- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 23 April 2022 [1].
- Nominator(s): (t · c) buidhe 18:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article went through a thorough GAN by Hog Farm and an ACR with comments from CPA-5, Nick-D, Catlemur, and Gog the Mild, and a copyedit by Twofingered Typist, all of which are much appreciated. I subsequently expanded the article from a couple newly published sources, and I think it's ready for FAC. (t · c) buidhe 18:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- Suggest scaling up the first two maps, and see MOS:COLOUR
- Some of the captions include claims that warrant citing
- File:Prisoners_sorting_confiscated_property_at_Auschwitz_II-Birkenau.jpg: the description indicates author is unknown, but the source credits authors? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:34, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Scaled up maps. All info in captions should be cited already in the article or image description page. The photographers of the Auschwitz Album are unknown, but there are some theories. The museum puts down two of the hypothesized photographers, but I think it's fine to say "unknown". Thanks for the review! (t · c) buidhe 03:42, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The Jewish community reported that 12,898 Jews fought for Greece in the war; 613 died and 3,743 were wounded There wouldn't happen to be any unique info on what happened to Greek Jewish POWs, would there?
- All the Greek soldiers including Jews were released after a month. (Bowman 41) Should this be mentioned in the article? I didn't think so because the treatment of Jews appears exactly the same to Orthodox Greeks.
- Something to the effect that they weren't treated differently at this stage would be nice.
- The collaborationist Greek government began to see Bulgaria as the main threat and did all it could to secure German support in restraining Bulgaria. From annexing its territory?
- Pretty much, clarified based on the source
- some went mad Is there a better medical term for this?
- All the source says is, "Several people went mad along the way, and virtually no one was able to stand up on arrival"
- but there is no record of him taking action to prevent the deportations, except two letters of protest written after they had already begun. Is it known on what grounds the Greek authorities protested? That the Jews were Greek citizens? It's curious considering the PMs previous comments about solving the "Jewish problem".
- The "Jewish problem" comments were from Logothetopoulos' predecessor. The cited source says that the letters were an example of Greek collaborators hedging their bets and continuing to collaborate while creating exonerating evidence in case of an Allied victory. Source does not elaborate on the content.
- By June 1944, 850 Jews had escaped to Çeşme, despite obstruction from British intelligence. The f was Britain doing obstructing refugees fleeing from an Axis-occupied ally to a neutral nation?
- It was part of their attempt to reduce the number of Jews arriving in Palestine, since the Turkish government was not admitting Jewish refugees but merely allowing them to pass through on the way to the Levant. Nevertheless, these efforts do not seem to have a significant effect and explaining them would take WP:UNDUE space, so I removed this bit.
- All of mainland Greece was recaptured from Axis occupation by November 1944. Recaptured? I'm having trouble finding info here but it seems the Germans mostly withdrew so they could go fight the Soviets on the Eastern Front.
- True, the source is not completely clear on this point. Reworded.
- In Salonica, Jewish camp survivors were often called "unused cakes of soap". Yikes. No further comment.
- Jews found themselves sleeping in improvised shelters Who established and managed these shelters, the Greek government?
- No, the source specifically says that the government did nothing and the survivors had to improvise for themselves. Clarified
- Holocaust denial is illegal in Greece since when?
- After looking at some sources it seems that there is no law against Holocaust denial in particular, although it has sometimes been prosecuted under racial hatred laws with limited success. Rewrote accordingly.
- The Holocaust was obviously an event which focused on Jews, but is it known what happened to other marginalized groups? For example, the article on the Porajmos suggests few to no Roma people were killed in Greece.
- I've tried to integrate the related ethnic violence (e.g. against Chams or Macedonians), but the Romani people are unmentioned in the sources.
-Indy beetle (talk) 20:55, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks so much for your review! (t · c) buidhe 01:15, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Storage building owned by the Voliotis family in the village of Lachonia near Pelion, where members of the Hakim family lived and hid during the Nazi occupation This caption is too long for addressing a subject not specifically mentioned in the article. Technically, it doesn't even suggest why the Hakim family was hiding. Could be shortened to the effect of "Storage building in Lachonia where Jews lived in hiding during occupation" or something of the sort. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. (t · c) buidhe 03:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure what you've seen, but this book argues a very clear connection between German attempts to control inflation in Greece and the dispossession and deportation of Jews. You mentioned the confiscated gold, but I wonder if something is missing here. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:16, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of Aly's conclusions have been controversial (his heavy emphasis on economic aspects to the exclusion of other factors), and Kavala says that many aspects of the property confiscation haven't been adequately researched yet—so I'm hesitant to be too conclusive. She never suggests that the fight against inflation was the cause of the deportation. (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Source review—pass[edit]
The article relies almost entirely on appropriate scholarship for the subject at hand, with well-published books and peer-reviewed journal article making up the source material. The few instances where this is not the case are citations to appropriate mainstream media outlets and nonprofit memorial organizations.
- The pagination for Droumpouki, Anna Maria (2016). "Shaping Holocaust memory in Greece: memorials and their public history" appears to be incorrect.
