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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
![]() | Closed. A Request for Comments is being used to resolve the issue. Report disruption of the RFC at WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. Please participate constructively in the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I have proposed making a number of changes to the belligerents list in the article's infobox, and backed them all up with many sources.[1][2] Armenia, like Turkey, did not officially declare war despite both nations being heavily involved. For example, no fighting took place in Armenia's borders, even when enemy forces reached them. Both Armenia and Turkey should be listed under a "Supported by:" or being listed as full belligerents. Personally, I support the former because it better reflects how no fighting could take place in their borders due to a lack of declaration of war. However, Erdogan's support has been stated by many sources to have been vital and decisive, so he should also be listed in the leaders.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20] Russia should also be removed as a belligerent completely because the Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh.[21][22][23][24][25] And "Armenian diaspora volunteers" should be removed from the infobox, because these are individual cases and not the result of organization's official backing, unlike the Syrian mercenaries (which were recruited and deployed by Turkey). Thus, it is giving them too much undue weight. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Infobox_belligerents_changes How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I would like for users that have no personal bias in the subject to review the arguments and evidence put forward, and help discuss what changes should be made. Summary of dispute by CuriousGoldenI'm not too involved in this discussion, but the user's proposals of additions and removals are simply wrong. They're using unreliable sources or are cherry-picking from various sources to match the additions/removals they want to implement. I stopped engaging in the discussion after Steverci asked what's wrong with an obviously non-WP:RS, biased source, yet questioned the reliability of Al Jazeera, as I realized the discussion wasn't going anywhere. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 21:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by GrandmasterPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Edits proposed by Steverci are absolutely unacceptable, as I tried to explain to him. First of, Armenia is a party to conflict, it is directly involved in it, and moreover, it is legally recognized as a belligerent. 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement was signed between Azerbaijan and Armenia, with Russia as a mediator. If Armenia is not directly involved in the conflict, as a belligerent, how could it sign the ceasefire agreement? Armenia agrees to stop fire, and according to the text, "The Republic of Armenia shall return the Kalbajar District to the Republic of Azerbaijan by November 15, 2020, and the Lachin District by December 1, 2020". If Armenia is not involved directly, how could it occupy districts of Azerbaijan, and agree to withdraw from them? It defies common logic. In addition, most of Armenians fighting in Karabakh were soldiers and officers drafted from Armenia. Just yesterday dozens of Armenian soldiers were taken prisoner by Azerbaijani army, it turns out they were all from Shirak Province in Armenia, and their relatives are protesting now. [1] If Armenia is not involved, how did those soldiers from Shirak get to Nagorno-Karabakh? As for role of Turkey, there's no reliable source to support direct involvement of Turkey in the conflict as a belligerent. Turkey provided support to Azerbaijan by training personnel and providing arms, and also expressed political and diplomatic support. But Turkish army was not involved in the hostilities. Most of mainstream sources do not support this claim, and marginal sources are not sufficient to support it. And Russia is not listed as a belligerent. "Armenian diaspora volunteers" were involved in the fighting, and their presence is well documented and is confirmed by the Armenian side as well. I see no reason why infobox should not reflect this verifiable fact. Grandmaster 16:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by SolavirumPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Every single WP:RS mentions Armenia as a belligerent in the war.[26][27][28][29] Even Armenia has confirmed it on several occasions.[30][31] They literally were the ones to sign the ceasefire agreement on their and Artsakh's behalf.[32][33][34][35] Thousands of soldiers from Armenia were killed, and they were buried in Armenia[36][37] Even Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights had reported that a huge chunk of the ethnic Armenian soldiers in Nagorno-Karabakh were from Armenia.[38] Removing Russia is a joke. Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh, so what? This isn't the first time we've seen a giant power denying that it finances a proxy in a war. Iran might've denied the reports[39][40] but has yet to prove its claims. Many ethnic Azerbaijanis in Iran also protested the country serving as a gateway for Russian arms.[41][42][43][44] If we remove Russia, we'd have to remove the Syrians too. As there's also no direct evidence on their involvement, and that they've officially denied taking part in the war. Claiming that Turkey took part in the war directly, as a belligerent, is WP:OR and the user's own interpretation. Only the Armenian government and Armenia-funded Russian partisan sources like WarGonzo claims such a thing. There's not a single WP:RS that states Turkish forces were fighting in Karabakh. Removing the Armenian volunteers is, again, a false narrative. There are reports that ethnic Armenians from Lebanon, US, Syria, and other places, numbering in hundreds, and possibly thousands had taken part in the war.[45][46][47] Thousands of individual cases (as Sterverci put it) are well enough to show that non-Armenian nationals took part in the war. In the meanwhile, these reports also give organized involvement, like ex-ASALA members and the Nubar Ozanyan Brigade of the SDF. Sterverci seems like he wants to show the as Artsakh vs. Azerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, while it isn't the case at all. He can head to Armenian Wikipedia for such things, as English Wikipedia isn't preferred for a narrative pushing. References
--► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC) 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderator (NK War)Please read the ground rules. If you have any questions about the rules, ask the questions, because I expect that you will obey them anyway. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The first step is to determine what the scope of the conflict is, and how it will be resolved. Will each editor please make a brief statement saying whether the conflict is limited to the infobox, and also saying what their position is about the infobox. Also, will each editor please state whether they want moderated discussion in order to reach a compromise, or whether they want a Request for Comments. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion except in the space for the purpose. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC) First statements by editors (NK War)The dispute is about infobox. I think that the infobox should be left as it is now. No additional belligerents should be added, due to reasons I stated above. Also, I believe third party opinions might help to resolve the dispute. Thank you. Grandmaster 00:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC) It is limited to the infobox. Both Armenia and Turkey should be listed as either supporting belligerents. Erdogan should be added to the leaders. Russia shouldn't be listed as a belligerent at all. Neither should "Armenian diaspora volunteers". I hope a third-party will be able to review the arguments put forth and help decide on a solution. --Steverci (talk) 02:37, 24 December 2020 (UTC) The dispute is limited to the infobox. It should stay like how it is now. No additions are required per my comments above. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 03:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC) Second statement by moderator (NK War)I was asked by the filing party to reopen this case as having closed it prematurely. It appears that the dispute is about the infobox. Will each party say whether they want to engage in moderated discussion, leading to a compromise, or whether they want an RFC? Also, please either state what you want changed in the infobox, or provide your own version of the infobox. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC) Second statements by editors (NK War)
I believe it would be best for a third-party to help reach a compromise. I propose both Russia and Armenian volunteers being removed and Armenia listed as only playing a supporting role, for reasons I previously cited. I also propose Turkey being made a full belligerent and Erdoğan listed as a leader, in addition to the reasons I previously cited, and also because I just realized the infobox, in its current state, is lying. The Syrian mercenaries are listed under Azerbaijan, when it is Turkey that recruited and mobilized them ("The presence of the Turkish fighter aircraft ... demonstrate[s] direct military involvement by Turkey that goes far beyond already-established support, such as its provision of Syrian fighters and military equipment to Azerbaijani forces" per a source already on the article). I included a version of the infobox with mainly just the syntax being changed, for simplicity. --Steverci (talk) 03:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (NK war)I am trying to avoid taking a position, because one editor would like for help in reaching a compromise. I would however say that any formulation that does not list Azerbaijan as a belligerent on one side and Armenia and Artsakh as belligerents on the other side is a strawman, not a compromise. Go ahead and try to work out a compromise on who are supporting the sides. If anyone wants to leave out Azerbaijan, Armenia, or Artsakh as belligerents, that is sufficiently one-sided to require an RFC. So: Do you want to try to compromise on who is supporting whom, or do we want an RFC? If we have an RFC, it can be multiple-choice, to list each candidate country as a belligerent, supporting, or nothing. Compromise on supporting parties, or RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2021 (UTC) Third statements by editors (NK war)Thank you for your opinion, Robert McClenon. Your efforts are much appreciated. The way I see it, this is not going anywhere. As you noted, it is impossible to not to mention Azerbaijan, Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh as belligerents, and this was said by every other editor here. Yet here we are discussing the same thing over and over. Supporting parties were also discussed many times, and there's the same person who is not satisfied with the lack of consensus for his ideas. I think further continuation of this discussion would be just a waste of everyone's time. Grandmaster 22:09, 4 January 2021 (UTC) I would be willing to compromise on Armenia being listed as a full belligerent as long as Turkey is as well. Artsakh should be listed above Armenia though. --Steverci (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderator (NK war)I will not try to work a compromise when one editor takes a non-mainstream position. I suggest that an RFC on the infobox is in order, and will go forward with it if at least two editors work with me. The RFC will be structured to ask whether country X or faction Z should be listed as (a) a belligerent; (b) supporting; (c) not listed. While it is obvious to me that at least Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Artsakh were belligerents, we can ask about them also. Each editor is asked to list as many possible participants as they want to list, such as Turkey, Syrian mercenaries, Iran, whatever. If you really want the RFC to ask about North Korea, or lizard-men, we can list them. So please identify what countries or factions should be included in the RFC as possible parties in the war. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (NK war)Through the Syrian mercenaries, Turkey's role in the war is undeniably mainstream accepted. American, British, and French media and even the French president have accused Turkey of deploying thousands of combatants. --Steverci (talk) 05:01, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
The role of Armenia has been discussed here and sorted out. And the role of Turkey as a belligerent in the war is not "undeniably mainstream accepted". Quite the opposite, it is generally accepted that Turkey provided support to Azerbaijan, diplomatic, military, etc, but Turkey had no boots on the ground, i.e. no Turkish soldiers were directly involved in the hostilities. Syrian mercenaries are not Turkish army, being a belligerent means sending its own forces into the battle, and not assisting third parties. By that token, Syria is also a belligerent, because it assisted Syrian Armenians to travel to the conflict zone. Grandmaster 21:34, 5 January 2021 (UTC) References
