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24 June 2021

KOAD-LP (closed)

  • KOAD-LP – Relist. I can't begin to cogently summarize everything that was said here, but there's clear consensus that this was a WP:BADNAC. I'm going to back out the close and relist it. @Superastig: If you want to wade into closing the more controversial discussions, WP:RfA is always looking for new candidates, but if you don't want to go that route, I would encourage you to be more conservative with WP:NAC. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:31, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
KOAD-LP (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

A crystal clear WP:BADNAC. Not only was the discussion controversial and the closer a non-admin, the closer has a noted bias towards keeping radio station articles (see ongoing discussions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DXFU, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DXLJ, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DYBK) and as such mis-applied policy (WP:NMEDIA does not even have the weight of an SNG and does not apply when an article fails GNG.) The closer also did not revert their close when asked. I am asking that this either be overturned and closed by an administrator, or re-listed (though it would be the third re-list.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SportingFlyer (talk • contribs) 17:52, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Relist. As numerous closes have explained, arguments based on WP:NMEDIA (aka WP:BCAST), which is not endorsed by the community, are not policy-based because, to quote one closer, "The phrasing of GNG indicates it applies without explicit exemption, and an explanatory supplement just does not have capability to grant that." The NMEDIA-based keep !votes should thus have been heavily discounted or ignored altogether as being contrary to policy. See WP:NOTAVOTE. And regardless, these AfDs have been quite contentious, so this was indeed a WP:BADNAC. There are other issues (the close reads like a WP:SUPERVOTE, and, as the petitioner above notes, the closer was arguably INVOLVED) as well. I'd be tempted to just !vote overturn, but in this case I'd rather relist in case an alternative to deletion (e.g. a redirect to List of radio stations in California) or some GNG-qualifying coverage can be identified. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist - I agree with the assessment made by @Extraordinary Writ. Upon further reading NMEDIA, it isn't even a SNG so should not be considered to outweigh GNG. As I didn't feel it passed WP:BCAST anyway it should be relisted for additional feedback. There was no clear consensus reached and, as pointed out, the non-admin closer has a close affiliation with these type articles. They may not have been involved directly in this discussion but are an involved editor in similar cases and should have waited for an uninvolved admin to close a disputed AfD. --ARoseWolf 19:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per nom. BADNAC. WP:Supervote, and the closer’s response on their talk page reinforces the Supervote impression and is generally a very poor response by a closer. I do not have confidence in this editor closing discussions. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:26, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This response], the "keep" arguments are stronger and do have merit whatsoever. So, you have no choice but to drop the stick and accept the consensus is incompatible with WP:ADMINACCT standards, and consequently User:Superastig should be at least chastised, and asked to not close contentious discussions. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:42, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • PUT DOWN THE STICK SportingFlyer has made it very clear in that very AfD how they feel about radio station articles, this one in particular, and how they feel about NMEDIA. Constantly "moving the goalposts" (their words, not mine) on anything and not willing to compromise. When the final !vote was 3-1 to keep and they had beat what was a once good horse to death with a STICK, they come here. Wasting the community's time at best, FORUMSHOPPING at worst. Give it a rest. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SmokeyJoe: SportingFlyer's bias is relevant he is not willing, at all, to compromise, and "moves the goalposts" in the very AfD he wants us to relist. This is classic being a poor loser. His !vote lost and now he's complaining to the refs (DelRev) that the losing goal (his !vote) wasn't counted more times than the winning goals (the keep !votes). Sorry, that's not how AfDs or sports works. He lost the AfD...and the game. It's over, move on. His bias continues to show from his !vote at the RfC. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:25, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It’s over? You sound user like the closer. I don’t care about radio stations or any of the details, but that was plainly a bad close, and a worse response on their talk page. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:27, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • SmokeyJoe, correction. SBKSPP commented on that discussion only once and that was his vote (not an accusation), days before the discussion was relisted. I even checked its revision history. Therfore, SBKSPP never accused MBisanz for such. You must be hallucinating. ASTIG😎 (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 05:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SmokeyJoe: You claimed we labled Mbisanz as a poor closer at the listed AfD. That's an accusation. Show your work. You are wandering around this DRV like you are in charge of it. You are arguing with an admin who is basically doing what you are wanting...to relist it. It's like you are out for blood. If anyone is showing bias, it's you and it's very worrying and it's very bad. Maybe take a step back. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:15, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
User:Superastig, User:Neutralhomer, here, in the post to which I responded, User:SBKSPP wrote "... unlike the similar discussion which should've been closed as NC". Seven hours prior, User:MBisanz closed it as "Delete". This is a pretty plain accusation by User:SBKSPP that User:MBisanz mis-closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DYIK, and I strongly disagree with that accusation. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe: This is what SBKSPP said, verbatim: Neutralhomer's argument is spot on. The closing of this discussion is fair unlike the similar discussion which should've been closed as NC, but the nom insisted the closer to have it relisted. If there's an editor who has a bias, it's SportingFlyer, not Neutralhomer or Astig.
