote to delist it. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron, your initial argument is absolutely irrelevant. Even if you try to sugarcoat the result as "no consensus" or whatever, you're still left with the fact that....there was no consensus. In light of that fact, it is best to wait some time before making such a quick renomination. We are all more than happy to consider all of your points and those of Manboobies, but in the talk page of the article, not in a hasty and inappropriate GA review.UberCryxic 03:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His initial comment is more than relevant. You are stonewalling any changes you do not want made and using the "I need more time" excuse to perpetuate a rubbish article as one of our best. It needs delisting. Also, please do not contact me on my talk page to give the mistaken idea we are communicating saliently on this one. You are reverting any changes I make, and this article sucks, it needs delisting, and reverting. --Manboobies 18:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And for something else: we can actually use this "GA review" as a vehicle for improving the article (kind of like a peer review), but bear in mind that there will be no such things as votes or what have you. It's too soon for that. The votes have no authority with this GA review because its very existence is faulty and misguided.UberCryxic 03:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really, so your arguement is "No one has to listen to you because you lost last time..." Nice attitude. I am sorry you are not interested in seeking the honest opinions of GA reviewers, and instead are only looking to "Win" something. It is my honest opinion that this is NOT a Good Article, and it does NOT belong on the GA list as is, since it violates WP:WIAGA. These violations exist irregardless of prior votes on this. If you wish to improve this article to GA status, please do so, and I will be glad to endorse this as a GA when the time comes, but it is my honest opinion that this article should NOT be listed as a GA in the state that it is in. It's isn't about "winning". Its about the fact that having substandard articles on the list degrades the entire project, and that can't be tolerated, if only to say "I won this battle two weeks ago, so we must wait longer before we have it again." There are concrete reasons why this article should not be a GA; there are fixes that need to be made to get it there, I have listed many above. The problems are not minor, they are legion, and I see no reason to keep this substandard article around simply because there was a deadlocked vote two weeks ago. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please no strawmen arguments. Don't try to get an upper hand in this process by throwing around wild claims. I am more than willing to seriously consider a GA review at the appropriate time. Now is clearly not the appropriate time. It is a long-standing tradition in Wikipedia that if something fails to gain consensus, it is best to wait some time before making another major push. In fact, I would just like to direct your attention to this article's FA nominations (the third one is here). After a fairly quick renomination, some reviewers explicitly told the nominating user that more time has to be allotted to address the concerns that were raised in the previous discussions. The same thing has to happen here now. We can't just have a GA review two weeks after we closed a fairly thorough one. What is all this stuff about "winning"? Please leave that out of here. It has nothing to do with improving the article or the arguments that you and I are making towards that end. I am more than happy to address all of these concerns in the talk page, not in a misguided GA review.UberCryxic 03:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, as you can see in the talk page of the nominator, despite reminding the user that many of these claims have been thoroughly addressed before, I still treat them as "very legitimate." I am not trying to dismiss anything. This is just the wrong method to go about improving the article. That's essentially all I'm arguing, as are several others.UberCryxic 03:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize. I was jumping to conclusions about your motives, and I appreciate that you want this article improved. I was wrong to make it appear as though you were making arguements when you weren't. Please accept my humble apology. I still feel that the article needs some serious work, and I hope you take my above suggestions to heart and use them to help improve the article. If you would like, please paste them (or I can) to the talk page if you feel that is more appropriate. I want to see this article improved, and I am sorry that I made it seem that you had motives that you did not. It was inexcusable for me to do so, and I offer no explanation beyond my apology. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words. No harsh feelings and apology accepted. Process is very important though, especially in Wikipedia. We should give your recommendations, and that of every other person here, every ounce of effort once this GA review closes, and yes posting them in the talk page would be best. Right now, this review itself is the cloud hanging over the actual improvement of the article, amazingly ironic since improving the article is precisely what it's trying to do....it's just going about it the wrong way.UberCryxic 04:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please be aware (for the general audience, although Uber almost certainly knows):

A majority of those involved in the last GA review voted to keep this article's status. The user's characterization of what happened at the last review is completely incorrect as most of those who participated shared my opinions. Refer to what I told Jayron above; the lack of consensus, especially such a strong lack of consensus, is a good enough reason to wait some time before attempting something major with this article. We've already had neutral opinions before and we reached no definitive conclusions. Again, have some patience on this one. We can revisit the issue later, but even better, we can revisit the issues right now in the talk page, not here. It does not matter that you specifically were not here. There was plenty of feedback from others; many people participated in that GA review. It also does not matter that you refuse to believe what I'm saying; GA reviews are not bestowed with power and authority simply because someone creates them. This review has no legitimacy whatsoever. Furthermore, as was stated before, you are hurting your own cause it seems. We can talk about all of this in the talk page of the article. There is no need to heighten tensions by creating an unnecessary GA review and imposing loose time limits and forcing an issue at an uncomfortable moment.UberCryxic 19:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are mistaken:
These points make this article non-GA worthy, and it should be delisted. --Manboobies 20:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally I have struck through the text from you implying I have given this a time limit. There is no time limit for discussion. I have said repeatedly now is a perfect time. It is you who said on my talk page we should wait until August.--Manboobies 20:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not mistaken at all, and I can easily show why. Let's roll through these statements one by one, shall we? Ok. You stated, "everyone has commented the lead is too long." That's plainly absurd. Go here to see the last GA review of this article. First of all, there were four delists (one "weak") and five keeps. Let's just make certain we understand that. Secondly, plenty of people commented that they were happy with the lead. Some of those who voted keep made statements like "the lead gives me a good summary of the article" and "The problem seems to be the lead for most delisters. Note that the article is over 100k, meaning that the four-paragraph lead really isn't too long given the article's size." The person who made the latter comment is, of course, absolutely right. This is a long article and almost demands a relatively long lead (relative to other articles, that is).