Fifth statement by moderator (NK war)We are not, at this point, trying to resolve what countries are belligerents. At this point we are only trying to resolve what countries to list in the RFC. I will list Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Artsakh only if anyone questions their status as belligerents. I will list Turkey, and Syria, because you are discussing whether they are involved. Who else should be listed in the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC) Fifth statements by editors (NK war)It's not the country of Syria, just mercenaries from Syria were part of the Syrian National Army, so actually enemies of the country of Syria. In addition to RFC listings, Russia should be removed from the belligerents altogether because for doing nothing to support either side, Armenian diaspora volunteers should be removed for referring to individuals and not any organization, and Israel should be added back to supporting Azerbaijan as is currently being discussed. --Steverci (talk) 03:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC) Sixth statement by moderator (NK war)Please do not say who not to list in the RFC. I am only asking what countries and non-state actors to list in the RFC. If you do not want a country listed in the infobox, you will say so in the RFC. At this point, think of this as printing the ballot. Who should be listed in the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Sixth statements by editors (NK war)Adding Turkey (full belligerent) and Israel (as arms suppliers). --Steverci (talk) 17:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC) No additions to the infobox. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 03:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC) I support leaving the infobox as it is. No additions are necessary, as it was extensively discussed at the talk. Grandmaster 00:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC) Seventh statement by moderator (NK War)The infobox currently lists Azerbaijan, Armenia, Artsakh, Syrian mercenaries, Armenian volunteers. It lists Turkey as supporting and Russia as an arms supplier. There is a request to upgrade Turkey to a belligerent. There is a request to add Israel as an arms supplier. What other requests are there, so that I can print the ballot? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:57, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Seventh statements by editors (NK War)Eighth statement by moderator (NK War)The draft RFC is available for view at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/NK war RFC. You may comment on it below, or you may tweak it if your changes will be non-contentious. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC) I would like to get this RFC running. Eighth statements by editors (NK War)Back-and-forth discussion
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![]() | Closed. A six-part Request for Comments is being used. Please express your opinions in the RFC. Please keep your comments in the appropriate section of the RFC so that it can be closed in sections if appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Unflattering facts repeatedly questioned and deleted, result is false balance and whitewashing by omission. "Critiques of videos" Prager controversies repeatedly deleted:
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? This page is unsalvageable - there is endless debate about what is due weight for inclusion, what sources are reliable, why material shouldn't be included. I believe result is status quo stonewalling, misunderstanding of consensus policy, whitewashing of PragerU controversies by omission. I believe mediators will agree when presented with full range of evidence. I believe controversial page like this have full admin protection if consensus cannot be reached, which unfortunately is likely Summary of dispute by ShinealittlelightI'm happy to participate, but I don't see a content proposal here. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Summary of dispute by SpringeePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I agree with Hipal. Coming here with the assumption that a content dispute is due to issues other than RS, WEIGTH etc will make it hard to reach an amicable resolution. Springee (talk) 18:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC) Summary of dispute by MasterTriangle12This dispute is about what is considered DUE and what is considered a RS. There are many specific additions that are caught up in this but it is primarily a dispute about whether criticism of the content produced by PragerU from widely respected sources is notable enough to be added to the page. PragerU is a highly controversial entity and has garnered massive criticism for their content, I do not believe that the extent of this should be diminished on their Wikipedia page. The addition I was attempting to make was a single sentence in the introduction referencing the large amount of criticism that has been levied at PragerU for the content they produce, the discussion of this is found here. In this discussion the only reasonable issues I (self) identified was a possible problem with synthesis since I was making the claim that criticism was widespread by referencing several respectable sources, although a few specifically mentioned the claim I was synthesising, and the wording possibly being too harsh. But these were not why it was blocked, there was a belief that all the sources were either of "low quality" or their commentary could not be used due to bias, I believed the claims to that effect were poorly supported, but my refutation of these claims was barely engaged with. I have only had a little engagement with some of the other content discussions that were mentioned by Noteduck, but despite the different content it seems the disputes are very similar in scope and extent. MasterTriangle12 (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Summary of dispute by HipalPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I'm not sure if I'll participate if Noteduck cannot more closely follow our behavioral policies. I've found it an incredible waste of time to try to educate new editors on content policy when behavior policy is not being followed first. If Noteduck's opening comments here are not heavily refactored, I don't see how we can make any progress. Wikipedia is not a battleground, and witchhunts tend to end poorly. So far, what I can make of the dispute is that a new editor, Noteduck, is unhappy with the PragerU and related articles, and is having a very difficult time understanding how Wikipedia works (eg the roles of admins, what are reliable sources, how to work to create consensus). I'm happy to refactor this statement to more focus on the content issues, but at this point I don't see how we can move beyond behavior. --Hipal (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC)--Hipal (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC) PragerU discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderator (Prager)As we and the arbitrators have agreed, I will mediate this dispute. This does not mean that I will decide on content; I will not decide on content, which will be decided in one of two ways by consensus. I will address one comment by the filing party up front. The filing party writes: "I believe controversial page like this have full admin protection if consensus cannot be reached, which unfortunately is likely". The article will not be locked. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. We will try to achieve consensus in either of two ways. The preferred way is by compromise. The alternate way is by a Request for Comments. Read the usual rules. I will repeat some of them. Do not reply to each other, except in the space marked Back-and-forth discussion, and we will not necessarily pay any attention to back-and-forth discussion. Reply to me and to the community (and I am the spokesman for the community and for the arbitrators). Be civil and concise. Some of the statements made have been too long to understand. Very long statements may make the poster feel better, but they do not clarify the issues. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, so we will talk about the article. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. (If you edit the article while discussion is in progress, I may request that you be partially blocked, locked from editing the article.) Each editor is asked to state, in one paragraph, what they either want changed in the article or what they want left the same. If you need more than one paragraph to say how you want to improve the article, you may create a subpage, or you may explain on your talk page. Keep your statements here concise. Make your statements in First statements by editors. Be civil and concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Eighth statement by moderator (PragerU)User:Hipal asks whether we are planning on a large RFC or multiple smaller RFCs. I have prepared a draft for one large RFC because User:Noteduck provided me with a long list of changes that they want. Does User:Hipal have an idea for how to submit the RFC or RFCs? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC) User:Shinealittlelight says that some of the items in the RFC have errors. Please identify any correctible erros in the RFC that can be edited before the RFC is posted. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC) It appears that the editors who oppose the changes to the article want me to act as a gatekeeper as to what changes can be discussed. That isn't my concept of how DRN works. Do the editors who oppose the additions want to stage the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Eighth statements by editors (PragerU)Sure, see my above comments where I identified the errors. I don't want you to be a gatekeeper. I want you to apply policy to formulating a reasonable RfC. I also want you to read my comments which frankly it appears you did not do. Shinealittlelight (talk) 07:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC) I don't see an issue with one big RfC. The alternative is the article gets flooded with RfCs. Conversely, if Noteduck would prefer to create their own RfCs rather than having Robert McClenon do it that is also fine with me. That doesn't mean I support the content, only that RfCs are, per typical content dispute resolutions, the way to move forward here. Springee (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC) We're already being flooded, while it's unclear if past discussions are being read or policy is being followed. I suggest we focus on one item of Noteduck's choice, and work on it until we agree that basic policy is being followed and relevant background identified. Then move on to others as we build the RfC. --Hipal (talk) 17:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Ninth statement by moderator (Prager)I acknowledge that I didn't initially read the comments by Shinealittlelight in detail. The comments were a combination of general disagreement and specific issues, and we should not be wasting preliminary time in restating the general issues. I have read them in more detail and will respond to them. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC) One editor wrote: "Quotes must be exact. Misquoting could be seen as evidence of serious behavioral problems." The first sentence is correct. Misquoting can have several causes, including various sorts of copying errors, or sloppiness. This noticeboard does not discuss editor behavior, and participants are expected to assume good faith. You may not reword text in a direct quotation. You may not, in this discussion, use errors in quotes to imply bad faith. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC) The first item needs to be reworded to be an exact quotation. Is Shine asking to reword the second through fourth items, or only disagreeing with them? Shine's comments on the fifth through seventh items are disagreements that can be addressed by disagreeing. Hipal wants to work on one of Noteduck's items and ensure that basic policy is followed. Which one? If you think that one of them can be improved, please offer a change. (Otherwise it seems that I am being asked to be a gatekeeper of discussion, and my plan is to let the RFC through the gate.) So. The quote in the first point must be corrected. Are there specific rewordings being requested for 2 through 4? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Ninth statements by editors (Prager)The quotations in item 1 have been amended as requested. I have (with help from MasterTriangle) written up edited versions of all 7 points of complaint that I believe are balanced, due and detailed (though there may still be revisions required) on Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/PragerU RFC. The last item alone has several dozen references. Hipal has made vague complaints about policy not being followed but hasn't made substantive requests for changes. I find it quite baffling that some of the editors who are parties to this debate are not contributing but continue to actively post on the PragerU talk page.