He's not accusing MBisanz of anything. He's accusing SportingFlyer of having a bias. You are reading something that isn't there. Now I am telling you to back away. Molehill meet Mountain. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:12, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Should the similar discussion have been closed as NC? SBKSPP appears to say so in passing, in conflict with how it was closed. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe: The point is moot. Because at this point, it doesn't matter. You are grasping at straws. SBKSPP never accused MBisanz of anything, so it doesn't matter if he "appears" to say he likes pineapple on his pizza. The point is moot. Either apologize to the three of us or step back, you are far too close you can't even see the leaves at this point, not alone the trees or the damned forest. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:40, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from closer: I did not vote in the discussion. I only provided a clear and fair explanation in closing the discussion. I closed the consensus based on how strong the arguments are and the "keep" votes seems to be stronger since they do have merits whatsoever. And Neutralhomer is right as he has demonstrated the use of NMEDIA in the previous AfDs. Therefore, I have no bias towards keeping radio station articles whatsoever. And it's true no matter how many times the nominator complains all day long. ASTIG😎 (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 01:48, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist as BADNAC. This same notability discussion has played out in a few different venues, including these radio station AfDs and discussion over the status of WP:NMEDIA, and Superastig has participated in enough of that broader conversation that he probably should not have closed this discussion. The only way that we are going to resolve this problem is by bringing NMEDIA's status to RfC (and I'm about to do that, been a bit busy of late). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist as BADNAC. Relist and specify that the closer be an admin.
      • The close was contentious in both a quantitative way and a qualitative way. A close is quantitatively contentious if the numeric !vote counts for Keep and Delete (or some other combination of !vote choices) are roughly equal. In such a case, a non-admin really should let an admin close the XFD. The close was also qualitatively contentious in that there was vigorous back-and-forth debate. One of the functions of administrators is to be neutral when other editors are not being neutral. The closer meant well, but used poor judgment in closing this discussion.
      • The primary function of DRV is to resolve specific disputes about deletion. A secondary function of DRV should be to identify shortcomings or weak areas in the notability guidelines and other deletion guidelines. DRV will not resolve any such issues, but occasionally we will notice that particular topics come to DRV more often than they should, because the deletion guidelines are ambiguous, poorly written, or in need of clarification.
      • Media notability and the status of media notability are an area in which the notability guideline is contentious.
      • If User:Sammi Brie publishes an RFC on the status of NMEDIA, she will be doing Wikipedia a service that may facilitate future deletion discussions.

Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Relist The closer's judgment is, unfortunately, skewed in all things radio media (apart from the examples above, please also see this AfD where it is, apparently, common sense to keep poorly sourced articles because it exists. ——Serial 10:35, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist As a bad non-admin closure.Jackattack1597 (talk) 11:37, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist - clearly not an unbiased close. Onel5969 TT me 12:27, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I initially thought of voting to overturn as NC. However, Neutralhomer has made lots of improvements in the article as of recent and and Astig has no participation in the discussion except to close it. Relisting the debate is discouraged as prolonging the discussion will result to a NC. Therefore, the closure of the discussion as keep is an unbiased conclusion, whether the nom likes it or not. SBKSPP (talk) 00:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anyone, admin or no, could rightly have closed that as "no consensus". The problem here is not that Astig was unqualified to close the discussion, and it wasn't that the matter was so difficult that only one of our hallowed muftis may decide it. It was the imposition of the closer's niche view on how the notability of radio stations is determined. A relist would be permissible, but I'd suggest that the DRV closer considers relisting it and re-closing it immediately, because the outcome's obvious and there's been more than enough participation.—S Marshall T/C 12:03, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The outcome's less obvious than it seems - while the vote count was 3-2 keep, there were two other users who commented on the GNG, the keep !votes aren't strong, and the discussion nuanced. No consensus isn't necessarily wrong here - it certainly wouldn't have led to a DRV - I wouldn't say it's obvious if a closer engages with the discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 13:21, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been asked on my talk as an uninvolved admin to take a look; will do. —valereee (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Due to being asked by an involved participant, you are now involved.