I thoroughly addressed the arguments of people who wanted to trim the lead and I even complied partially, eliminating a lengthy quotation. As I explained to the main protagonist pushing for a shorter lead, however, the length of the Michael Jackson lead was not that much bigger than the length of the lead of the Michael Jordan article, an article that the user had recently taken to FA status. Instead of attacking me for not paying attention or something to that effect, I sincerely urge you to review my arguments against your position, which are quite detailed. Nevertheless, the point is that not everyone disliked the lead, so your assertion up there is completely false.

You then stated that "everyone" is attacking the "unsourced" information. Generally, they are not. You are the only one doing that. Know why? Because this article is heavily cited, and one could even successfully argue it's overly cited in some parts. One of the people in the review stated the following, also in relation to the lead: "I think it could be trimed down though [the lead], and leads generally shouldn't need that many references." Once again, your suppositions above are highly incorrect. Just out of curiosity: did you read what people wrote in the last GA review?

Your characterization of my interactions with the banned user are also vastly exaggerated. We talked for one or two days; that's it. That person was then banned and could no longer participate. Where did you get 6 weeks from? I don't want to insinuate anything, but again: did you look at the GA review? Just as many people came down on my side as did against (4). When the Supreme Court hands down a 5-4 decision on a controversial issue, it doesn't take up the matter two weeks later. The analogy has flaws for obvious reasons, but the larger point remains: a GA review now is the wrong thing at the wrong time for this article. Your concerns would be much better served in the talk page, and there only.UberCryxic 03:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify for those reading this: please refer to Lara's talk page and read my explanation regarding the user whose comments I crossed out. On the lead: for the article as it is, the lead does a very good job at summarizing the subject. Lara posits that there is "too much detail" but offers no specifics. The lead does perhaps the main thing that a good lead should do: explain the significance of the subject. Bear in mind that Michael Jackson is a living person, so unfortunately many of these supposed problems (especially relating to length), but some actual problems too, will persist until after he dies. Beyond this, I largely agree with Lara's other comments. This article has problems with reference formatting and lack of citations in some areas. We will get to all of those in due time. But, again, this is a debate that should be occurring in the talk page of the article, not in a GA review, at least not in light of what just happened with the last review closing only two weeks ago.UberCryxic 06:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't think it's that difficult to figure out what needs to be removed from the lead considering it's been said multiple times between the two reviews. Possibly read back over the suggestions from both reviews. Also reading over summary may help. Remove specifics. He's inspired and influenced a generation... fantastic! Like who?, the readers will wonder... (Read the article). He's won awards and sold millions of records! What awards, and how many millions of records, and for what albums?! (Read the article). Entice the reader. Give them the basic information, but make them WANT to read the rest. And trim the article down so they don't lose interest or get discouraged when they see that four seconds of scrolling only dropped the bar down one inch. LaraLoveT/C 07:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Referncing vote by Paaerduag in Consensus Check below) That's a comment, not a keep vote. Comments following your vote should be a justification/explanation of your vote, rather than a complaint or suggestion. LaraLoveT/C 18:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC) There's no set standard on what a "Keep" or "Delist" vote should look like in terms of explanation. People complain all the time in their voting comments. If the person says "Keep," he or she means keep the article as a GA, or at least that's what we have to assume if we're being reasonable.UberCryxic 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While that is true, complaints following comments don't generally contradict the vote. If you will notice, all votes from regular GA/R editors are followed by some sort of justification or explanation. That is the expectation of those voting. Even those who apparently only vote when this particular article is up for review. --LaraLoveT/C 06:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well if what I said is true, then what you said in the beginning, that what Paarduag wrote was "not a keep vote," has to be false. Yes what Paarduag wrote is unconventional, but not amazingly unique or anything. I myself have had plenty of instances when I've voted on something and then gone off on some tangent that really wasn't related to the vote. That doesn't make votes illegitimate at all. The only thing that matters is the "keep" or "delist" labels.UberCryxic 17:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment being correct does not make mine false. Just because it's not a written standard does not mean there is no expectation. If you are going to have all the MJ article contributors come sway the consensus, there should at least be some justification behind it. We go to the trouble to list the prodigious issues with the article that disqualify it for GA. There can at least be a paragraph of explanation as to why all of that should be ignored so that the article can keep GA. LaraLoveT/C 17:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well of course it makes your comment false. If a person can just say "keep" or "delist," which is what I'm saying, it doesn't matter what they follow that up with. Doesn't matter if you consider it an "explanation" or "justification" or whatever. All that matters is the "keep" or "delist" for the vote to count....and, obviously, other important issues, like credibility of the user and so forth.UberCryxic 22:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus check