[30] The aim in taking this to the DRB was to improve the page and I've worked hard at that. If there are complaints about any of the 7 items, please voice them, and let's focus on working to make this a better page Noteduck (talk) 12:01, 17 January 2021 (UTC) Statement by ShinealittlelightIt's my understanding that I can continue to comment on the talk page during this; if that's not the case, let me know and I will withdraw from this process. In any case, I am unclear on the distinction you are drawing, Robert, between "disagreement" and (let's call it) useful feedback on the RfC. You seem to agree with me that we don't need an RfC to determine how quotation marks work. Great, that's progress I guess! I would tend to agree with you that the question of whether (for example) an opinion from Kotch--a journalist that most people have never heard of--is DUE might arguably be an RfC sort of question. So I can accept that if that's what you think, even though I think it isn't really hard to see that this is not DUE. But (again, for example) the claim that Kotch's opinion must be attributed to him in text seems to me an obvious point about policy that does not need an RfC. So shouldn't we be asking about a version of the material about Pitcavage that attributes to Kotch? I see that Noteduck has proposed such a version. As the moderator, would you like to weigh in on whether that's the version that's going to be used? I also proposed (following a suggestion from Springee) that we should include a summary of the content of the video drawn from the LAT piece. Should that be included? Again, this does not seem like an RfC dispute; it seems obvious that it's just an improvement in the proposal to include a description of the content of the video following such a source as the LAT. If I'm right about all this, the first RfC just needs to ask whether the Kotch quote is DUE. The rest would not then be in dispute, and should not be part of the RfC. I've got more to say about the other items, but I'm going to wait and see how you respond to this before spending more time. Shinealittlelight (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC) Statement by HipalI repeat my request to Noteduck: Please pick one item that you feel best meets the basic policies of WP:V and WP:RS so we can review it in depth against those policies and all relevant discussion and consensus. Thank you. --Hipal (talk) 16:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC) Tenth statement by moderator (Prager)There seem to be a few questions now about what overall approach we are taking to mediating this content dispute. This mediation began when Noteduck made some edits to the article which were reverted. Noteduck then made a good-faith but mistaken request for arbitration, and I offered to mediate the content dispute. Noteduck has the right (as does any editor) to file a Request for Comments. Noteduck then proposed seven changes to the article, and I put these proposed changes into the form of a draft RFC. Questions were then raised about the accuracy of the points in the draft RFC, and some editing has been done on the draft RFC. Now there seem to be different ideas as to how to continue with the mediation. Hipal wants to select one item and work on it and be sure that policy is followed. I am willing to work on one item at a time in putting together the RFC if Noteduck is willing to take this approach. However, Noteduck has the right to have their proposed changes sent forward as an RFC if they wish. Shinealittlelight: Are there now any items in the draft RFC that you are ready to have published in an RFC? Noteduck: Are you withdrawing item 3? So are we down to six items? What I will do at this point is to step back for three days and allow the editors to talk back-and-forth and see if they can agree on how to go forward. There can be back-and-forth discussion in the Tenth Statements section. Editing the draft RFC is also permitted. If this works, then it works. If this does not result in agreement as to how to go forward, I will take control again. Tenth statements by editors (Prager)No, I do not think any of the RfCs are currently well-formed. I tried to engage with the moderator about why the first one is not well-formed and he has decided not to engage with me. Thus, I do not know what I am doing here. If Noteduck would like to respond to my last statement, I would be glad to try to make progress. I sure am glad that I didn't spend more time on my last comment, since it seems to have been disregarded. If I'm just going to be talking to Noteduck, I don't know why we aren't just on the article talk page. Shinealittlelight (talk) 21:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
I am not sure what the etiquette with RfCs is but I think Noteduck might be able to correct the problems with the quotes directly rather than just add suggestions? Please correct this if I am wrong though. Shinealittlelight should put forward some sort of proposed content about a "summary of the content of the video drawn from the LAT piece", either here to discuss it's insertion into the RfC, or into the discussion on the RfC page, I looked around in the previous statements and the article and but don't know what this is talking about, sorry if it was brought up earlier but I can't comment. This proposals are disparate enough that multiple RfCs are certainly needed, but I could see a few of them being combined without conflicting them, maybe next time since it's not too critical here. MasterTriangle12 (talk) 09:21, 19 January 2021 (UTC) I don't want multiple RfCs. The aim in bringing this dispute forward was improving the PragerU page by ending what I contend is a pattern of partisan deletions and stonewalling on the page, and I don't want to get dragged down in extended arguments over minor points. There was an attempt by Robert to build consensus at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/PragerU RFC but several of the involved editors showed no interest in contributing despite continuing to post here and on the PragerU talk page. Here are some of the revised versions of the items presented on that RfC based on contributions by MasterTriangle and myself (I don't believe anybody else contributed, though Hipal offered criticisms). Note that item 3 has been discarded for now. I am not saying that each of these items is perfect and may not warrant further revisions, but there is a huge body of worthy source material here based on mainstream (mostly)journalistic assessments of PragerU's work which warrants inclusion on the page. Yes, the quotes in the Douglas Murray passage have been rearranged. Remember, it's not enough to simply assert that there is no consensus or that a source is unusable - let's work together to improve the PragerU page please. The revised edits so far: Revised item 1The 2018 video "The Suicide of Europe" about immigration to Europe, presented by author Douglas Murray drew criticism in the media, with Sludge's Alex Kotch contending that the video's "rhetoric of 'suicide' and 'annihilation' evokes the common white nationalist trope of 'white genocide'".[1] Kotch interviewed Mark Pitcavage, a fellow at the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism, who said that while he didn't consider the video fascist or white nationalist, there was "certainly prejudice inherent in the video" and that it was "filled with anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim rhetoric".[2] The Southern Poverty Law Center described the video as a "dog whistle to the extreme right",[3] while Evan Halper in the Los Angeles Times said the video echoed some of the talking points of the alt-right.