    If the AfD is relister, and lingers and needs a closure request, the place to ask is Wikipedia:Closure requests. It is improper to select your own choice of closer. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    SJ, that is not true. Being asked to review does not make me involved. The requester said they chose me at random, and the way they chose me is completely believable as I'd indeed been editing heavily at ANI just prior to their request. I have limited interest in AfD and zero in radio station articles, and as far as I know have barely interacted with NH. —valereee (talk) 14:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It makes you canvassed, sort of the same thing. It should not be done this way. There are some extraordinary allegations and denials of bias at play, and here someone claims to have done something “at random”. Technically, someone asserting a lack of bias and an ability at randomness is dubious. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Asking an uninvolved admin to come in is not canvassing. I'll note that my intent both here and at the AfD in question are the exact opposite of what NH would prefer, so if they're secretly trying to put a thumb on the scale, they're not doing it right. —valereee (talk) 14:23, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, here's what it looks like to me. The discussion could have been closed as no consensus, probably not as consensus to keep. I don't personally see the need for relisting, as it was relisted twice, but as that's the clear consensus here, I won't unclose and immediately reclose.
    I am not experienced in the reopening of AfD discussions (not even sure I've closed one myself, don't have an automated tool installed for that), and because of the DRV template added after the closing, I can't just undo the close. If someone here who does understand how this should be done will walk me through it, I'd be happy to close this as consensus to relist and try. Happy to install a gadget to make it easier for you to guide me, if you'll tell me which of the several AfD helpers I should install. —valereee (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    How this should be done, is that nothing should be done until this DRV discussion is formally closed. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:23, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is exactly what I'm offering to do: formally close this as clear consensus to unclose and relist. I discussed here instead of simply doing that because, as I've explained, I don't know how to reopen that AfD, and I don't want to close this and then just leave in the middle of the job. So before I did so, I wanted to ask if someone would help me figure out how to complete the process. —valereee (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please just respect the process and wait for the seven days to run, or for an experienced DRV closer to close this early. It's really not a good look to close a discussion because a participant asked you to, even if it's not technically canvassing. SportingFlyer T·C 17:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I will fully admit that I contacted Valereee as this is a SNOW Relist. This is clear. There is no "process" here. No need to drag this out further. It's a SNOW. So, even though I admittedly disagree with it and I admitted that, I asked Valereee if she would take a look. I even said if she would feel like not getting involved, that was OK as well. I chose her at random as she was the first admin who had edited in the "view history" on ANI when I clicked. So, clearly the definition of random. There is no secret agenda, nothing dubious. It's a SNOW relist with a couple Keeps. It is what it is. I am just moving the process along. If you feel I have overstepped my bounds, Valereee is an admin, she can act accordingly, I have no issues there. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:05, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:ANI is not a random page, but a drama page. The last admin editor of the ANI drama page is not the definition of a random selection. That is NOT the way to request a SNOW closure at WP:DRV, a contemplative review page. This is not just a simple relist, some of us have voiced explicit criticism and lack of confidence in the closer as a closer, noting their word choice in the close and in their responses on their user_talk page, which is a proper use of DRV, and other participants may yet comment and then the DRV closer may comment. The last ANI admin editor may be quicker to act. The proper place to request a SNOW close is either here in the discussion or at WP:ANRFC. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:40, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @SmokeyJoe: Random admin, not random page. I knew there would be admins there. Also, admins I have never interacted with, like Valereee. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This is the weirdest thing I've seen in quite a while. I don't have any idea what's going on here, but I'm happy to step away. —valereee (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Valereee: You and me both. Feel free, my apologizes. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries. It's like a horror movie in here lol...DON'T GO IN THERE! WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? —valereee (talk) 01:56, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Inviting a specific admin to close a specific discussion is a very old no no. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    What exactly are you implying,@SmokeyJoe? And can you please provide specific policy that discusses inviting an uninvolved admin in being somehow not good? —valereee (talk) 02:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Valereee, I imply nothing about you.
