- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I am engaged in a long running debate over the content and structure of a page with Lucia Black and Ryulong. Discussion has yielded no results and a key article viewed by 60000 people is effectively two smashed together articles, with the manga page on top of a minimal franchise branch. Policy-based discussion is rejected for 'we already did otherwise'. Relevant policies are WP:SS specifically WP:DETAIL. Also WP:UNDUE andWP:SPINOFF. Though WP:SIZE and WP:NPOV are also probably relevant for readability and scope.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
This is the first step, Lucia Black's dramatic ANI and Mediation about me 'not discussing' was summarily closed as false. The RFC to oppose my GA close was also rejected for procedures.
How do you think we can help?
Assist in obtaining a resolution to this matter.
To make matters short and simple. Back in October 2012, Lucia merged the Ghost in the Shell (manga) page to Ghost in the Shell. Later put it up for GA and no one took notice until I reviewed the material. I failed the article for numerous reasons and went about trying to fix it, as I was contesting her unilateral change which was hard to detect. Lucia Black overreacted and opened a RFC to contest my GA close, brought me to ANI after I laid out my fixes and tried formal Mediation as well that same day. They both closed as I was discussing with Lucia. I end up taking a wikibreak and come back before Ryulong repeats the merge and begins the dispute anew.
My stance is that the manga page is distinctly different from the franchise material. The original mangas comprise a minority of the content yet dominate the franchise page. Ryulong and Lucia Black are intent on removing the franchise page (Lucia claimed the franchise as not-notable previously) and Ryulong believed the articles were short. The manga was 25kb at merge, but was over 35kb. The original franchise page at Ghost in the Shell is so damaged as needing to be entirely recreated. The page is very important and due to the Ghost in the Shell related items containing numerous entries bearing the exact same name, it is more important than ever to have a franchise page to serve as a proper navigation and bring context and clarity to the media.
Examples of the ridiculous titles of the system Ghost in the Shell corresponds with a manga, a film adaption and an unrelated but based upon video game. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is a tag that runs for 2 seasons of an anime, two video games bearing the same exact name but released on different systems (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (PS2) and its sequel Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (PSP)), another manga and novels. If the absolutely weird naming of the content wasn't enough, three distinct 'universes' seem to exist, so that Stand Alone Complex is based on, but distinct alternate universe. Same with the newly released Ghost in the Shell: Arise which is both a series of film and a manga with the same name. All of which bear the obvious prefix Ghost in the Shell, and the majority of the content is not even from the original creator anymore. Masamune Shirow's original manga may have started it, but it comprises about 10% of the material. A franchise page should not be primarily about the original manga in their fullest depth with the other franchise parts tacked on as an afterthought. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is listed as stale, but I am still watching this and really would like input on it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:03, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
I have had no problems working with Chris until he and Lucia began fighting over the formatting of the page after we came to an agreement to merge everything fairly recently. Both Lucia and I think a single page will suffice but Chris's actions to unmerge the page, his fight with Lucia, his work to produce an "under construction" live version for his claims of a 60k visits a month page, and his insistence that there be two pages to cover very similar subjects is keeping anything from moving forward. Also, Niemti, to my best understanding, is not for or against any version of the page, but Chris is latching onto a comment he made over similar actions taken on an unrelated article.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:34, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I've attempted to come up with a compromise between the two differing opinions on where the page should go with this edit, but Chris is now accusing me of edit warring because of these two edits, as he reverted between and I just thought I forgot to make the change in the first place.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
- Ghost in the Shell is divided by several alternate series. Considering the article has the original media (manga) merged back, and all other alternate series have their own article and cover the media closest related to it, it only makes sense to cover the media closest related to the original media, and not so much on the other media thats more related to the alternate series (that are already covered in their own media). It would duplicate too much info to the point that it would make the other child articles virtually useless. Ryulong some what agrees with what ive said (if not completely). Chris insist his reasoning on that it is a franchise article, and should cover all media equally, in which case would only convolude the article as multiple series and adaptation share the same media but are less related to eachother.