[4] Revised item 2The August 2018 video "The Charlottesville Lie" presented by CNN presenter Steve Cortes contested the claim that in the wake of the Unite the Right rally Donald Trump had used the phrase "very fine people on both sides" to refer to neo-Nazis. Cortes said in the video, which was later retweeted by Trump himself, that the media had committed "journalistic malfeasance" in reporting it as such.[5] The Forward's Aiden Pink and Mother Jones' Tim Murphy criticised the video, with Murphy calling it an attempt to "rewrite the History of Charlottesville",[6][7] while University of Virginia professor Larry Sabato bluntly rejected the notion that Trump was not referring to the far right with his "both sides" remark, saying that "anybody who tries to pretend that [Trump] wasn't encouraging the white nationalists [at Charlottesville] is simply putting their head in the sand".[8] Dennis Prager himself contended in The Australian that Google placed the video on YouTube's restricted list within hours of it being uploaded in an act of politically motivated censorship.[9] Cortes ceased working for CNN in January 2020, saying that he was "forced out" of the network for making the PragerU video defending Trump.[10] Revised item 4PragerU's videos on controversial topics are often highly visible and accessible through YouTube's search engine, with a report by the Data & Society Research Institute noting that a YouTube search for "social justice" returned the PragerU video "What is social justice?" that was highly critical of the concept as the first result.[11] Revised item 5PragerU received criticism for producing two videos in 2018 featuring comedian Owen Benjamin, who had attracted controversy for mocking Stoneman Douglas High School shooting survivor David Hogg, making racist and homophobic slurs in his material, and promoting conspiracy theories.[12][13] In February 2019, Benjamin attracted negative publicity for making anti-semitic remarks,[14] and in April 2019 the Jewish Telegraph Agency's Bethany Mandel reported that he had made a "full-blown descent into Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism", while noting that his appearances on PragerU had helped him "maintain a limited degree of visibility in the conservative world.[15] PragerU later removed their videos with Benjamin from their website and from YouTube.[16] Revised item 6In November 2020, PragerU attracted criticism for its video "Who was Robert E. Lee?" in which it defended the historical legacy of the Confederate leader Robert E. Lee and criticized attempts to remove monuments dedicated to him.[17] Brandon Gage of Hill Reporter called the video an "overtly racist jumble of propaganda and historical whitewashing" and objected to the video's claim that Lee should be celebrated for his role in suppressing the slave revolt led by John Brown in 1859.[18] As of January 2021 the video is no longer available on PragerU's website or YouTube, but remains available in an archived form at the Wayback Machine.[31] Revised item 7The accuracy and reliability of PragerU's videos has been extensively questioned, with several sources referring to PragerU videos as containing propaganda[19][20][21][22] and misinformation.[23][24] Specific criticisms levelled at PragerU videos have included the claims that they perpetuate views associated with the far-right or alt-right,[25][26][27][28][29] contain controversial speakers,[30] including those linked to the far right,[31][32][33][34] promote racism[35] and Islamophobia,[36] promote misleading information related to the COVID-19 pandemic,[37][38][39][40] and contain misleading information related to climate change.[41][42][43][44] Noteduck (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC) Sorry, I meant to make my comments here as per Robert's instructions. Given that the JTA is a well-established mainstream media source and Bethany Mandel is an experienced and accomplished journalist,[32] I think substantive arguments are needed as to why this source should not be included. There are three additional sources referring to the PragerU videos with Owen Benjamin, by the way. For those who didn't see it, this was my previous response to Hipal:
Noteduck (talk) 03:03, 20 January 2021 (UTC) Hipal, the Jewish Telegraph Agency is a storied and credible source and Bethany Mandel is a highly experienced journalist with a formidable resume who has written for multiple high-profile publications[33], and she is particularly known for her work on Jewish issues and anti-semitism. Yes it's an opinion piece, but all the Mandel source is used for is making two fairly incontrovertible points (1) that Owen Benjamin is an anti-semite (2) that his appearances on PragerU helped him maintain some visibility in the conservative world. The piece is highly detailed and coherently written, extensively sourced, and actually reached out to Benjamin for comment. The source is clearly attributed and not in Wiki's voice, and there are four other sources in the paragraph, each of which aligns with the Mandel article. Benjamin's videos for PragerU received 5.4 million views.[34] I'm not sure what universe we're in if PragerU making videos in spring 2018 with someone who was exposed as an anti-semite in October of that year[35] and later as a holocaust denier(!) doesn't belong on their page, especially when 5 sources have reported on it. Anyway, your turn to offer a substantive rebuttal Noteduck (talk) 07:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Statement by HipalPlease remove the opinion piece published by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency per the article talk page discussions and comments here. What other references are similarly poor and need removal before this can move on? --Hipal (talk) 23:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Statement by SpringeeIn reply to Hipal's comment above, I agree the use of an OpEd from the JTA was a problem. However, as I said before this simply makes the RfC question weaker and more likely to be rejected. If I were on the other side of this content dispute I would want to make my RfC's as strong as possible. Springee (talk) 02:15, 20 January 2021 (UTC) Eleventh statement by moderatorI have prepared a revised draft RFC. I am prepared to post it, so that we can then see if there are any other issues, or I can make it available for one final review. I don't want what happened with the last draft RFC, which was a premature argument about the merits of the points in the RFC. Do you want me to go ahead and post the RFC, or to provide a draft copy of the RFC for comments, or what? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editorsNoteduckHi Robert - yep, I'm happy to see the new revised draft RfC. Noteduck (talk) 21:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC) ShinealittlelightSpringeeHipalI'm against the RfC because poor if not unreliable sources are still being used and the basic policy of WP:RS appears to be ignored, as have the basic instructions for behavior here. [36][37] [38]. If we can't agree on references, we're not going to agree on anything that's based upon them. --Hipal (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC) MasterTriangle. Twelfth Statement by Moderator (Prager)One editor objects to the RFC because they state that the sources are unreliable. The reliability of the sources is one of the issues to be determined by the RFC. If the community agrees to accept the additions, that implies that the community is accepting the reliability of the sources. Conversely, other editors can argue that the sources are unreliable as a reason to omit the proposed additions. I will be adding a draft of the revised RFC for information purposes only. Please do not !vote in the Survey until it is moved to the talk page and becomes a real RFC. It will be at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Draft Prager RFC Twelfth Statements by Editors (Prager)NoteduckHipalAs presented, this will be a typical, if lengthy RfC not focused on discussion but on simple approval/disapproval of each proposal. We can expect superficial voting and little discussion.
Each and every reference should be individually identified in the RfC for discussion, so we can properly address reliability issues. The RfC should identify all relevant past discussions. The RfC should identify the specific content policies of concern. --Hipal (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC) SpringeeShinealittlelightMasterTriangleThirteenth statement by moderator (Prager)The RFC is running at Talk:Prager University. User:Hipal - You have the right to identify all past discussions, and to identify the specific content policies. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC) User:Noteduck had the right to put their own RFC forward, with or without my involvement. Behavioral problems may be reported at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC) Thirteenth statements by editors (Prager)Back-and-forth discussion
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![]() | Closing at filing editor's request after redirecting to a more appropriate venue. Nightenbelle (talk) 23:45, 27 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview There has been extensive discussion at Talk: Lana Del Rey regarding the inclusion of recent social media comments reported by reliable sources in the "Public image" section. This was extensively discussed, then resolved via RfC establishing overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS to include it. Two days ago, disgruntled users from the original discussion began edit-warring, which I reverted, before it was reverted once again by Alextwa. After leaving a message on their talk page, Alextwa took it upon themselves as a "reviewer" to "reviewer" the dispute that had been resolved, establishing an opinion that violated consensus and proceeded to "rework" the page as such. Despite multiple requests. Alextwa has provided no verifiable WP policy showing that they, as a self-initiated reviewer, can do such a thing against majority and thoroughly discussed consensus, and refuses to listen to the otherwise. The content in question is essentially a summary of Del Rey's comments regarding former Present Trump as well as her social media remarks about her new album cover, both widely reported in the media for starting controversy - nothing in the text suggests wrongdoing, it's a mere summary of the comments followed by "this incited commentary" etc. etc. relevant to her public image, as again, established by previous consensus. While I admit to have reverted more than nessacary due to my own misunderstanding - Alextwa refuses to listen to requests about consensus and continues to implement their own idea of their own accord. Regardless of my opinion, majority consensous has already been established. For a resolved matter, this is incredibly frustrating - I questioned if this was the right noticeboard to bring the dispute to, but after light investigation, it seemed the most appropriate. Is Alextwa truly within his rights as a reviewer to repeatedly ignore user consensus and insert themselves into a resolved matter? How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Lana_Del_Rey#Written_Like_a_Gossip_Column Talk:Lana_Del_Rey#RfC_about_the_inclusion_of_political_commentary_and_controversy_in_relation_to_Del_Rey's_page. Talk:Lana_Del_Rey#Reviewer’s_Take How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? My primary issue is if Alextwa, a reviewer, can take it upon themselves to go against established consensus and enforce their own "take" regarding content already resolved and discussed. If this is above this page's pay-grade, I'm happy to go elsewhere. Thank you, and have a wonderful week. Summary of dispute by AlextwaPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Lana Del Rey discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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![]() | Closed as failed. Being discussed at the edit-warring noticeboard. Editors began edit-warring over the article after the volunteer opinion was provided. While I had said that I would not mediate the dispute, there was still discussion, and besides edit-warring is never permitted. Survivors should discuss the article at the article talk page. A Request for Comments is recommended, but should be neutrally worded. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:57, 30 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Nutrisystem is a commercial provider of weight-loss products. This dispute relates to how we present a study on Nutrisystem's efficacy in the lead. The lead in the article for Nutrisystem describes a systematic review in 2014 that examined previous studies on Nutrisystem's efficacy. The systematic review concluded that, as a weight-loss tool, Nutrisystem "demonstrates better short-term weight loss than control/education and behavioral counseling." However, the systematic review could not draw any conclusion about Nutrisystem's long-term efficacy because there were no long term studies on the matter. To quote the systematic review again: "we identified no long-term trial results. We conclude that Nutrisystem shows promise, but the lack of long-term RCTs prohibits definitive conclusions." User:Alexbrn is, intentionally or not, misrepresenting this systematic review in a fashion that implies Nutrisystem has been proven to be ineffective. Most recently, he has edited the page to say, in Wikipedia's voice, that "The authors recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence [than Nutrisystem], in preference." This is pure invention on his part; this claim appears nowhere in the source, which concludes that "Nutrisystem shows promise, but the lack of long-term RCTs prohibits definitive conclusions.".
