- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 15 August 2023 [1].
- Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is my third FAC on a college president, though this time I'm moving away from Centre College to South Carolina's Anderson University and its fifth president, Annie Dove Denmark. The first woman to be president of a South Carolina college or university (except actually not; click the link to learn more!), she transformed Anderson from a four-year women's college to a two-year co-ed junior college and worked to bring the school's large sum of debt (over a million dollars in today's money) down to zero in around eight years. She created Anderson's "Founders Day" to mark the date of her inauguration, and the school still celebrates the holiday to this day. She resigned in 1953 and her 25-year presidency still stands as the longest in Anderson's history.
Thanks for bringing this article about a woman to FAC! It reads pretty good, I have some minor prose comments:
- "noted as a "gifted student"" - by whom?
- "now Meredith College," - seems to me you could chop that clause, making the sentence easier to parse since in the next paragraph you have "which changed its name to Meredith College the year after she graduated"
- or indeed use the "—now Campbell University—" format you use in the next section
- I took your first suggestion, I've removed that since the second reference to Meredith was so close. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "received a net monthly salary of $36 (equivalent to $1,173 in 2022) in this position, being paid a total of $45 (equivalent to $1,466 in 2022) monthly and spending $9 (equivalent to $293 in 2022) on board" - bit of a nitpick this one but I'd suggest using the "r=" parameter to round up $1,173 and $1,466
- and same for later figures
- Done, I tried to match the specificity of the source value with how closely I rounded the inflation equivalent - if you see anything that you'd recommend adjusting further let me know. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this one is pretty subjective so I'll leave it to see what others think - and it wouldn't affect my support in any case Mujinga (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "After her return to New York, she moved to Murfreesboro, Tennessee" - "She then moved to Murfreesboro, Tennessee" ?
- "Clemson president" - "Clemson University president"?
- "As the school entered the 1930s and the onset of the Great Depression" - can you enter an onset?
- "largely a result of the G.I. Bill," - "and largely a result of the G.I. Bill," ?
- Actually, I think I missed a word after that, since the GI Bill was responsible for the uptick in veteran enrollment. Changed to "...the G.I. Bill, and the school enrolled a record..." PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "In 1944, she worked with other school administration worked to implement an honor code for the college under which students would be tried by their classmates" 2xworked
- Good catch, removed. I also took out "other" as I found that word to be unnecessary. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "At a meeting of the Board of Trustees on April 23, 1952, Denmark announced her resignation [...] surprised by this request and did not accept her resignation until the conclusion of the meeting, when she insisted that they do so" - I think you could say a bit a more (based on her letter of resignation) about why she decided to leave at that point - it seems to be factors like lack of debt and good future prospects
- Added in the paragraph below the block quote - I also found a typo in the quote itself so that's been fixed too. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "elected her president emeritus for life" - is "for life" redundant here?
- "left no immediate family following her death." - "following her death" seems redundant?
@Mujinga: Thanks very much for taking the time to leave comments - I have addressed everything above! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Nice work, happy to support on prose Mujinga (talk) 13:18, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the copy edits are quasi-stylistic, so feel free to disregard
- For the sake of readability, I might break off "A talented musician in her youth..." as a second lead paragraph. And then use Denmark instead of "she" or "her" as appropriate.
- For concision's sake: "as the instructor of piano" --> "as the piano instructor".
- "with the Board" -- Should "board" be capitalized?
- I'm not quite sure, and I've gone back and forth in several articles as to whether to capitalize it or not, but I think it should be lowercase when "board" is on its own so I've changed that. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endowment is linked twice
- "and it was brought before" -- a comma is needed before 'and' as it is followed by an independent clause
- "as it admitted its first male students in 1931" --> "admitting its first male students in 1931" for concision
- "which was put to use in modernizing some of the campus's buildings" --> "which was used to modernize some of the campus's buildings"
- "such as the possession of alcohol" --> "such as alcohol possession"
- "As of 2023, Her 25-year presidency"
That's all I got. Nice work. ~ HAL333 19:42, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @HAL333 Thank you very much for the review - I have taken care of all of your comments! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Happy to support. ~ HAL333 00:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SUPPORT from SusunW[edit]
Interesting article on an interesting subject. Thank you for your work on her. Most of my comments have to do with grammar use. Please ping me when you are ready for me to look again as I am extremely busy and may not respond timely otherwise. SusunW (talk) 17:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No need to list both parents surname as Denmark. The use of née clearly indicates they had the same surname and it's redundant to list it 3 times in the same sentence.