EDIT:To clarify what i mean, there is Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex that fully details its respected media. But the TV series is the original Stand Alone Complex. And the same goes with Arise series. Unlike certain other stories, the Plot between the original nd its alternate universes are still similar enough to show they are based off the original series.Lucia Black (talk) 16:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
I'm actually not really involved, but my proposition is that Chris & Ryu work out something on their own (without LB). That's also "closing", because I'm out. --Niemti (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Ghost in the Shell, Talk:Ghost in the Shell discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hi All, and thanks for having patience. I've gone through the extensive talk page discussion and would like to ask some leading questions. How does Ghost in the Shell (the franchise) compare to other long standing Japanese culture phenomenons such as Full Metal Panic! and Naruto. I'm looking at the argued about section (The Publication history) and wondering if the 2nd through 4th paragraphs can be spun over to the list of chapters and re-titled "GitS manga", thereby giving a natural home for the content (by adjusting the title of the page) and gathering the nitty gritty details of the manga publication away from the franchise information. Please give your thoughts. Hasteur (talk) 16:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- That's not the "argued about section". This is a dispute over whether or not there should be a separate article dedicated solely to the original 3 manga volumes and keeping another article as the "franchise" (I swear if I see this word one more time I'm going to rip my hair out) article. Your proposal Hasteur effectively reverts everything to the status quo before merging the "Ghost in the Shell (manga)" article to Ghost in the Shell and renaming the "Ghost in the Shell (manga)" article to List of Ghost in the Shell chapters. The way the article is set up now, as being about the manga first and any adaptations second, is how nearly every other anime article is set up, such as Sailor Moon and Naruto.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Simmer down... It was not a proposal, it was asking a question. I'm looking at the unified page and it seems like those 3 paragraphs that spend a significant amount of space talking about the "And this volume had a statuette with it" kind of details. I don't think that for the page talking about the entire collected works of the story universe(Manga, Anime, OVAs, Video Games, Soundtracks, figurines) the content is a little too detailed. Hasteur (talk) 17:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Your suggestion still throws out a month of work. I don't think this would be much of a problem had the articles not existed in the previous state for about 8 years. While I do agree that soe of the minutae about what got released with what doesn't have its place on the main article (most of it seems trivial) the central article should be about the original piece of fiction as per WP:MOS-AM.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Unlike other mangas, each manga volume is a separate continuation. So detailing each one is due to them being separate it's not "ghost in the shell volume 1". The problem with making a franchise article and a separate manga article is that once split, both articles will cover practically the same. You see, the manga has spun out several alternate tellings that are too connected to the original manga. So splitting the manga will still have to cover those alternate tellings. The other issue is the media based on those alternate tellings. ChrisGualtieri (considering wants this to be a franchise article) wants to cover all media more related to their alternate telling more than the original media (manga), the soundtracks, the manga adaptations, etc.
- That media is covered already in their respected article and makes things much more organized.Lucia Black (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Lucia gets it about half right. The original manga and its sequel (the other comprising 1.5) are distinct entities and are not typical in manga productions. Nothing about Ghost in the Shell is 'normal'. It is a collaborative series of works that represent different facets and events that are only connected by the character and theme. The plots are unrelated or contradictory. SAC is not adapted from the manga, it is a alternate universe and non-canonical body of works. We do not even contain mentions to a third of the franchises' titles and I am not counting artbooks and other unofficial publications. Ghost in the Shell is not a typical manga to anime adaption, it is the equivalent of Star Trek: The Original Series and Star Trek (film). And yes, Star Trek is a top-level topic (a better word for franchise?) for all things Star Trek related. This is not a franchise crusade, its about proper balance and scope within a large collection of works, which is best served by a broad overview of the topic Ghost in the Shell. As for policy arguments, the Ghost in the Shell manga (original and sequel) meets WP:GNG and WP:N. Bestseller status and numerous major mentions qualifies for independent articles, of which the majority of content can be split per WP:SPLIT. Also per WP:SS with the reason to split comes from the lede, "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own." It is not a problem with WP:CFORK because it would be in accordance with WP:SPINOFF and is very much highlighted by WP:RELART. The last issue is the the invoking of the Manual of Style (WP:MOS-AM) as a reason to merge these articles present an issue currently under discussion, but for immediate concern the reason why MOS-AM has no say about the split is WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." These MOS-AM and other weak arguments from Lucia and Ryulong has been the source of this problem, but for the scope of this DRN, let's keep it to Ghost in the Shell alone. Other discussions at other pages will be on going, but Talk:Ghost_in_the_Shell#Scope has the most recent conversation including a list of 30+ titles in the Ghost in the Shell franchise. I hate to make arbitrary calls on things, but if 20 meet WP:N and WP:GNG on their own merits, shouldn't the top level topic function as a concise overview of all those materials? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
- Chris, you need to stop making this subject out to be more than it really is and stop alphabet souping everybody into submission (there is some essay out there that says "don't try to list off WP page after WP page to sway your argument). The current manual of style (which is only under discussion because you started a discussion) suggests that the main article on any anime or manga should be about the original work.
- There is no reason that we cannot provide a broad overview of the subject following discussion of the primary work of fiction, particularly because the original work of fiction is so much smaller in comparison to the plethora of works that followed it. Before anything happened the articles were not the best. At this stage your "broad overview" article looked like a piece of shit and the individual manga page was still superfluous at best. At least now we have something that is in line with similar articles on the project, even if you do not like the format. Your constant arguments that the article is too big per WP:SIZE (it's 35k at best) or that it should not focus on the manga are unfounded. And there is no proof that the 30+ other titles you list off meet any notability requirements. I'm also looking at the 2nd GIG page and thinking it's way too short and it could probably be merged into the Stand Alone Complex page but I won't be bold this time around.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I would like to say, that I'm not half right about this. I've watched all the films, read all the mangas, watched all the episodes. They are very well connected not to mention them in the original manga page if split, meaning it will be a near duplicate.Lucia Black (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
- To Ryulong: Call alphabet soup if you want, I call them policies and editing guidelines. I've thoroughly cited numerous policies to which you do not seem capable of challenging so you are insistent upon objecting without offering evidence that my argument is flawed or wrong. Your point about challenging MOS-AM is on policy and I am not alone. With Nihonjoe stating, "...if there is enough reliably sourced material to create a separate article, then it is perfectly acceptable to do so. MOSAM should not and can not prevent this as this is enwiki policy and guidelines." Furthermore as I pointed out, MOS-AM does not require an article majorly about the original work, only to discuss the original in the introduction. My concise and broad overview of ALL the material which exists is what I want, there is far too much detail on the manga to warrant cramming everything onto the main page. Because it is so detailed I wanted it to have its own off-shoot, not necessarily to separate articles for the volumes, but a proper place to describe the work in detail, per WP:DETAIL. As for the 30+ titles meeting notability, many meet N or GNG, but for right now we don't even mention or discuss them in the existing articles. A clear coverage issue, but that is outside this DRN.