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I suggest you do two things. First, after reading my complaint, read the systematic review carefully. Second, determine whether whether the two sentences added to the article by Alex comport with Wikipedia policy concerning NPOV, WP:V, and OR. Alex's sentences are as follows: →A systematic review of 2015 said there was tentative evidence that at three months that Nutrisystem resulted in at least 3.8% more weight loss than a control group, but no good evidence of any benefit in the longer term. The authors recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence, in preference." Summary of dispute by LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Comment by PaleoNeonateA few days ago I posted as third opinion on the talk page, but feel free to request for a fourth, possibly via WP:3O if the outcome is to close this thread, —PaleoNeonate – 20:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC) Summary of dispute by AlexbrnI'd be happy to participate if the OP withdraws the accusations of bad faith. DRN should not be be a forum to enable and formalize un-WP:CIVIL behaviour. Alexbrn (talk) 05:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
References
Nutrisystem discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderator (Nutrisystem)I will try to moderate this dispute. Please read the rules. I will restate a few of the rules. Be civil and concise. Do not edit the article while moderated discussion is in progress. Do not respond to each other, unless I provide a space for back-and-forth discussion. Respond to me on behalf of the community. The first question is whether both editors want me to give a non-binding Third Opinion. If so, I will review the materials in detail and provide an opinion, and then this case will be closed, because I will no longer be neutral. If either editor wants moderated discussion rather than a third opinion, I will try to provide moderation. So: What method of dispute resolution will we use? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Nutrisystem)Second statement by moderator (Nutrisystem)I have read the history and the discussion, and I have read the systematic review, with a focus on the abstract and the conclusions. I think that it is best for the article to state what the systematic review says, without any attempt to elaborate on or infer from what it says. See the policies against synthesis having the nature of original research. It appears that there weren't any long-term (more than 3 months) randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of Nutrisystem. It appears that any conclusion about the long-term effectiveness of Nutrisystem isn't based on the evidence that isn't there, but I will ask again what the question is. The objective of content dispute resolution is to improve the article. Is there a specific question about wording of what the article should say? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Nutrisystem)
Do the following two sentences in the current Nutrisystem article—"A systematic review of 2015 said there was tentative evidence that at three months that Nutrisystem resulted in at least 3.8% more weight loss than a control group, but no good evidence of any benefit in the longer term. The authors recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence, in preference—entail improper synthesis and OR? If so, why? LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08 (talk) 18:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC) Third statement by moderator (Nutrisystem)That statement is really sort of borderline. It goes a little beyond the systematic review in terms of what it says and doesn't say about Nutrisystem. The second sentence is a slight stretch. They didn't compare Nutrisystem to Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig. They said it was permitted to recommend Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig. They didn't compare them to Nutrisystem. They were very careful in what they did and didn't say, and we should be also. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Nutrisystem)Yes, strictly speaking the review compares 11 diets to control/education or behavioral counseling - and not directly against each other. So could we say something like': "Nutrisystem was one of 11 diets reviewed, but of these only Jenny Craig and Weightwatchers were considered by the reviewers as suitable for referral" or, more simply and avoiding naming the other diets, "the evidence for nutrisystem was not sufficient for it to be recommended by the reviewers" or somesuch? Alexbrn (talk) Fourth statement by moderator (Nutrisystem)I was asked to offer an opinion. I have offered an opinion. I said that in that case I would not be able to act as a moderator because I would compromise my neutrality, and I am not able to act as a moderator. We should not say anything about the systematic review that is not exactly supported by the systematic review. Even a modest rewording of what the systematic review said runs the risk of being synthesis having the character of original research. You may continue discussion on the article talk page, or you may use a Request for Comments. I am willing to assist in formulating an RFC if that is requested. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2021 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Nutrisystem)
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