    I note that an involved editor cannot plausibly claim to make the random selection as they claimed. A bias in the stated method exists, it is NOT random. There is also the ANRFC proper method that Neutralhomer is now informed of. I note that you are an experience admin, and a recent regular at ANRFC, and I expected that you would agree that a closure request is better placed at ANRFC than delivered to a single pseudo-random admin.
    If anything is driving me here, it is the notion of ANI having purview over DRV, implicit in what Neutralhomer did.
    There is no need for rush here. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    So no specific policy you can answer me with? That's fine. I agree there's no rush. When I was requested to close a discussion that seemed SNOW, I figured why not? The general atmosphere here is pretty troubling. —valereee (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In a two-sided dispute, we don't want one of the sides to hand-pick the closer. Even if the closer is completely innocent of bias, it matters that the closer is seen by all to be impartial. It really ought to have been possible for SmokeyJoe to say this without giving offence, but, despite his many excellent qualities, he isn't perfect and I think he has an opportunity here to reflect on his word choices. I hope that Valereee will come to feel comfortable here at DRV: it's a place that most active sysops end up visiting from time to time.
I agree that policy needs rewriting to say all this more clearly and I do not think that WP:INVOLVED is the policy to use; the correct process is set out most clearly in Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Requesting a close, and I think the issue of hand-picking discussion closers ought to be covered at WP:FORUMSHOP.—S Marshall T/C 16:48, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@S Marshall: As one can see here, Valereee was not a "hand-pick[ed]" discussion closer (and I really wish folks would stop saying that). In fact, she was picked at random, about at random as one could get here at Wikipedia. Once again, I clicked on ANI's "View History" and selected the first admin from the top. That happened to be Valereee. There was no "hand-pick[ing]" involved, it was random and it was done to facilitate the quick relisting of what then was and still is a SNOW relist. SmokeyJoe made it quite impossible for that to happen, so this DRV is playing out in real time and will wait until a closer gets around to it. Valereee (as she has explained) was going to close this discussion in his (and others) favor...against me. I was intentionally calling an admin to close a discussion in the favor of the opposing party. So...yeah. Why, if I was "FORUMSHOPPING", have an admin do that?
I would appreciate if everyone could, please, stop dragging Valereee's and I's names through the mud and distorting the truth to fit their own timelines and agendas. This is not what took place and it's very easy to source what did. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:07, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm neither dragging your names through the mud nor distorting the truth. I'm simply saying that because you're a disputant, it's not OK for you to select a closer using any methodology. I fully accept that your intentions were pure and so were Valereee's, but surely you can understand why this is a problem.—S Marshall T/C 19:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little kindness goes a long way. I suggested a relist because I was concerned about previous discussions by the closer of this AfD in which they were explicitly for keeping all radio station articles because, in essence, they exist, as has been discussed in other places. This AfD and others have generated discussion at the talk page of NMedia about the need for clear and decisive inclusion directions. That is a positive thing. It isn't an easy process but it is getting there. I, personally, have no issue with @Neutralhomer inviting an uninvolved admin here to review and possibly close at the appropriate time. That is not canvassing so lets drop that please. I made a similar request once because a discussion was being drawn out too long. The key word is "appropriate". That is generally after seven days if it is a contentious discussion. Is there more to discuss though? I believe most of us have made the points we agree with or disagree with pretty clearly. If there isn't more to discuss then make a decision and close this DRV. There is no reason to extend it longer than it has to be. These discussions can be torturous for some involved, especially when they have invested so much time in a particular subject that is being disputed. I think we are being a little uptight about things and I get it and understand that it will happen but let's back away a little and not get so wound up. No one hand-picked a closer. No one broke a policy or rule and no one should admonished for something that hasn't happened yet. @Neutralhomer asked an independent admin to review and possibly close. I believe @valereee has enough experience to make the right decision at the right time and to voice concerns are ask for assistance if needed. I know it's difficult to read tones from text but it is possible and the tone here has been one of agitation and frustration from both sides at times. We need to pull back and remember we are all human and, from what I can tell, we are all here to make the encyclopedia better, even if we have a different idea of how to get there. --ARoseWolf 19:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From my perspective, I don't see this at all as my name being dragged through the mud. I think it's a valid question that in what's clearly (though I didn't realize it when I came in here) a situation that is full of suspicion. Perhaps if I'd walked in and announced that I truly was completely uninvolved. NH made a random selection, but they could hardly have made a better one. I have (as far as I can easily recall) no involvement at DRV, none at radio stations (other than at DYK), and no history of either inclusionist nor deletionist bias. I don't think I've ever expressed an opinion at Media Notability questions, as far as I can recall. If someone wants to clarify at WP:Closing discussions that it's not okay to simply go post a request to an apparently-noninvolved admin's talk for help, I'd be interested seeing in that RfC. My own instinct is that what you should actively want here is someone like me. Other than the fact I don't actually know how to unclose an AfD, of course. Minor drawback. :D —valereee (talk) 21:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@S Marshall: Honestly, no. I have never, in 16 years on this site, seen a discussion like this. Never. This is the most unusual and down-right weird discussion I have seen. To be honest, why there is such a push to not have this closed immediately as a SNOW relist is beyond me. It's like you all don't want it closed.