- To Lucia Black: Your personal opinion does not matter as it is WP:OR and frankly, its incorrect. Reliable sources like the Anime Encyclopedia and the Production I.G. website use the terms "alternate universe", "re-imagining" and AE brings up the matter of questionable canon. As pointed out in my talk page post here. The "connection" is Motoko, Batou, Section 9 and theme, problem is even Motoko is not portrayed similarly in the media. And you do even note how distinct it is in this post. Yes the original manga deserves a mention for being the starting point of everything, but it is not important or tied to the manga for the majority of the content. The two films are, but those films are really single plots, and Innocence being a heavily adapted single chapter. Half a paragraph at most. And per WP:RELART, that would be acceptable. To put your mocking me from before, its "in accordance with WP:CFORK"[1] and the majority of your policy arguments are flawed. Need I bring up how you 'countered' my argument with: "OTHERSTUFFEXIST is an essay but in a nutshell, meaning commonly accepted."[2] Honestly, Wikipedia is not about !votes and actions should be rooted in good policy and common sense.
- And just in case if anyone thinks I 'have to be right' about things. I was engaged in a dispute earlier about a link, with Boblv's arguments in opposition to my stance. I responded with this. I ended up striking my comment and going to 'neutral' with support for two issues tied to policy. When bested I have a history of striking my opposition and turning to neutral or support, because even if I don't agree, a good policy argument trumps my personal opinion. This content dispute is a concern for me because policy is being ignored for Lucia Black and Ryulong's preference. This DRN is to try and resolve this matter, but outside editors also are weighing in like this, but it is difficult and intimidating when the response that outside editors get. Typically with Ryulong's fury at the volunteer, Hasteur, trying to resolve this problem. Hasteur is volunteering his time to fix this dispute, its an act of charity and should not be treated so negatively for taking a 10 day old case and asking a simple question! And again, Hasteur, thanks for taking the time with this, and anyone else who decides to join the discussion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
But you don't bring good points. You just constantly list policies you THINK help your case. OR is based upon adding questionable info unsourced. That's not the case here. WP:SS actually helps our case aswell because we would be summarizing things to just the key features. You have this way of arguing that derails the main point or rather you use other methods to counter argue. We're not ignoring policies because there is no policy that is actually helping your case.
Splitting from the manga would only cause a duplicate of the main article because the spin offs/alternate tellings are based on the original manga "Directly". WP:REDUNDANTFORK.Lucia Black (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Chris, what you're doing is cherry picking policies and then listing off their acronyms in their arguments to try to get your way. I've attempted to compromise between Lucia's desire to have only one article and your desire to have two to have one nad a half but you will not let go of this idea that there needs to be a "franchise" page. And I was not "furious" but I lamented that Hasteur's only suggestion was to go back to a status quo that never worked well.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
- I am well aware of what WP:OR means and your claims of direct adaption is false. Reliable sources say otherwise, namely Production I.G. and the anime encyclopedia. From the I.G. Website to which Lucia actually dealt with, "Stand Alone Complex takes place in the year 2030, and it is based on the assumption that Major Motoko Kusanagi did not meet the Puppet Master in 2029. In other words, it stands as a separate parallel world to both Shirow Masamune's original comic and Director Oshii's movie. Motoko in this TV series uncompromisingly handles cases as the leader of Section 9, unlike her film version counterpart, who is portrayed as being insecure about herself."[3] With SSS, "Instead of looking for easy compromises, the staff bravely picked up the on-going story of the S.A.C. series and built up an entirely new chapter from the continuity of that context."[4]" Lucia, stop, just stop being disruptive with this. Your 'direct' issue fails because SAC is its own continuity. Reliable sources, not your opinion matter. You keep objecting to things, but you can not back them up and you argue for the sake of arguing. And Ryulong, if you think I am 'cherry picking' policies then that means you understand that my argument has a basis, because you cannot stand in the way of larger consensus. You complain that I do give details about what I want:
- I want a full overview and defined scope of the media. With each work receiving about 200-300 words on the matter and its relevant split to the full article. Stand Alone Complex as the largest continuity will receive a larger portion. I will use official documents in the top-level Ghost in the Shell article to properly connect the works and other academic works about GITS to cover all its media and cultural impact.
- I do not claim to know everything about the topic, but once this little spat is out of the way I am sure that all THREE of us can easily expand the content as Lucia does do good work on individual games. The core of the dispute is the structure of the work, and while the entire series of media was horribly underdeveloped, my vision of a proper main page and a 50kb sub-topics like the manga, SAC and the movies will take time to build out. It may seem like a lot of fuss, but until this matter is decided GITS will not improve because there is no 'compromise' its Lucia's way (1 article) or Ryulong's way(compromise which makes two articles but fills out neither), or my way (Two articles, with concise topic level overview and a dedicated manga page). I want to work together, but this ideological dispute has really taken a toll on all of us. I'd be willing to contend with a dangerous compromise on my part, if the topic-level Ghost in the Shell article fails to produce any results by the end of the month, then we go back to Ryulong or Lucia's suggestion. I'll need both of Ryulong and Lucia's cooperation to make it work though, but I just want a chance without the immediate axing of anything I add. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- You always add an additional word to my previous statement and use that against me. I'm saying all of these alternate tellings are directly related to the original storyline. HOWEVER that does not mean I'm saying they are direct adaptations. Gits film is a loose adaptation of the main storyline of the first manga, gits 2: Innocence is the film sequel loosely based on gits manga chapter "robot rondo". Gits video game is based on the manga's universe. Stand Alone Complex's main story altered heavily, however, still strongly related to the original. Being a "relative" isn't denying that it isn't directly related to the original manga. Example: some of the episodes are based on chapters of the original manga. And the stand alone complex tv film (solid state society) is based on the original plot of the manga.