- I tried to make this sound better and settled on switching the order of the mother and father and taking Denmark off of the mother's name. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "Deacon in the town"... I think this implies that this is a civic office, but according to the source, p 58 he was a founder of Second Baptist Church, superintendent of the church's Sunday School and a deacon. I think it makes more sense to end the sentence at alderman and make a new sentence describing his church work.
- I added the sentence break a little earlier and made "In addition" the beginning of a new sentence with church info. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Willis and Emma? Was she known as Emma (and if so it should be Emma throughout) or should this be Sara throughout?
- "She was raised" implies this refers to Clarissa or Sara as those are the subjects of the previous sentence, but I think you are speaking of Annie?
- How does one have ties to one's schooling? I think this rather long sentence should separate church and school ending at church. Then insert "She" before was recalled as a “gifted student” in music… (noted should be avoided per MOS) by the Anderson historian Hubert Hester.
- I have trimmed this sentence down by taking out the "ties to her schooling" bit, though I'd prefer to keep the sentence together as it currently is, since her playing organ at her church (and her talent in music) is related to her having ties to church. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks better and prose is tighter.
- What is Anderson? A place, i.e. Anderson, South Carolina or the school, Anderson University (South Carolina). As this is the first mention of it, it should be linked here and not elsewhere.
- link Baptist University for Women
- "the year after she graduated" has not introduced a noun in the new ¶ to be replaced by the pronoun she and capitalization is wrong, i.e. “graduated,[9] She”. Suggest you replace 1st she by Denmark and make 2nd she lower case.
- Depending on your answer to the Anderson question above, if Anderson was the town, you need to use Anderson University after dean of music and link it if it is the first use.
- This one also refers to the school, so I haven't added the link here. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "She gave her graduating piano recital", appears to indicate Cronkhite, but I think you mean Denmark.
- "She received a net" follows discussion of Bessie Campbell, so you need to clarify this is Denmark. I am a bit confused by the sentence overall. Are you saying that she was paid $45 per month, which was reduced by $9 for her board, thus netting $36 monthly?
- Changed pronoun to "Denmark", and yes that is the correct interpretation. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see that it says Denmark received?
- Tennessee College for Women appears to be a notable school per our guidelines and should probably be redlinked.
- Per MOS:DOCTOR, the various titles of Dr. should be removed.
- Euphemia McClintock appears to be notable per our guidelines and should probably be redlinked.
- "She was formally inaugurated" follows a sentence about McClintock, thus you need to specify that you are speaking of Denmark.
- "She inherited" follows a sentence talking about Gladys Johnston and should clarify it is about Denmark.
- "pledging a gift" isn't clear who is pledging. Per the source, she made the pledge, so clarify "pledging her own gift".
- I think it's fairly clear that she was the one pledging the gift; the sentence said that she spoke at the board meeting, concluded the speech with the given quote, and then pledged the money. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Not a problem unless other editors weigh in.
- "—one that was" follows afternoon, but should instead follow tornado. Perhaps "canceled after the city of Anderson was struck that afternoon by an F2 tornado—"
- "On her final day as president" has not introduced a noun in the new ¶ to be replaced by the pronoun her, use Denmark’s.
- "Furman University conferred upon her" has not introduced a noun in the new ¶ to be replaced by the pronoun her, use Denmark.