- The version I accessed starts at page 1.
- I've corrected this issue; however, I've removed/changed some of the cities listed for places with monuments, since this does not appear to be supported by the source.
- Spotchecks on this version
- Ref 18 does not appear to support the second half of this statement: some 72,000 to 77,000 Jews lived in 27 communities in Greece—the majority in Salonica. It says the majority were Saphardic, but not that they lived in Salonica.
- "Despite the lack of credible statistics, a generally acknowledged number for the prewar Greek Jewish population is between 72,000 and 77,000, with the Jews from the Dodecanese included, albeit as Italian citizens. Some 50,000 of them resided in Thessaloniki." The rest is WP:CALC
- Ah, did not realize that Thessaloniki was Salonica. All good then.
- Ref 32 good
- Ref 70 good, but might be worth appending the footnote used in the source material to the citation as well, since that explicitly mentions the diary
- Ref 114 good
- Ref 184 good
- Ref 199 good
- The Antoniou & Moses 2018 "Introduction" chapter seems to have some good info on the development of Holocaust historiography for Greece, which seems to be missing from the article.
- Added a bit more about this
-Indy beetle (talk) 15:12, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure about the sentence you added at the end of the article. The book is about the Balkans generally not Greece specifically. I think it could be misleading as the other events in the Balkans sometimes viewed as genocides did not occur in Greece, eg. the genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia, and I've never heard of any other wwii greece events being called genocides. (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Will review over the following days. Constantine ✍ 17:56, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Have made various tweaks and copyedits to save time. Feel free to revert/discuss.
- Have removed a few MOS:DUPLINKs.
- While Eastern Orthodoxy was and remains the state religion in Greece, legally at least Greece was among the first European countries to lift restrictions on the Jews and accord them legal equality with the Christian majority. This happened already in 1830, IMS.
- As far as I can tell, Fleming doesn't mention this in her book. According to this source it was in 1844, but I'm still not sure if it would be WP:DUE to mention.
- Can we add that Salonica was at one point known as "New Jerusalem"?
- The Jewish community reported that 12,898 Jews fought for Greece in the war; 613 died and 3,743 were wounded a) can we have a reference right here, for these numbers? b) which Jewish community?
- This is from Bowman who states, "Jewish community figures record the mobilization of 12,898 Jews. Whereas the total population of Jews in Greece was about 75,000, this estimate should be treated with caution. However, given that some 9,000 Jewish males of Salonika of conscription age (fifteen to forty-five) were to report to Plateia Eleftherias (Liberty Square) in July 1942 for registration in Nazi forced-labor gangs, the figure does not seem impossible, if we recall that able-bodied males who had served in 1919 were called up in the later stages of the fighting against Italy. Greek Jewry still commemorates the loss of 613 dead and 3,743 wounded, a 34 percent casualty rate, nearly three times more than the overall 12 percent Greek casualty rate." The notes section does not provide further information about exactly where this "Jewish community" estimate comes from. (t · c) buidhe 08:08, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- no protests from Greek diplomats are known Greece was a country under military occupation, and de jure and de facto not under control of its foreign policy. The collaborationist regime had no foreign ministry or accredited representatives in other countries, all Greek embassies that survived belonged to the government in exile. Indeed, I am very doubtful that there were Greek diplomats at all in France at the time. Of course, the Greek collaborationist government could have protested, but for the reasons already mentioned, this did not happen (and all other German-influenced governments more or less followed the same policy). To avoid misunderstandings, I'd suggest striking this.
- I believe the cited source is referring the Greek government in exile, although I'm struggling to independently confirm that the Vichy government had diplomatic relationship with the Greek government in exile. Specifically, Kerem states: "Cases of Jewish Greek subjects in France who were endangered with deportation were brought to the attention of the Greek diplomatic corps there, but Greek diplomats are not known to have taken activist positions on behalf of their Jewish subjects. The Greek Jews in Paris, Lyons and Marseilles were victims of special deportations initially in July 1942 and then mostly in November 1942. Nevertheless, the diplomats representing their country were not known to have pressured the Vichy and German forces in France on their behalf". However, I've removed as it could be an unimportant point. (t · c) buidhe 08:08, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- most could not can some brief explanation be given why not?
- Source doesn't say. I added information about hostages used to prevent escapes. It's also the case that the factors that facilitated escapes in other places did not exist in Salonica, but I wasn't able to find sources explicitly making this connection.
- often called "unused cakes of soap" I assume by the local Christian Greeks?
- The Greek government avoided prosecuting collaborators this was largely due to the outbreak of the Greek Civil War, where the collaborationists joined the military and security forces of the right-wing governments. This is partly mentioned later on, but it should be brought up earlier for context. Liberation from the Nazis did not mean return of normality to Greece.
- Reordered to provide context
- annulled the Aryanization law the term 'Aryanization' should be introduced and linked when the law is first mentioned.