- They all share the exact same characters, and the exact same story elements and setting. So all of them are still directly related to the manga enough to mention in the manga article IF it were to resplit. And that's the issue. Splitting the manga will only make a nea duplicate of the main article.
- It seems wrong to base weight on article size. Especially when these articles are covered in their respected article. Its just too redundant.Lucia Black (talk) 01:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ugh, god damn it can we stop arguing over canonicity? This is not fucking important.
- Chris, your suggestion that we go back to your preferred two article model of the franchise article (no matter what you call it this is what you want) and an article solely dedicated to the manga, and if it does not work out, then we revert to the merged form is not how Wikipedia works. We have to work together to get to a compromise, but at this point of time you still will not budge. You keep insisting that there has to be an article just on the print adaptation when that is not done anywhere else on the project in regards to any work of fiction that has had multiple media forms. You are right that this "franchise" option works in most places, but it does not look like it will work for Ghost in the Shell. There is just not enough out there to justify having an entirely separate article for the original manga, particularly when the discussion of the manga is still central to the discussion of all of the anime forms (regardless of whether one version is canon to another). You two need to stop arguing and picking over the production details and story elements to just look at what's necessary to present this topic.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:48, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Lucia, characters may be the same but portrayals are different. Same as Star Trek the film and the original series, does not make them direct adaptations. Word choice is important. Keep spouting words, your view is not held by the makers of SAC and I proved that. Ryulong, more words that say nothing. I think this part of the lede for Motoko Kusanagi is enlightening, "Kusanagi's various incarnations in the manga, movies, and TV series all portray her differently. Since each of these series have an independent storyline, Kusanagi's physical and mental characteristics have been modified in different ways to reflect the focus of each respective story." You may not like having a place for the original work, but it does not belong at Ghost in the Shell, its proper place is Ghost in the Shell (manga). All this time you object without evidence or even refuting my arguments. It IS stupid to argue over canon and other things on a topic about structure of a page, but is a example of classic red herring. Lucia Black cannot counter any of my arguments and instead relies on logical fallacies to try and address it, the same as you did. Compromise works for many things, but as already made clear, the attempts thus far are a hijacking. If someone tries to hijack your car you don't "compromise" by sharing the vehicle. Every argument brought up to avoid a proper balanced page is terribly flawed. Let's go through the list
- Lucia argued the franchise was non-notable
- Ryulong and Lucia argue MOS-AM and proper merge, MOS-AM does not save it.
- Ryulong and Lucia argue they are too related, disproven by the makers.
- Honestly, its about time this stops, and for good. The 'compromise' is that the manga gets to have 50kb of content on its own page and gets tied into the main page as the original work in discussion. Somewhere about 1k words and a proper split as per policy. Any issues of 'oh that's redundant' is stopped by WP:RELART and WP:DETAIL because the introduction for a split article should be about one half the lede. Specifically, "The parent article should have general summary information and the more detailed summaries of each subtopic should be in child articles and in articles on specific subjects." and "The summary in a section at the parent article will often be at least twice as long as the lead section in the child article. The child article in turn can also serve as a parent article for its specific part of the topic, and so on, until a topic is very thoroughly covered.". Okay? A "franchise" or "parent" or "top-level" article for Ghost in the Shell is acceptable, especially if we have 20 different articles to branch off to. Also, Akira (manga) and Akira (film) despite the Akira film being based on the on-going manga with its own ending. Also, it is cyberpunk and its anime. GITS was supposed/is the sci-fi successor of Akira. GITS has far more different media, plots and original works then Akira did. Now please stick to policy and arguments, I hate seeing strawmen, red herrings and other logical fallacies from you two. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Seeing as you refuse to address any of my concerns I will no longer be participating in this dispute resolution until another uninvolved party attempts to read through this essay of yours. I mean, I don't understand why the hell you won't accept Ghost in the Shell and List of Ghost in the Shell chapters as they are now. There are two articles. One's dedicated to discussing the manga and the other isn't. You just want the locations to be the other way around.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
You ask for policies, but policies don't even help your case. You don't use WP:UNDUE correctly, and you think WP:SS supports your claims for a split (but somehow ignore. It when we use it). The policies only confirm a split is generally possible under the right circumstances. However we still have WP:REDUNDANTFORK, which splitting an article would be too redundant. You always bring up size as a relevant point, but its not relevant at all.
Your comparison to Star Trek and Akira aren't solid at all. First of all, Akira manga/film articles only prove that the manga and anime shouldn't be merged. But that's not the issue. (Also the structure and organization is bad. A "live-action" film and "video games" are all linked to the film mainly over the original with no reasoning). They're both sci-fi doesn't merit a good comparison. When has genre ever affected an article's structure?