Tangental debates above threaten to derail what should be the point of this discussion. Below this header, I simply want to focus the discussion to the salient point at hand. What is your response to this question: Does the article Michael Jackson, in the state it is currently in, meet all the criteria as spelled out in WP:WIAGA? If you wish to answer this question, please do so below. If you wish to leave other comments, please do so in the above section.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 16:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It looks as though the lead has greatly improved. I still recommend changing the organization of the article to a more logical layout: Maybe this heading organization might work better for readability. Reorganization could do much more than random cutting in making the article easier to read and follow. Consider this:
  • Recording and performance career
  • Jackson 5
  • Off the Wall
  • Thriller
  • Bad
  • etc. etc.
  • Acting Career
  • Personal Life
  • Early life
  • Marriages and children
  • Charitable work
  • Child molestation charges
  • Influence
  • Music Video
  • Performance Style
  • Themes and genres
  • Discography
  • Filmography
  • Awards and honors
  • Apendices (refs, see alsos, etc.)
This organization has the benefit of separating the public Michael Jackson persona (as a recording artist, performer, and actor) from the private Michael Jackson (personal life). You'll see that most GA and FA Biographical articles do this kind of organization, since really there are two narratives here, and the way they are intertwined now does not do service to the article. I am glad to see this article improving, and hope to see it reach GA status real soon. I am looking forward to changing my vote if this can improve. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WOW has this article gotten better in a short time. A few small things I spotted since the recent reorganization:
  • There is a [citation needed] tag next to a direct quote that needs resolving. We need a ref for that quote.
  • Consider splitting early life from the Jackson 5 section. Keep the Jackson 5 section on the music only and move the birth, early childhood, and relationship with his parents and religion to its own section under Personal Life. Also, all of that information, on his early life, is as yet unreferenced.
  • Not really required for GA, but consider a seperate bullet list section of "Awards and honors" listing major recording awards (AMAs, Grammys, etc) or important citations. The article could benefit from it.
  • Under the section "Music video and MTV" consider changing the opening sentance to say "Some say that Michael Jackson was the first to..." rather than just "Michael Jackson was the first to..." Unequivocal statements of greatness like this sentance implies that Wikipedia endorses that opinion wholeheartedly. Wikipedia does not endorse opinions (even widely held ones); it reports the opinions of others, and prose should reflect that. Look through the article for other places where this happens.
  • Consider a minor reorganization of the personal life section to gather the non-controversial sections (early life, marriages, and humanitarian work) at the beginning and the controversies (physical appearence, child molestation charges) at the end. More consistant narrative that way.
I know I am getting nit-picky here in some places, but since we are doing this, we might as well do it all the way. This article is doing SO much better. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A thorough list of issues, as I find them, is being compiled on the article's talk page. Regards, LaraLoveT/C 19:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Great job. It should be noted that an article of this length and comprehensiveness is really on the GA list in holding for FA status. It still needs work, but I highly recommend listing it at peer review and the League of Copyeditors to get more eyes on it and put some polish into it to get ready for eventual FA nomination. Its still rough around the edges, but I could easily see this being an FA some day in the future. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keane (film)

Result: Relisted at GAC by custodian before consensus. Votes were Endorse fail 2-0

User:The Giant Puffin has failed my article Keane (film) for GA status and i am not sure why? The reasons he gives do not seem valid reasons for failing a nomination for GA and they seem to be purely based on the subject matter not having lines and lines of trivia and non essential references. I have pasted his reasons and my respone below.

I have failed the article for GA status. My reasons are:

• The Giant Puffin • 12:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My Response


What is a good article?

A good article has the following attributes:

1. It is well written. In this respect:

(a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.[1]

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:

(a) provides references to sources used; (b) cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, preferably using inline citations for longer articles;[2][3] and (c) contains no original research.

3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:

(a) addresses the major aspects of the topic;[4] and (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).

4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.[5]

6. Any images it contains are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status. Non-free images must meet the criteria for fair use images and be labeled accordingly.