- Otherwise a very well written, concise, and necessary article. Constantine ✍ 17:08, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks so much for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 08:08, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Cplakidas: - No compulsion to go either way, but do you feel comfortable supporting or opposing here yet? Hog Farm Talk 21:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Buidhe and Hog Farm: sorry for the delay. I am satisfied with the changes/responses, and ready to support. As said before, a fine article. Constantine ✍ 12:41, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Gog the Mild[edit]
I looked at this at ACR but using the FAC criteria and it seemed good then. I will recuse and see what further I can pick at.
- "originally native to Greece". Do we need "originally"? I mean, could they have been non-originally native to Greece?
- "The Greek islands, especially Corfu, Rhodes, and Crete, were home to both Sephardic and Romaniote communities under Venetian rule or influence such that many Jews from these islands spoke Italian." This reads as if they were still under Venetian rule.
- "Before the Balkan Wars". Which happened when?
- This is introduced a couple bullets up. Would more clarification be helpful?
- I missed that. If it were me I would write 'Before 1912–1913', but that's just a personal style preference, so feel free to leave it as is.
- "In June 1943, parts of eastern Macedonia switched from the German to Bulgarian control." Perhaps preface with 'Despite this,'?
- I think this may be straying close to OR because the source does not suggest the handover had anything to do with Greek collaboration
- "Greek Jews living in Paris, Lyons, and Marseilles were deported in 1942 to Auschwitz concentration camp during the Holocaust in France". Any idea as to the number?
- "irregularly looted". What does this mean? Is there regular looting?
- I was thinking that regular looting—by the state, irregular looting—by private citizens without the approval of the state. But clarified
- "Jews filled the area at a time". Is "filled" the best word? 'occupied', 'were billeted in' or whatever?
- Why no definite articles in front of LAS, EDES, EAM etc?
- It reads more correct to me that way. Maybe an ENGVAR issue?
- Must be. Each time you miss a "the" it jars as I read it, it comes across as pidgin English. But if it works in USVAR, so be it.
- "EAM refused to help Jews if it did not receive payment for the operation." Optional: delete "the operation".
- "Skeptical that Jews had a future in southeastern Europe, the JDC prioritized aid for those in transit to Palestine." I don't understand this. Does it mean 'Skeptical that Jews had a future in southeastern Europe, the JDC prioritized aid for those from this area who wished to transit to Palestine'?
That's all I have. An excellent article. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:01, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks so much for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 23:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Great work. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Non-expert prose review.
- Optional: In Background, four different types of Jewish people are listed in bullet points. In the sentence preceding this, there can be a colon to signify that a list is coming up, so it reads, "The prewar Jewish communities of southern, western, and northern Greece each had a different history:"
- "while others fled to the Ottoman Empire, because of suspicion that they opposed the Greek insurgents." Remove this comma
- "either allow Italian troops to occupy Greece or else war." -> "either allow Italian troops to occupy Greece or else Italy would declare war on Greece."?
- " that hundreds of Jews lost their lives." -> " that hundreds of Jews died." per MOS:EUPH, died is more direct.
- "trying to wrest from them for years." -> "trying to obtain from them for years." I think this sounds more neutral.
- Optional: "The municipality of Salonica destroyed the cemetery beginning in December 1942. The city and the Greek Orthodox Church used many of the tombstones for construction." Maybe combine these sentence into, "The municipality of Salonica destroyed the cemetery beginning in December 1942, and the city and the Greek Orthodox Church used many of the tombstones for construction."
- "£300 sterling," Do other currencies use this symbol? If not, I don't think it's necessary to specify sterling.
- "the prospect of Allied victory led the collaborationist Greek leadership to hedge their bets," hedge their bets feels a little too MOS:IDIOM to me. Perhaps just go straight into "the prospect of Allied victory led the collaborationist Greek leadership to continue cooperating with the Germans"
- "Both the collaborationist administration and postwar governments used the war as an opportunity to Hellenize northern Greece, the same area, from Corfu to the Turkish border, that was most deadly for Jews during the Holocaust." I'm not sure what this is trying to say. Is "the same area" supposed to be there?
- "Bulgarian authorities saw the removal of non-Bulgarian ethnic groups including Jews and Greeks as a necessary step in making room for Bulgarian settlers." -> "Bulgarian authorities saw the removal of non-Bulgarian ethnic groups, including Jews and Greeks, as a necessary step in making room for Bulgarian settlers." Added some commas
- "those who registered with the authorities came from the lower classes in society, and lacked the financial resources to do so." -> "those who registered with the authorities came from the lower classes in society, and lacked the financial resources to flee."
- "was the last straw that drove them to leave the country." Concerned about MOS:IDIOM. Perhaps, "caused them to leave the country."
- I removed the sentence because the proposed rewrite changes the meaning. Fleming doesn't say that Jews left solely because of the draft but combined with other reasons.
Those are my thoughts. Please ping when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 01:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks so much for your review! (t · c) buidhe 12:32, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support my concerns have been addressed. Z1720 (talk) 14:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Request for the coordinators[edit]
@FAC coordinators: since I now have 3 supports, SR and IR, could I make another nomination? (t · c) buidhe 12:45, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- You may. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.