Here's the difference between Star Trek, and possibly every franchise ever released (Except Tenchi Muyo! But that article also needs work and maybe some merges). Star Trek has several spin offs unrelated to the original. Sure similar universe, but different time, different characters, etc.
Ghost in the Shell, on the other hand, are all alternate tellings of the original (with Arise being the only one that's a prequel). All spin offs are directly related to the original manga (except for the spin off media based on the original spin offs). Example, IF the manga would split, its loose film adaptation (its sequel), its playstation video game, the Stand Alone Complex, and Arise will still have to be mentioned in the manga article as all of those were inspired and also based on the original manga.
You try to use the differences as to what makes them unique, and what you consider similar is not enough. But what makes them similar is the core and what makes them related to the original manga directly. Example: If Star Trek had its franchise solely based on "allternate tellings" having loose adaptations, alternate story, yet also has the exact same characters and same universe, then Star Trek: The Original Series would be forced to mention those in its article aswell.
The creators only confirmed how different they are, but their still directly related. Its like saying "lemonade isn't related to lemons because the maker added water and sugar." WP:REDUNDANTFORK. That's a good enough reason not to split.Lucia Black (talk) 22:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
Ryulong, stop editing GITS, you removed 11,199 bytes of content altering the appearance of the page. I do not want a "list" I want a full manga page not your "compromise" of original manga focus and publication history on another. Lucia Black, your strawman arguments and your desire to merge everything is ridiculous. Lemon and Lemonade are distinct articles, REDUNDANTFORK only applies to DUPLICATION of content. Such as the numerous Boston Bombing pages that mention the exact same topics. I do not see how you can continue to argue such obviously false and distorted stances, while remaining ignorant of their intention. If there is a policy based reason for your objections, voice them. Otherwise, I think we are done here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- There's nothing binding about this thing that doesn't mean I can't fix up the article in good faith while this is ongoing. What you can't do is constantly revert back to your preferred state of the article. More than half of those 11,199 bytes went to the list of chapters. The rest of it is unnecessary exposition on the various adaptations.—Ryulong (琉竜) 23:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Chris will now not allow me to edit the article.—Ryulong (琉竜) 23:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- We are discussing this between ourselves now on my talk page. And are working toward a resolution, it seems we want the same thing but call and refer to it differently. My effort to preserve the original dispute, as my good faith edits were removed and prevented, which was the reason I brought this here. Anyways... I think this DRN may close as I see a solution in sight with Ryulong. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:06, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
- Hi guys. Sorry about the delay in me attending to this one. I'm not quite up to speed with the whole dispute - what stage are we at with the discussion here? Has any progress been made? I also note that some of the conversation above has been heated above, so let's step back a bit and see what we can do to work towards a compromise. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 04:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
- No progress has been made because Chris is rejecting any compromise thrown his way that does not meet his personal ideas as to what should and should not be on the main article. He wants the scope of the article to cover everything that has been Ghost in the Shell in excruciating detail (while still having side articles) and will not allow it to be about the original manga first, with brief discussion of the other subjects. He wants a summary page for everything (the "franchise page") and a page solely dedicated to the original manga rather than the form I have instituted in my original merge where there is a page dedicated about 75% to the original manga, with the remaining 25% covering the other forms in brief, and a page dedicated to the extensive publication history that Chris found and wrote up.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:17, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
{outdent} That is not true, per basically all of WP:SS the excessive and unbalanced coverage of the original works belong on their own page. I will not argue individual articles for them, but having 1900 words and having 360 words to cover the other 30 something titles in the universe is the height of undue weight. I do not have to accept your "compromise" because while there exists two pages, that compromise serves only to spin off the publication history and the list of chapters, when that article should become the singular place for discussing in detail. You continue to alter the page and its content despite me informing you to stop, you will not let me edit, so you should not continue as well. You will not argue policy and the constant removal of content continues to whittle away our coverage of the entirety. So much damage has been dealt by both Ryulong and Lucia Black's content removals, this false belief in the original manga having to dominate and replace the long-standing top level (aka franchise) page has disrupted the articles for 6 months. Here are two versions. Original franchise article pre-dispute in Oct 2012 [5] After Lucia's edits and the start of my objection to this "original work" dominated page Jan 2013 [6] While the original manga coverage was poor, Lucia worked on the original manga page and then combined it to push out the much more popular and notable works. While nothing is perfect or complete on Wikipedia, it is eminently clear of Lucia's intention as she put it up for GA. The only fathomable reason I can see for the continued over-detail on the manga is that you want your work to displayed in the most prominent way possible even if it means ignoring policy and fabricating, defending and pushing false information as has repeatedly been done throughout this article. The simple fact that in 4 months of discussion you cannot cite, by policy, why your structure improves Wikipedia is an example of your weak arguments. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