So, please could someone tell me exactly which of the reasons i was given for failing this article fit into any of the above guidelines? If I had been told it had failed because it was badly written or not neutral or anything that falls into the above then i would say thanks for reading it and giving some feedback and i would go away and try to fix it. But i feel that my article has been failed only because the subject does not have enough bloat to fill a few more lines with. I am confused Murphy Inc 14:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason for failing is that it is not comprehensive enough, and does not have a lot of information. Now I appreciate that it is a low budget film, and if there is no other information on the internet or in books, then fine. I apoligise if made it sound like the article was bad, because it isnt. If you truly cant find any more information to add, then thats fine. But at the moment, it looks like more general information could be added. The reason I suggested merging the two sections is because the release dates section isnt long. Again, thats not your fault, you can only have so much information about release dates. But, seeing as reaction is also to do with the film's release, it is possible to merge the two together. Its only a possibility. - • The Giant Puffin • 14:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There you go. As I said above, it appears that the article does meet the "broadness" requirement of GA (Criteria 3), so the initial reason for failure seems to be void; however the article is poorly written in places (Criteria 1) and has serious referencing problems (Criteria 2) and so should have been failed. Wrong reasoning, but ultimately the right result. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you help me then please to understand what is expected of a good article, some of the points made i agree with in places but other points seem to make no sense at all.

Not sure you read this section, i have just re-read and cannot see a single critique of their roles, the brief biog seems standard for many Good articles about films and is not referenced as each actor is linked and their own article has all the relevant information regarding previous roles. Unless I have missed something?
Again every single film article on wikipedia has unreferenced dates of release, this information is very hard to reference, and for an example see Jaws (film) a featured article no less.
I agree this needs rewriting, though i am not sure this could be called original research, the film does not answer any questions and this is fact. it is obvious from the film this is the case and i even referenced a quote from the director saying this was intentional.
I agree and i will rewrite

Thanks124.187.21.235 07:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anaximander

Result: Endorse fail 4-0. Status quo maintained

I believe this article meets the GA criteria. It was failed today for the following reason:

Talk:Anaximander#More_sources_-_GA_comments

Please add more sources. I just had a brief look at this. Many sentences are not sourced. Please source them and renominate this for GA. Thanks" --Aminz 05:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Citing Sources quoting the policy in Wikipedia:Verifiability states that "attribution is required for direct quotes and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." As best I can tell, any fact open to challenge in this article is sourced. Not every line has to be sourced. The GA standard is different from the FA standard, and while I am strongly supportive of sourcing (and have failed articles for weak or missing sources) I believe that this article should be listed. I ask that you review and list Anaximander. Argos'Dad 22:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you're familiar with this article, would you say the references given at the bottom cover most of the article? The problem with a lack of internal citation is that its quite impossible for a non-involved reviewer to know how much of an article is supposed to be referenced by the refs at the bottom and how much is OR just by looking at the article if there are no internal citations. By internal citations alone i'm sort of on the fence, but if the references below really do comprehensively cover this article, then i'd support it for GA status. Homestarmy 02:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not have much involvement with it before I nominated it, but I have done some work on this article and I do not see any OR in it. The sentences that are not sourced are not in doubt. The bulk of the article and any thing that sounds extraordinary is sourced. Argos'Dad 03:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail. The reviewer's comments are quite inadequate, as they give NO guidance for improving the article so it can be renominated, but I would have failed it for the same reason, and left the following list of sentances that require sourcing:

Thats a start. When interpretations of data are offered, a source for such interpretations are required. When superlative claims are made, sources for such claims are required. Both of these kinds of statements are easily challengable...--Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thanks you Jayron32 for these precisions. As a major editor to the article, I'm very familiar with the subject. I can assure that the references provided cover the article. I mainly used Marcel Conche's book, which provided all primary sources and some secondary sources, all listed in the references, and I second checked them all to ensure they were accurate. What sometimes seems like OR is usually Marcel Conche's analysis. I don't have the books at hand, but I will try to get them back so I can provide the exact secondary sources for the points mentioned above. However, as Argo's Dad suggests, the article is not in nomination for FA, but for GA. Sourcing every sentence is not necessary. — Robin des Bois ♘ ➳ ✉ 17:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I never said once that each sentance needed to be referenced. An article that sourced every single sentance would be resoundly rejected at FA as excessive anyways. Also, don't disparage GA as a somehow inferior process where standards should not be upheld. GA's standards of referencing are largely identical to FA. See and compare WP:WIAFA Criteria 1(c):"Factually accurate" means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately represent the related body of published knowledge. Claims are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this involves the provision of a "References" section in which sources are set out, complemented by inline citations for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged. and WP:WIAGA Criteria 2: It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:(a) provides references to sources used; (b) cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, preferably using inline citations for longer articles; and (c) contains no original research. Don't imply that GA reviewer should let things slide because well, "It's only GA". Our standards are real, even if different in some areas from FA.
Back to my point: where a superlative claim is made (So-and-so was the first to....) or where an obvious interpretation of data is done (It is believed that so-and-so did this because...), sources ARE needed because these statements are challengable.
Where an entire paragraph gives a straight set of facts from one source (So-and-so was born on XXXX to John and Jane Doe. He grew up in Anytown USA, where he attended Anytown State University and majored in Criminal Justice...) it is quite appropriate to reference the entire paragraph with a single reference.
Also, where an entire SECTION of the article is referenced to a SINGLE source, it may also be appropriate to simply indicated such in the reference section:
  • Personal Life: Doe, John (2002). Biography of Tom Jones Any University Press, ISBN: 12323454376
Professional Life: Smith, Jane (1975). Tom Jones: The Greatest Guy Ever Dick Williams Publishing, ISBN: 94509800
Still, which ever method of referencing is most appropriate for this article, anytime a statement makes a superlative claim or expresses an interpretation, it is likely subject to challenge and should be referenced to a specific location where such a claim or interpretation is made, either a specific webpage or page number(s) in a book.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Themistius, a 4th century Byzantine rhethorician, mentions that he was the "first of the known Greeks to publish a written document on nature" and by this very fact, his texts would be amongst the earliest written in prose, at least in the Western world. - All direct quotations, such as this one, need to be sourced. I saw several unsourced quotations in the article.
  • Primary sources should be used sparingly. An article that relies almost exclusively on primary sources for its citations appears to be original research (WP:NOR). Most citations should come from secondary sources because those sources are written by experts in the field who have experience interpreting Anaximander's text within its historical context. Almost every section lacks references to secondary sources. Readers can only assume that what is presented in the article is OR since no authority is given for these facts and interpretations. If the editors have indeed read the books in the "References" section they should find it easy to cite the claims they are making from secondary sources. WP:ATT
  • The lead is not a summary of the article. The "moon" tidbit, for example, is just sitting there, all alone, with no context and is not part of the article. WP:LEAD Awadewit Talk 07:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The direct quotation is of course sourced, to Themistius [and now has an explicit footnote 20:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)]; by implication as quoted by Conche. I see that this is another GA reviewer who has not read even the discussion above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Where is this footnote? The quote, as of this posting, remains unsourced. --LaraLoveT/C 06:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Footnote 2, which says "Themistius, Oratio (36, 317)"; the quotation has been made into a paraphrase. The formating here could be improved, and I will do so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Klee's measure problem

Result:Delisted by an individual Wikipedian (Geometry Guy)

This short article was reciently given a maths rating of start, indicating that there was considerable amount which could be added. As such it fails 3a, the article could also benefit from some illustrations so 6 is questionable. --Salix alba (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do think the article would benefit from an image of a union of rectangles, although more than this is certainly not required. I could add my voice to the votes here, but instead I am going to practise what I preach and take responsibility for delisting the article. If I do delist it (which I will do soon unless substantial improvements make the case for delisting unclear) then I will return here and archive this discussion. Geometry guy 16:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have now delisted the article. See Talk:Klee's measure problem for further details. I will archive this discussion once I figure out how to do that - or maybe one of the regulars can do it for me. Thanks Geometry guy 13:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1973 oil crisis

Result: Delist 3-0

Has several [citation needed] tags in the article, and some sections have no inline references at all. Promoted as GA in 2005, btw. Delist. -Malkinann 11:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist MrZaiustalk 13:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Little discussion of the developing world and the embargo's impact on countries outside of Western Europe and North America.
  • References - Several sections completely unreferenced - 12 references for ~16 sections, discounting refs/see also/ext links. Low frequency of refs for even the referenced sections.
  • OAPEC or OPEC? - Need expansion and clarification of leadup and which organizations took part and which countries tried to stay out of it, which non-members, if any, might have helped.
  • End of the embargo - Could use a clearer explanation of how/when/why the embargo ended.


Julius Caesar

Result: Delist 5-0

Nomination for delisting: I believe the article does NOT meet the GA requirements of referencing as found in WP:WIAGA. Of specific concern, the,many sections are ENTIRELY without references. These sections include:

It should be noted that the rest of the article is VERY well referenced. Since the article passed almost a year ago, this would lead me to two conclusions: The article was passed under a different set of GA standards, and as the standards have changed the article no longer qualifies as a GA, OR the unreferenced sections were added after the original well-referenced article was passed, making the article substandard. Either way, this article needs to be fixed or delisted.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