@Valereee: Just seemed to me, that everyone saying I "selected" or "hand-picked" you, it sounds unseemly. It was about as random as one could get. That's mud-draggin' to me. It's cool if you disagree, I felt you needed someone to stick up for you since you weren't here to defend yourself. :)
@ARoseWolf: Actually, I am going to take your advice and step away from this one. This is just insane. I've never seen anything like it. Personally, with the exception of Valeree and you, this entire thread needs to go to ANI or RfC. It's a gigantic and distrubing mess. Stepping back...Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:51, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We don't snow-close stuff very often because DRV's aren't very appealable. (On a tiny number of occasions there have been appeals on ANI, but in practice we don't get overturned there.) In matters of content, DRV is the "highest court", so to speak. So we're very careful about ensuring that everyone has the chance to make their case. There's provision to snow-close things that are totally obvious but it's only invoked when the nom is a sockpuppet or behaving disruptively. We want good faith users to have time and space to talk and we want a decision that everyone has confidence in. See Meatball:FairProcess for a lot of the thought that underlies DRV.
Discussions of this kind are commonplace here and this isn't weird or scary.—S Marshall T/C 00:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@S Marshall, what's troubling here is an uninvolved admin, called in by the person who is on the opposite side of what looks to be a clear snow close, offers to snow close it so everyone can just stop wasting their time, and gets falsely -- and baselessly -- accused of coming in "involved". If instead someone had said, "Yes, this looks like a snow close, but it's only been a couple of days, let's let it go the full seven since this is DRV," it wouldn't have been troubling at all. I'd have been like, "Oh, didn't realize snow closes were that unusual here even when it's the person the close is going against asking for one." And I'd have been off on my way. —valereee (talk) 10:46, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Oh, yes, I do take that point and I rather agree with it. SmokeyJoe referred to WP:INVOLVED and I don't think he should have done that: it wasn't the right shortcut and it's caused some needless raising of the hackles. I'm sure that was not his intent, and I want to assure you that SmokeyJoe is in fact a decent and kindly man whose input is, almost invariably, both helpful and well-thought-out.—S Marshall T/C 11:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I have no doubt. Just a glitch, now behind us. —valereee (talk) 15:21, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neutralhomer, I apologize, that wasn't meant as a criticism of you, and I appreciate you defending me. I just wanted to make it clear that I was fine. :) —valereee (talk) 10:54, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neutralhomer, it's an art that is difficult to master, even for those most experienced. I don't just assume good faith, I give you that ground to call your own. Valereee, thank you for reviewing and watching over the process to the degree that you have. I think every person who has offered input here is an amazing editor, even if we disagree on certain points. --ARoseWolf 13:01, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee: No offense taken there and no worries, I was just explaining. :) Mom and Dad taught me right, always defend those who can't defend themselves. :) Again, no worries, we're good. :)
@ARoseWolf: Yeah, this is just a wild discussion and I have definitely un-watchlisted it. I was pinged back, but this is one for the ages. I have other irons in the fire to work on, so I am going to do that. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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