@SusunW: Thank you for the review - I have taken care of most of your comments as recommended and there are a couple more responses above! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Changes look fine with the one exception noted above, where talking about Denmark's pay. I am happy to support on prose, pending that one item. Good luck with the nomination! SusunW (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @SusunW Oops, I marked that as done without actually changing it. That's been fixed now. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:19, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- It happens, we're human. Happy to support. SusunW (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Image and source review[edit]
Image use, ALT text and licencing seem OK to me. Reviewing this version, spot-check only upon request. Why does the first book not mention the author(s)? Some other sources like #53 might warrant bylines. I notice that a lot of the sources are old and/or affiliated with the Anderson College. #59 what kind of source is this? #61 worries me a little when it says on Historical Marker Database it's "crowdsourced". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus Thanks for giving this a look! I'm honestly not sure why I left the author off of the first book citation, but I've added that and amended the sfn template which references it to add the author's name. I can definitely add a byline to FN 53, but all that's given (as far as I can tell) in the newspaper is "From Staff, Wire Reports". FN 59 is a letter written by
Denmark's successorthe president that came two after Denmark, sent to her - all I sourced from this was the fact that she got a certificate of service at that year's commencement, which is the subject of the letter. I found existing citations to replace FN 61, so that's been removed altogether.
- You're right in that some of the references are old and affiliated with Anderson. I used Anderson's library's website, which has quite a good repository of information and sources about Denmark, for some information, and the most-used book source, Hester 1969, proved to be an invaluable resource as it is the most complete source of information on Anderson's history as a college that I could find, and in my experience such a book being published by the college itself is not unusual (in both of my FAs, which are also about college presidents, this is the case) nor unreliable. As for "old" sources, I tried to use contemporary newspaper sources as best I could and I suppose the book having been published 54 years ago doesn't help a ton with that argument. Happy to answer any other questions you have! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, then. With the caveat that I don't know much about the topic, though, and that I didn't do a spot-check. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update; since Gog the Mild asked for a text-source integrity spot-check, I'll do one as well on this version:
- 3: Part of the information is on page 58, not 57.
- 6: Can't access this source.
- Removed this source as upon looking back at it again, it says she began playing piano at Sunday school at age 9, not organ in church. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 12: I presume nobody objects to treating a list of dignitaries from various SE US establishments as proof of "well-attended by leaders in higher education throughout the southeast"
- 20: Can't access this source.
- The quote being cited is this: "When three men, to whom the trustees turned, declined the position, the trustees urged Miss Denmark to serve as acting president to succeed R.H. Holliday, a member of the faculty, who served for a period of three months." His position is supported by this quote on page 68: "After [John E. White's] resignation as president of Anderson College, R.H. Holliday, business manager, was made acting president." PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 21: Where does it say it was unanimous?
- The quote that I gathered that from is this: "In this letter, Mr. Vandiver says: 'In accordance with our phone conversation on December 24th, I have seen the members of the board of trustees of Anderson College, who were present at the meeting on December 15, [1927], and each of them favors making Miss Denmark president with full authority, and not as acting president as was first suggested.'" (emphasis is present in source). Let me know if you have issue with this quote being used to support "unanimous" and I'll take it out. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- That works. I must have glanced over this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 22: Where does it say she was the fifth?
- Added citation to Copeland (2011) p.13: "During its first one hundred years, Anderson University has had twelve presidents. The fifth of those presidents, Dr. Annie Dove Denmark, has the distinction of having served for a quarter of a century..." PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 26: OK.
- 30: Is there a source for the inflation calculation?
- These calculations are done automatically by ((Inflation)) and the source is available on the doc page for that template (FN 46 deals with USD); looks like the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis is responsible for that webpage. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 31: That doesn't mention the financial situation?
- Expanded the page range to include all of the discussion including money (mostly on p.74). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 32: OK.
- 37: Is there a source for the inflation calculation?
- 39: This source says no casualties, and I can't access much of it.
- I also cannot access more than the blurb given when the link is first clicked, but I sourced the death to FN 38, Grazulis (1990) p.260, which states "An elderly farmer was killed in a home on the west edge of Anderson." Also - the information listed for the tornado in that source gives "1k, 30inj" - 1 killed, 30 injuries. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps that should be footnoted - "sources disagree on whether there were casualties" - or the discussion of casualties just removed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus Realized that it really is not important as far as this specific article goes, so I've just gone with "resulting in thirty injuries in addition to the loss of two mills..." and removed the (possible) death altogether. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 42: OK.
- 46: Can't access this source.