James F. Robinson

Result:6-0 list as GA

The Giant Puffin failed this article because it was not broad enough and suggested that additional images would help. Within half an hour, LuciferMorgan expressed concerns about that decision. As you can see on the article's talk page, I concur with LuciferMorgan's concerns that article length and lack of available sources may be the only reason for this article's failure of GA. I would like additional opinions. Thank you. Acdixon 13:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a lack of information and sources were the main reasons for failing the article. The article in itself is not very long. I agree that length is not a crucial factor in GA status, past a point. But it does not seem to cover a lot of his life. It does have a lot of information in his involvement in the civil war, but he must have done something else with his life. I know that information is often hard to find for people like this who lived hundreds of years ago, but what about other literary works or internet sources? Five sources is not a lot. If that is all that can be found after a lot of searching, then I hold my hands up to the decision being off. I'd happily see it passed as a GA article if this is all the information that can be found. What is there is very well written, but I just wasnt sure that this was all that could be found about James F Robinson - • The Giant Puffin • 14:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did some more searching and found one book at Google Books that allowed me to clarify some family information. I also found this short biography that explicitly states that Robinson shunned politics in favor of his career for most of his life. Apparently he was well-liked, but did very little else that was notable to any great degree. Acdixon 17:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Giant Puffin is actually correct in his reply / fail - I was merely stating that being short isn't relevant, and that it depends on the notability of the topic. He is correct in saying it's relative to what sources are available, and in doubting that the article doesn't use all the available sources he was correct in failing. If you can prove otherwise though that the article actually does use all the available sources per consensus, then fair enough and the decision will be overturned then per that consensus. LuciferMorgan 01:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how I would go about proving that I have consulted all available sources. I know I have done a Google search for both "James F. Robinson" and "James Fisher Robinson" and used pretty much everything I could find. I also work at a community college in Kentucky, and have searched our card catalog as well as that of the Kentucky Community and Technical College System for additional materials without success. Acdixon 13:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How long does this remain open before it's regarded as a consensus? Acdixon 13:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, at what seems to be a 6 to keep and 1 to delist discussion, it could be speedily kept right now, but I wasn't going to do it because I voted. Homestarmy 14:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it should be speedily kept... is that something that admins are expected to do or is it something that anybody can do? If the later, how do we do it?Balloonman 16:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The instructions are in the archives, normally someone who frequents GA/R archives things, it used to be just me, but nowadays other people jump in to do it for the most part. Homestarmy 17:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dani California

Result: 2 to Keep, 2 to Delist, 2 to relist at GAC, no consensus

It was failed due to a lack of fair use rationale in Image:Dani california.gif, but the rationale was added. Is the article able to pass now? igordebraga ≠ 18:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article should be renominated in order for it to pass. Zeus1234 18:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The original rationale for failing WAS correct, and so does not need to be reviewed here. The person who failed it was right to do so. If the fixes HAVE been made, then the article has changed siginficantly from what was reviewed, and should be resubmitted for another review. It should also be noted that it is NOT GA ready yet, since there is an unresolved [citation needed] tag that makes it fail referencing requirement (Criteria 2). --Jayron32|talk|contribs 19:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The GAC nominator also needs to review ((citeweb)). LuciferMorgan 17:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody's just come along and passed this, yet it doesn't even use ((citeweb)) and has an embedded link which commits a copyright violation. (Done and Removed NSR77 (Talk|Contribs) 22:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)) LuciferMorgan 21:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it need citeweb, and which link is in violation? Homestarmy 21:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it need citeweb? Because everyone else who's got GA has worked their ass off by adding citeweb, so why should this one be an exception? The violation is under "Reception and criticism", and if the editor was actually as thorough as he should've been he would've spotted this. The line says; "(The two songs are compared here [13].", and the embedded link is to an mp3 file with no proof that the copyright holders of both songs have given the site permission to do this. LuciferMorgan 23:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've just never seen the necessity of citeweb before is all, it was my understanding that even lowely external links were acceptable for internal citations in regards to GA status. Homestarmy 23:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While that may be true, consistent referencing style IS required. Once the article has an established referencing style (be it links, footnotes, or parentheticals) further additions should be referenced in the same way. Since other refs us the citeweb template, the fact that there are some that do not (and even to a questionably copyvio song file at that) should raise concern.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, well, I didn't see that it wasn't in a consistent style :/. However, back to this review, Zeus is probably right, the article should be re-nominated for GA status. Homestarmy 04:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But someone's already passed this and shouldn't have.... LuciferMorgan 12:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You know, looking at WIAGA, it looks like a consistant referencing style is just highly recommended... Homestarmy 23:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Citation templates are unnecessary. As long as the references are in a consistent format it doesn't matter if its done using templates or manually. See Michael Jordan, Toronto Raptors, and Tourette syndrome for FAs with correctly formated referencing done manually. Quadzilla99 17:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lawrence Taylor is another good example, although thats just a GA and not an FA yet. Quadzilla99 17:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The template improves verifiability - for example, retrieval dates indicate when the article was retrieved, and if the article link goes dead it can be retrieved using the Wayback Machine. Also, the name of the magazine / source and author helps other editors make a judgment on whether the source used is WP:RS. Of course the template was a recommendation, and other templates offer the same resource. Criterion 2. of GA criteria says "It is factually accurate and verifiable", and in using retrieval dates etc. I feel this goes to further satisfy that criterion. As concerns ownership, that's total rubbish since I don't even bother to edit RHCP articles. As concerns disruptive editing, I don't wish to reply to that other than saying it's simply untrue. LuciferMorgan 01:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Teemu08 06:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Phineas Gage