- Chris, I am just finding it impossible to discuss anything with you anymore because you will not budge on your insistence that we have this "franchise article" or "top-level article" or whatever you're calling it this week and an article dedicated to just the three books, and your constant edits to restore the version you prefer over the one that Lucia and I have been working on together. The article effectively follows the formats suggested by WP:MOS-AM at this stage, but you are rejecting that entirely because it gets in the way of your preferred state of the pages. You consistently see this as a franchise rather than one primary work and its many adaptations. Gundam is a franchise. Pokémon is a franchise. Survivor is a franchise. The Amazing Race is a franchise. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a franchise. Ghost in the Shell is not. You've brought up the 20+ or 30+ media related to Ghost in the Shell, I know. But that list of yours is still cut down to the three existing branches (the films, SAC, and ARISE) we already mention on the article, and that the article doesn't need to have extensive coverage on. You've rejected everything that's been proposed because it doesn't meet your vision and your excuses here are saying that Lucia and I don't have the alphabet soup of Wikipedia space links to back up our reasons for having the articles in the state we've been working on.—Ryulong (琉竜) 00:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. On another note, Chris, you always use this obscure way of discussion. For one, you mention size which isn't relevant, than you bring out guidelines, particularly WP:SS, WP:DETAIL, and WP:GNG combined to prove manga has to be split, but WP:GNG is only meant to prove if an article is notable, not whether an article should split. WP:SS and WP:DETAIL are guides to properly summarize content if split. If split, it would lead to WP.REDUNDANTFORK which means splitting will only cause the main article and the split to resemble too much.Lucia Black (talk) 00:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Hi all, thanks for providing more info. I tend to work on fictional articles myself, but I wonder if wider opinions have been sought from members at WikiProject Anime and Manga? I think it would assist if more participated in this discussion (or it was returned to the talk page/a section on WT:MANGA) rather than having an isolated discussion here. I don't think that this is a dispute we will resolve with a result of "User:A is wrong, User:B is correct" but will be a compromise of sorts. I'm happy to assist in guiding a discussion that takes place elsewhere, but I feel it is better suited to take place at a location where more can participate. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 10:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- All informal attempts at compromise have failed, though. Anything proposed or acted upon by myself and Lucia is rejected by Chris. And because he started this discussion he wants all discussion here rather than anywhere else.—Ryulong (琉竜) 12:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ryulong that is not true, between the two of us. Also other people have chimed in in various places. Some better then others. Here's a few examples in order:
- Lucia, you've claimed that Chris is biased, without having any apparent reason. He admitted that he's a fan of the franchise himself, but how does that translate to bias against the article's nomination for GA status? I don't see any fault with Chris's behavior in any regard, and he appears to be attempting ultimately to improve the article. Furthermore, the edits he's making to the article seem to me unequivocally to be improving it, so I don't follow what you're saying when you claim that the improvements are "subjective", "changing the focus" or "changing the article". Rutebega (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC) (first ANI)[7]
- I'm not going to look too far back in the history of this, but I gather from looking at this old version and the current version is that Chris is adequately converting Ghost in the Shell's article away from its manga focus to a more broad media franchise; which I agree with. It isn't even that extensive to be of concern. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 03:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC) [8]
- (...All the major franchise articles (and there are scores if not hundreds of them) are separate from their original works for a very good reason. I spent a good ammount of time separating the content and making a franchise infobox too. You've got, for example (the very first thing than came to my mind): Mad Max AND Mad Max (franchise) (and Mad Max (character)), or Max Payne and Max Payne (series) (and Max Payne (character), too). Or Star Wars and the stuff in Star Wars (disambiguation) (including "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, 1977 film, originally released as Star Wars", and even Star Wars (manga)). Make it Ghost in the Shell (franchise), if you need so (even as I'd rather keep it as the main article, like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter are for the franchise), but otherwise revert your merge.-Niemti (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC) (talk page)
- I understand both sides of the arguments. Both would work and are not against policies as far as I know. I prefer Chris' franchise version, which matches my ideas and the Gundam article, which has a strong divide between all three franchises; The argument of redundancy does not apply if there is a concise overview. I will probably drop out of this discussion if it continues to be a war between personal opinions. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 21:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC) (talk page)
- "Hi. I was asked to comment, and I agree with DragonZero. I like the idea of a concise franchise page that can give an overview of everything. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 23:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)"(talk page)
- I would include Sjones23 comments, but he switches stances and didn't want to be involved in this that much and is on Wikibreak for exams. So while Lucia and Ryulong keep saying that there is no consensus it is because they protest so much that they drive everyone away and I.. like an idiot respond to them every single time. I'm sure that if the conversation was laid out like this with relevant policy and minimal discussion we would not be here right now. It is partly my fault for continuing to respond and disprove their arguments. MOS-AM is not a rulebook that usurps policy, WP:SS covers the matter explicitly, all of it. If you cannot raise an argument in policy then you have no case. The entire matter is silly and both of your reactions are based in a grudge, with Lucia trying to make essays with the appearance of policy while directing it towards me, "Current Projects: adding new possible essay so editors dont try to not be bad lawyers)" [9] And notably User:Lucia_Black/Wikipedia:Gaming_the_discussion. Though Lucia's grudge is a bit pronounced here User_talk:Ryulong#Compromises, it is not about the content it is about defeating me. With such comments like, "You're compromising too much just to find middle ground. And Chris knows if you continue to budge there would be no difference between "Ghost in the Shell (manga)" and "List of Ghost in the Shell chapters" and "If he doesn't want mediation, then that means he's willing to give up. Or at least showing sign of defeat." It is not about being right or wrong, its about the content, Lucia has made clear she will not budge, while I prefer 1000 words of content on the main page about the original and everything more detailed on another. It is twice that and in excessive detail, instead of losing it, I'd be happy to take Ryulong's List split off, but it includes publication, reception and censorship information that would turn it back into a full manga article. Both Lucia and Ryulong know this, the reason for the continuation of this dispute is purely attrition for Lucia to 'defeat' me. It seems to have stopped being about the content dispute for Lucia a long time ago. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ironic, I made that page to avoid bad lawyering and yet you use the exact same aggresive tactics. Stop deviating the discussion with irrelevancy. You made this huge statement of virtually nothing relevant. Why bring up I want to make an essay to avoid bad lawyers? Why bring up that I know this compromise is just a tool to get your way? Why bring up that you will eventually have to give up if you avoid mediation?