- The quote in question: "Anderson College did not admit any debate about a student known to be under the influence of alcohol or having alcoholic drinks in her possession while under the jurisdiction of the college. Such a student was subject to expulsion." PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 48: OK.
- 54: OK.
- 56: OK.
- 63: I am a bit iffy using a source in future tense to source a past tense text. Also, you can probably cut the first citation - don't need two consecutive citation tags to the same source.
- Removed first source as recommended and added a Dec 2010 source that mentions showings at AU. Removed mention of "three showings" since past-tense source doesn't support that, but that info isn't critical anyway. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 64: Probably merits a pagenumber or somesuch.
- This already had a page number but it was incorrect so I've fixed it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- 67
- No comment here but I'm guessing you were going to say you can't access this since it's the Copeland source so I'll provide the quote just in case: "Significantly her long tenure of service at Anderson College resulted in her receiving many letters with the salutation 'Dear Dr. Anderson.'" PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: everything not marked "OK" has either been fixed or responded to above. Thanks for going through and taking another look! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
HF concerns[edit]
@PCN02WPS:, I like to do spotchecks on articles where the source review didn't occur before I promote.
- "Though little is known about the exact events that led to Denmark's election, it is known that her name was put forward for consideration by college trustee J. Dexter Brown[20] and that the Board of Trustees were in unanimous support of her appointment to the presidency when asked at their meeting on December 15, 1927.[18]" - as a more minor point, the location of ref [20] is misleading - it is being used solely to support that Brown was a trustee. How it's used makes it appear that everything prior to that point is cited to it - I recommend just making it Hester 1969, pp. 64, 166 at the end to make it clearer where everything is coming from. The information in the source actually spills over onto p. 65, so that should be added to the range as well
- "She is commonly cited as the first woman college president in South Carolina" - I don't think the sources here really support "commonly cited", especially since one is a book by her university and the other is derived from a press release written by her university. Could just be a puffery claim. As to McClintock, I was also able to turn up a 1908 SC gov't publication referring to McClintock at the only female college professor in SC at the time so the Anderson claim does indeed appear to be wrong
- "commonly cited" was my interpretation of the sources, though you're probably spot on that it's just puffery - it really is interesting, though; it seems to be the go-to fact about her and it was only pointed out to me as incorrect during the article's DYK nom. I have changed "commonly cited" to "sometimes referred to", though I'm happy to change this more if you think that'd be appropriate; my main priority is making sure we acknowledge this fact (and that it's wrong) somehow. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- "Much of the administration's attention ..." should be pp. 91-92, not just p. 92 as the critical bit about the attention is found on p. 91 in the source
- " in addition to the loss of two mills in town and damage to some buildings on Anderson's campus." - not seeing where on p. 94 in Hester is the stuff about the mills
- Found that in the article about the outbreak; checked sources and verified the info about the mills (here if you want to check, bottom of p.260), so that reference has been added. I have also taken out the bit about damage to Anderson's campus; Hester doesn't say that explicitly (only that it "struck the college") and Grazulis doesn't say the college was damaged (though he does say three college students were injured, but I am hesitant to include that as he doesn't mention Anderson by name and I don't want to assume for OR purposes). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have time today to go all the way through this, but this does need some more work on polishing up the sourcing. Hog Farm Talk 23:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hog Farm I appreciate your comments - I have responded to them all above and will go back through to take a closer look at my citations tonight and tomorrow. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for correcting these. I'll be traveling for work next week and may not have regular internet access, so I don't think I'll be able to do much more spot-checking here, although as a coord I would like to see additional spot-checking before promoting. Hog Farm Talk 18:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note to @Hog Farm and any potential spot-checkers: I have decided to go through and check every citation myself, to take responsibility and save people some time. I’m just finishing up with “Early life” - I’ll leave a note here when that process is finished. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:25, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- See spot-check above. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Hog arm, any further comments? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Ping @Hog Farm since I'm guessing the one above didn't go through (though if you need a name for an alternate public access account or some such, might I suggest Hog arm?) PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't really have time to go all the way through again, Gog the Mild, so since JJE is doing a spot-check I'm okay with relying on the results of that. Hog Farm Talk 23:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.