Result: 3 to 1, delist

There's really very few citations in this article at all. One specific uncited piece of information is shown here. Lack of citations is why I think that GA status should be removed from this article -- while there are sufficient sources listed at the end, the information in the article itself is not sufficiently tagged with citations (as it is in an article such as Electroconvulsive Therapy: if you compare the quality of citations in the two articles and consider the extremely high standards that a "good article" is expected to meet, then it's a wonder why Phineas' article has GA status and the ECT article does not). --24.199.103.240 16:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added one of the links at the botton as a citation for that piece of information; since it talked about the topic.Apart from that I think that you can´t really compare a topic like electroconvulsive therapy to the biography of a person like Phineas Gage: I believe the article has the most important books and journal papers talking about Phineas Gage as bibliography. Of course it doesn´t have as many as electroconvulsive theraphy since the information written about this topic is very small while there are journal dedicated only to electroconvulsive... and the fact that is shorter doesn't mean is not good. --Garrondo 17:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A question of style: when you cite a journal article the pages should not be included since they are not usually longer than 10 pages. That applies to this two citings

^ Harlow, J.M. (1848). "Passage of an iron rod through the head". Boston Medical and Surgical Journal 39: 389-393. (Republished in Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience., 11, 281-283) pp.2 of the republished edition. ^ Harlow, J.M. (1848). "Passage of an iron rod through the head". Boston Medical and Surgical Journal 39: 389-393. (Republished in Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience., 11, 281-283) pp.3 of the republished edition.

(and even if they were included the page numbering should be the one of the journal being page 2 page 282 and page 3 383 of the republished article)--Garrondo 09:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the page numbers, but I guess we'll have to wait on someone else to see if we really need the page reference for the (3 page long in the reprint) journal article. Can you shed any light on where the quote from Harlow comes from, (it's not in the paper that's cited) and which page the quote from Antonio Damasio's book comes from? Do you have access to some of Macmillan's works on Gage? This passage makes me a bit uneasy: "It was Harlow's account from 1868, eight years after Gage's death, that introduced the now-textbook changes.[citation needed] Later writers began to embellish even more,[attribution needed] adding drunkenness, braggadocio, a vainglorious tendency to show off his wound as part of Barnum's Traveling Exhibition and an utter lack of foresight — all unmentioned by Harlow.[8][9]" The citations are only to Harlow's earlier work, so you can't really see who the other people are, or what Harlow said later on. Thanks.-Malkinann 10:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: As someone who has actually checked journal references, I will add that page numbers, when available, are somewhat helpful in online journals, and irreplacable in hard copy journals. Often they are the only determinant which physical issue the paper is in. (You often don't need to specify page within the article - although that can be helpful; but the range of pages which make up the article is part of standard scholarly convention and should be left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the specific page reference (Doe, J (2032) "Article title" such and such a journal, pages 281-283, and page 282 of this article) was what Garrondo was questioning. Perhaps I was getting a bit overeager by citing the page numbers of the sources that I can get my grubby mitts on. But as Damasio's book is substantially longer than your average journal article, we should get a page reference for that, even if it's in a foreign-language edition.-Malkinann 13:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did refer to the saying twice the page. I think the correct thing to do would be to only cite once the text and link the different citings to that only reference. I´ve seen some pages that do it with letters but I don´t know how to do it. Does anybody know? --Garrondo 15:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've done the dual citing, but there are still other problems with the referencing (worst perhaps is that the long quote in "Effect on Gage" isn't in the source it says it is) to be fixed.-Malkinann 15:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to get the original 3 papers from people that had direct contact with Gage. The 2 from Dr Harlow and the one from Bigelow. I now that the 3 of them appear in McMillans book; but I dont have access to it. Does anybody have it? I have the first report from Dr. Harlow; but not the original second report; 20 years after the accident. However what I have found is an article in which the 2 most cited pages of this second report appear as an appendix. (If anybody wants it: Kotowicz Z (2007);"The strange case of Phineas gage" History of the Human Sciences 20(1) 115-131). Whith it I can confirm that the long quote in "effect on gage" is from this second article. I procced to change it.--Garrondo 16:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Damasio quote: Gage's story "was the historical beginnings of the study of the biological basis of behavior" I'm reading the chapters from the book and I can´t find it although there are similar ones. --Garrondo 16:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I say is almost sure that the citation is from the 1968 text of Dr. Harlow; I tried to change it but I couldn´t do the thing of the letters so not to have twice the same citation. Can anybody fix it?--Garrondo 11:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Result: 6-1 delist

Nomination for delisting: This article currently fails wikipedia GA criteria - WP:WIAGA especially on point 2. There are numerous missing references, many citation request tags and above all an entire section which is under dispute and requires cleanup. The article is on the whole written to a good standard but at present I do not think it meets GA. LordHarris 23:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would be very easy to source and cite everything to bring this up to scratch. Someone more invested should do it because it is a decently written article

Chocolate

Result: no consensus to delist, and possibly a recent (9 June) consensus to keep due to article improvement; no further comments for over a week since then.