- Oh I know, because you're trying to discredit me without bringing up a good point. Keep those things in talkpage. There not relevant here. I will not budge because I know there's no room for compromise.Lucia Black (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Could you two stop fighting? God damn this is why we can't get anywhere.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)Ț
- You're involved too. He admits he's using ur compromise as a tool to get his way. And in the end he just admitted what he's asking is what he personally prefers, not what's necessary. So there's no point.Lucia Black (talk) 16:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- And you stop unindenting everything. God damn.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm starting to see why this dispute has gotten to where it was.
- For whatever reason, since late 2005, we've had a very very short article just about the manga of Ghost in the Shell that expanded exponentially around this time last year when the separate articles for Ghost in the Shell 1.5: Human-Error Processer and Ghost in the Shell 2: Man-Machine Interface merged into it.
- A few months later, Lucia decided to merge what was the page disambiguated as "manga" with the main article, and it stayed that way until January when Chris reviewed it for GA status and basically reverted everything Lucia had done after denying its review.
- From this point on he expanded the two articles and set up the divide until I independently discovered the state and performed another merge that Chris reverted again, but after I thought he agreed to it the articles were merged, again.
- A week later, after some apparent argument between himself and Lucia, Chris undid the merge, again.
- I then instituted the list of chapters as a compromise, and again, things seemed fine for a week (all while this DRN was filed), until Chris decided, unilaterally to restore the pre-October 2012 status quo.
- He then objected to several edits I had performed on the main page where I shuffled content back to the list of chapters and cut down on some overly cited content, under the guise that because he had been asked to stop reverting everything to his version that no edits should be done to the present version.
—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- And yet the history revolves around issues relating to Chris more than me. I'm trying to stick to the main discussion. Chris is the one bringing up irrelevant personal issues. All is left is mediationLucia Black (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- The timeline is not the evidence needed. The bickering here and on talk pages is. I just forgot to change something when my mind shifted gears.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- Back on topic (and at this point, we've made ourselves clear) Ryulong believes although there is a large number of media, the media falls into 3 distinct branches, film series, Arise series, Stand Alone Complex series and all branches connected directly related to the original manga. I agree with this, but not only that but because if the manga splits then we will have to mention most of the media directly related to it. Causing WP:REDUNDANTFORK.Lucia Black (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- The timeline shows the dispute more clearly. And I believe that the only reason the manga was split off was because we had separate pages for "Man-Machine Interface" and "Human-Error Processer" as well. Now that they're merged there's no reason to have it all separate from the central article either.—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
About the timeline, its patently false and is an attempt to game the system. I moved the manga centric content to the manga page and wanted to have a concise overview at the main page. It was never about removing content as Lucia had done, it was about preserving and expanding. Matters are policy based and you will refactor and alter and dodge any argument to persist. WP:SS covers what I want to do and you have never countered it. Your views are in the minority, I may be the sole current opposition to your path. Your claims of WP:CFORK has been bested, yet Lucia still brings up the redundant matter even when it has been explained to her. The community has already weighed in and policy stands, the baseless and stalling tactics and the personal attacks waged against me are not proper. Lucia's merge is misguided and disruptive. Ryulong means well, while I do not like some of the actions taken, I am not perfect either. The 'stop editing' argument is not a one-way street. If this debate is to continue only policy and reason, not baseless and conduct actions, should follow. For that my challenge is:
- WP:SS supports a main page when the sub-topic is notable. Prove otherwise
- WP:REDUNDANTFORK does not apply, it is not duplicating content. Prove otherwise.
If no policy based or strong arguments in the spirit of the policy can be made, then the result should be obvious, a main page to cover all topics of GITS and a manga page. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:SS does not enforce or encourage a split from the original media from the main article. It only gives advice to summarize during post-split. Also if you read WP:SS, it actually HURTS your cause.
- Your proposal brings all media into one article and disrupt the three branches of the subseries (that have their own respected article). But WP:SS states "The original article should contain a section with a summary of the subtopic's article as well as a link to it." But that's not what you want. The link to the subtopic article will have to be spread throughout to the main article and not just link to the subtopic article, but the subtopic article's section. Why? Because all ARISE, Stand alone complex, and film series' spin off media would be mentioned in the main article and all that media is already mentioned in the respected subtopic article. Its not independent media, its media that is part of the subtopic.
- In order for this to work (as I previously attempted to compromise), the main article would have to be divided into series, not media.