Delist recommendation based on the following issues:

There may be more, but that's what I noticed from scanning the article. LaraLoveT/C 06:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a remaining GA issue: ideally, the "Chocolate in popular culture" section should be replaced by a section on "Chocolate in society" which elaborates on the final paragraph of the lead. However, if this section (and the corresponding lead paragraph) were deleted, then the article, while not comprehensive, would still have the coverage needed for GA. Yet, I'm reluctant to delete content, and potential for improvement, just to pass some tick boxes: GAs should have potential for improvement, shouldn't they?
The most compelling reason I can think of for delisting this one is that it provides a torment for those who love chocolate, but don't have any immediately available :) Geometry guy 19:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
CommentsThis article is getting much better.
  • The "unreferenced" banners can be removed: These sections look appropriately referenced now.
  • I agree that in the form it is in, the Pop Cultue section needs to go. It is a trivia section in disguise. If it can be prosified (turned from list into writing) it may make a better section, but as it stands now it is a black mark on this article.
  • And with regard to the external link in the article: In every case, the external links belong somewhere other than the main text: In the case of this one: "(2007P-0085, Copy of 2007P-0085 Appendix C -- search for cacao)" it's a reference and would be better served set off with ref tags. Also this one: "Archer Daniels Midland, are lobbying the FDA to change " contains an external link that would be better served as a reference, with a footnote at the end of the sentance. That is the purpose BOTH of the external links are serving; they are there to back up statements made in the article, thus are references, and thus belong with the other references. Consistant referencing style IS a requirement of WIAGA.
    • References (including external links) can be made in the text. There is no requirement that they should be footnotes (aka ref tags). If you disagree, please educate me in wikipolicy with a link! Please also point me to a link which explains the extent to which consistent referencing style is a requirement of WIAGA. Thanks. Geometry guy 23:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • "It is highly recommended that the article have a consistent style of footnoting" from footnote 2. Also, from WP:CITE "Please follow the style used by the article's existing citations". Look, if it is important to you to have an article that is not as good as it could possibly be, just so you can feel that your one particular interpretation of WIAGA can be right, go ahead. These external links are making the article less than perfect, and it is an easy fix. I am sorry that mediocrity is OK with you, but I am in the interest of making every article at wikipedia better. Poor quality is never "good enough" especially when the fix is easy. Look, I fixed it myself, and it now looks much better. I don't really understand what the insistence is on refusing to improve articles. It just flabbergasts me.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:57, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that. I didn't realise you were asking for such an easy fix as I thought you would have fixed it immediately (instead of complaining about it) in that case. I'm not interested in mediocrity either, but perfection can only be attained in stages and if an article needs to be so close to FA standard to achieve GA, then GA loses a lot of its value as a stepping stone.
In case you think I'm not interested in making articles better, check the edit history of this article. I was not involved in the article before it came to GA/R (so I am not a "custodian"), but I noticed it was close to GA standard, and so I have improved it quite a bit as part of this review, by fixing the lead, finding a tricky citation, removing trivia and eliminating some OR. So I don't understand how you can be "flabbergasted" by my "insistence on refusing to improve articles": I've improved the article far more substantially than you have. I hope you will reconsider the accuracy of your accusation and apologise if you feel you were in error. Geometry guy 09:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I was not AGFing there. I should have. Please accept my humble apology for that. Lately, there has been a lot of contention at this project by MANY people who feel that since this is NOT FA, it is OK to ignore any suggested improvements to an article with "This ain't FA, so I don't have to fix anything". Many of us here spend a LONG time reading and carefully critiquing articles, and to have our suggestions summarily ignored or rejected with throw away statements like "I don't see that fix being expressly required by the standards page so I am not going to fix it" misses the point. We are working hard to find inadequacies in the articles, and trying to list specific problems that are actionable and that we honestly think will make the articles better. That is my primary goal, not some blank adherance to a set of standards. When someone says "It isn't in WIAGA so I don't have to do it" it's like saying to me "The time you spent reviewing this article isn't worth it because I am not looking for ways to improve the article, I just want that little green plus..." I understand that is not what you were after now. Thanks for all your help in improving the article, and as you should note, I did change my vote to support. This is REALLY getting close to FA. Taking it to peer review is a good next step. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Jayron, I really appreciated you taking the time to reply to my comment, and for explaining where you are coming from: I can understand your frustration with the "I just want the little green plus" attitude! As for this article, a peer review for it has just closed, with very few comments, unfortunately. As I mentioned above, I think the main "gap" is some material on chocolate in society. Geometry guy 09:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The history section could stand to have each paragraph properly referenced.
  • Ref 5 is a plain wikilink. Please expand this to full bibliographic information. Either do it manually or use a template like cite web as you prefer, but it needs to include full information like author, title, work, publication info, etc.
For the record, the fixes this needs now are small, and if the above three fixes are made, I would support this remaining a GA, and change my vote.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 20:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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