- WP:REDUNDANTFORK states to avoid splits that cause duplication. And all the subseries are directly related to the manga. When the manga is split, it will still have to mention it's film adaptation, the film's sequel the prequel series ARISE, and the alternate telling STAND ALONE COMPLEX. So 70%-80% of the manga article will still be duplicating the Main article's info. The differences will be one article will "summarize" the original media, the second will "focus" on it. But other than that, same info. So yeah, WP:REDUNDANTFORK is still relevant because its key info related to the original media (manga).Lucia Black (talk) 07:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- And no, Lucia, Chris wants to have a comprehensive article on everything GITS but give it five branches (manga, films, video games, SAC, ARISE) rather than follow the existing model for anime and manga articles that discuss the original work as the central topic and dedicate other articles to discuss the various other media. The only thing that makes GITS different from say Sailor Moon is how SAC was treated as a semi-independent entity and it requires a whole separate set of articles dedicated to it. If there was just a standard retelling of the manga in an animated form instead of the alternate universe in SAC we would not have this problem and instead of all these multiple pages there would have been from the start a "List of Ghost in the Shell chapters" and "List of Ghost in the Shell episodes".—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- How the hell is the timeline an attempt to game the system? I used diffs to show exactly what had happened. And Chris, you're the one with the poor arguments by dismissing Lucia and myself because we can't find some WP: link to twist into supporting our idea. I could perhaps say that the "franchise" of Ghost in the Shell is not notable because there are no reliable sources that discuss the "franchise" as a whole and all of the references I've ever seen used are for the individual parts and not the whole. I don't think I've ever seen critical analysis of everything "Ghost in the Shell"; just its various adaptations.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Lucia, the Anime Encyclopedia disagrees with your assessment of 'directly' related and as Ryulong Ghost in the Shell is not a standard retelling. The manga has the Puppetmaster events which spawned the movie, SAC universe there was no puppetmaster and its an alternate universe/timeline as from Production I.G.. Do I want five sections? I don't know, but I do want the SAC universe materials to be expanded upon, and have that aspect of its universe at least covered in the main page. Even Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is flawed, but at least it is better then the current topic of discussion. Star wars original and expanded universe seems to be a similar to this. Lucia, you never made an actual argument, your position does not stand. Redunantfork does not even apply, it has to be the same subject as pointed out before. SS allows and welcomes discussion of notable sub-topics and gives two FA articles as proof of it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Can we stop arguing about the content of the fiction? And Chris, you are misquoting WP:SS. It's a guide on how to discuss subtopics within the main topic article. It does not give any particular instructions as to when an article should be split. If it is done, then the guidelines there explain how to cover it. However, it is somewhat clear that you want the pages treated the way you see fit rather than two independent editors who came to the same conclusion about them 3 months apart. Also, you've not addressed my statement that "Ghost in the Shell the franchise" isn't notable on its own.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Chris, you say anime encyclopedia disagrees with me, but you don't expand on that. You just don't personally agree that its directly related to the manga. you just proved you know very little about the topic. Solid State Society is all about the Puppeteer (Puppet Master). SAC is that Motoko didn't meet the Puppet Master in the year 2029, And every now and then, your true intentions come up. You don't want the article to focus on the original media because it overshadows (not really) stand alone complex, but they all have their own article, and that's what you don't understand. If one day ARISE overshadows Stand Alone complex will the main article have to over even more for Arise? They have their own article. So the need to expand stand alone complex in the main article is unnecessary.Lucia Black (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ryulong, from SS sections of note: Basic technique, first two paragraphs of Rationale and all of WP:DETAIL and specifically, "Summary style is based on the premise that information about a topic should not all be contained in a single article since different readers have different needs.", but you didn't even need to get out of the lede to learn, "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own." Which leads back to GNG and N with the nature of splitting, "... it may become evident that subtopics or groups of subtopics can demonstrate their own notability, and thus can be split off into their own article." Oh course don't forget, "Each subtopic or child article is an encyclopedic article in its own right and contains its own lead section that is quite similar to the summary in its parent article." So yes, it is appropriate that the summary and lead be similar. I am not misquoting the policy, the manga meets N and GNG and is covered in far greater detail and that's less then half of what could be there. Secondly, Lucia you have already revealed your true intention and assumption of bad faith and numerous personal attacks, SSS is not Puppetmaster. For starters read Puppet Master (Ghost in the Shell) then read the plot of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex: Solid State Society. Start being serious and stop disrupting. This entire dispute is committed to driving away dissenting opinions and complicate the matter so tightly that it is futile. I don't even think you care about the content anymore, as Lucia indicated its about defeating me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- Enough arguing about the content of the fiction you two. And anyway, this all still boils down to "Ghost in the Shell should be a franchise page and the manga should have its own separate article". I have attempted to compromise this point by having the list of chapters, but you still want to move anything that makes the main article focused on the real world aspects of the manga to the list of chapters, rendering everything the way you and only you seem to see fit. But we should shut up, as Sergecross says below, so we can actually make some headway instead of continuing this massive argument ad nauseum.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with Ryulong. For now this all boils down to preference on your part, Chris. WP:SS only gives advice to post split how articles should probably be summarized. GNG yes has the "N" for notability in GNG. But you're ignoring the first "G" which is for General. GNG follows the basic for making an article. Combining these policies/guideline together to imply both support that a split doesn't help your cause. If this was based on my preferences, I wouldn't bother being against a separate article. But the problem is, it involves WP:REDUNDANTFORK. The fork will only cause a duplicate of the main article. That's all I would say.Lucia Black (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Arbitrary break 2
All three of you need to calm down. None of the three of you are convincing any of the other three of anything, and you're making it impossible to decipher with all of these gigantic, wall of text responses. (Or at least so difficult that no one wants to bother to try to follow all of this.) Let some of the DRN volunteers catch up and intervene some, because nothing is progressing with this approach. Sergecross73 msg me 14:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
ChrisGualtieri has manually archived the talk page to set up a clean slate for yet another discussion on changing the scope of the article.—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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