2018 UPSL season (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The original deletion request was that the article fails WP:GNG. Six Seven (corrected by Trackinfo) Six (one person voted twice) (corrected by SportingFlyer users voted for keep with two for delete, with several keep votes providing links to sources showing notability. Closing admin used WP:NOTVOTE to delete the article and would not reconsider the action on her User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#2018_UPSL_season_AfD. I'm bringing this RfD because I believe the keep votes agreed the article followed WP:GNG (ongoing, diverse and independent media coverage of an ongoing event - league seasons are considered events per WP:FOOTY). SportingFlyer (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2018 (UTC) SportingFlyer (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Closer's comment I urge reviewers to read the discssion at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#2018_UPSL_season_AfD (permalink).
  I was disappointed by the claimant's repeated misunderstandings of policy and guideline, esp the persistence of arguments based on inherited notability and/or OSE, including one which claimed to understand WP:OSE and then made a classic other-stuff-exists argument. I was also disappointed by the personal attack on me (at the bottom), and by the DRV-requster's unfounded allegation of canvassing against the AfD nominator.
  It is clear that a small group of editors feels v passionate about this topic, but WP:NOTABILITY is not weighed by editorial passion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment Since it was brought up, I would like to point out I did redact the canvassing statement. I had canvassing confused with WP:BLUD. I also don't care if this article is deleted or not. I had only passing familiarity with the league until I saw the deletion request for a previous season. I only care since I believe the sources show it passes WP:GNG. I'll go away now. SportingFlyer (talk) 04:21, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Userfied. Note that per request[1] from the article's creator, I WP:USERFIED the page to User:Bashum104/2018 UPSL season. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:03, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn a poor close and relist to hope for a better discussion. The nominator made some worthwhile arguments that we should not have articles where no sources cover the topic as a whole but only cover individual aspects of the topic. Assuming no violation of WP:SYNTH that is an opinion (an interesting one and one that has clearly persuaded the closer) but it is not, so far as I know, an established policy or guideline. WP:NSEASONS doesn't seem to apply in this particular case. I would genuinely like to know is there is such guidance somewhere but I don't think this AFD (plus this and this) was adequate to establish the principle. Of the praised deletes, the first declared there was no evidence of notability but contrary evidence was provided so leaving the issue to be resolved. The second delete by saying "Keep relevant info on main page and break that info out ..." was effectively proposing a (temporary?) merge. The final comment "I have yet to see a meaningful 'keep' !vote" was bizarre in the light of the quality of the commentator's own !vote and did not apply because the keeps commented (rightly or wrongly) on the presence of appropriate references – no one was unwise enough to say they liked the article. Thincat (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep Consensus was that the sources provided were sufficient to establish notability. Closer's statement to the contrary is either a WP:SUPERVOTE or a clear misinterpretation of consensus. Perhaps you could argue that the sources were insufficient - some participants did. But overall consensus was that they were sufficient, so the AfD should have been closed as keep. Smartyllama (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse as nom WP:SYNTH issues remain, as the sources provided attempted to establish notability as a collection of reports on individual teams rather than establishing notability for the league season itself. Significant coverage of the season remains unproven. Also some concerns regarding WP:INHERIT and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS remain. A relatively similar precedent has already been set, and is worth reading through. The closing admin articulated a better example for the kind of source that is needed than I. From User talk:BrownHairedGirl: An article about the league season would take an overview. It would discuss the league as a whole and it would discuss multiple teams rather than focusing on one or 2 teams. The fact is that the article did not meet the necessary policies that Wikipedia requires, and consensus cannot overrule policy. As a side note, a substantial amount of argumentation has been based on the assumption that a majority vote should overturn the decision, but this is not the case. Jay eyem (talk) 15:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Quick comment Arguing in the alternative, I think relisting would also be an appropriate course of action. Jay eyem (talk) 05:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no objection to relisting if we want to go that route. DRV guidelines state relisting rather than retaining the original outcome can be appropriate when there is no consensus as to whether said outcome was correct, and I would prefer that here if it comes down to it. Smartyllama (talk) 15:36, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• The question at hand is if there is an on-point enough guideline/policy which can be used to justify overcoming the numeric consensus at the AfD. Delete !voters felt that coverage of each part of the season and of the league-as-a-whole was not enough to justify an article on the season. Keep !voters disagreed. I don't believe NSEASONS says much (this isn't a "top professional league" from what I can tell nor is it about a individual team). There clearly are reliable sources about the topic. In fact the whole topic appears to be largely covered by RSes. The problem is that no one source covers the topic-as-a-whole. So there are Synth arguments. This type of thing is exactly what AfD discussions are supposed to sort out. Given the lack of clearly on-point policies/guidelines to address this situation I think we have to go with the !voters. NC would have been a reasonable outcome--because there are two reasonable sets of arguments here irrelevant of the numbers. But given the numbers, I think keep was the better outcome. So overturn to keep seems like the right way forward. Hobit (talk) 16:05, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 16:21, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I fixed the header. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 16:21, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: This article has been already userified to the page creator. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 16:41, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - good close. GiantSnowman 17:17, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, no explanation provided. Smartyllama (talk) 17:25, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @GiantSnowman: Can you explain why this close is a good close in detail, please? Thank you! Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 17:34, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because they utilised WP:NOTAVOTE, something which many editors fail to grasp. There is no significant coverage; instead a bunch of overzealous US soccer fans think they can bombard the article (and related discussions) with trivial weblinks and that gives it notability. It doesn't. GiantSnowman 08:35, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn I can see where the closer is coming from, but I'm thinking something similar to Hobit here. There seems to be agreement that there is plenty of coverage on aspects of the season, such as the progress of individual teams within it. The Keep commenters felt that was sufficient to establish notability, the Delete commenters felt it wasn't and some higher-level coverage was necessary. The closer is allowed to weight arguments according to strength but they aren't allowed to substitute their judgement for that of the participants, and this does look dangerously close to a judgement call to me. It looks like the season is due to start in a month or so, which may well make this decision obsolete anyway. Hut 8.5 19:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This was my first time proposing something for deletion, and I'm curious to hear the personal opinion of another admin on my argument that WP:SYNTH was not met and WP:GNG was not established, and whether I have mis-understood these policies/guidelines. My understanding was that you could not agglomerate sources together to reach a conclusion that wasn't stated in the sources. Most of the sources were just about new teams being added to the league, which does nothing to show notability of that season itself. I also have concerns that this constitutes routine coverage, especially for a league at this level where new teams are entering and leaving all of the time. I hope I'm not bludgeoning too much and I apologize if I am, I just have a lot of free time. Jay eyem (talk) 21:57, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:SYNTH does not concern notability, it concerns original research. Wikipedia is not supposed to contain original research, and SYNTH is a form of original research. I don't think anyone is claiming that the 2018 UPSL season page contained any original research. Therefore, SYNTH is inapplicable here. Bashum104 (talk) 22:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• (edit conflict)No, I don't think you're bludgeoning at all. I don't have a strong opinion on the merits of the deletion nomination, admins who close discussions are expected to determine the consensus of the people who took part in the discussion rather than to provide a casting vote. You're absolutely right that articles can't put together sources to form conclusions which weren't found in them, but it's not clear to me that this article was doing that. And even if it was that doesn't necessarily make the subject non-notable. What you're saying is IMO a reasonable position to take on this topic, however most of the people who took part in the AfD didn't agree with it. Hut 8.5 22:23, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• WP:INHERIT (and, possibly, the WP:COATRACK essay) are maybe more on point than WP:SYNTH. To apply INHERIT in this case you need to gloss over all the examples and suggest that people are going against "Similarly, parent notability should ...". But bear in mind that these arguments to avoid are simply ones that may be weak or non-persuasive rather than ones that are invalid. See second paragraph of WP:ATA starting "Remember that a discussion rationale ...". I think it ends up as a value judgement. Thincat (talk) 08:50, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn to keep - The WP:SYNTH arguments seem to be off base here; there was no original research on the page. I also believe the WP:INHERIT arguments are not applicable because the argument for notability was not based on a "UPSL is notable therefore its seasons are notable" or similar line of reasoning. The claim by the closer seemed to be that independent, reliable, third-party sources about the season do not confer notability if they're primarily concerning one or two teams. It's not a completely unreasonable argument, but it's an original argument unbacked by any published Wikipedia policy as far as I can tell. It's also an argument that the large majority of participants in the original afd rejected. Therefore I feel that the closer overruled the consensus on the afd and improperly deleted the page Bashum104 (talk) 22:12, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep - As I was involved in the AfD, I was reluctant to comment at first. As I proposed this DRV, I have had my say in numerous places. That said, lets review: I think the WP:SYNTH was on the part of the closer. Unless it is from from the formation of the league or a controversy, you would not logically expect sources to write articles about a league. To expect articles to be written just about the league is artificially raising the bar to an obviously unlikely standard. The sources wrote about what you would expect, teams playing in the league, anticipating the upcoming season. That not trivial. We found and enumerated numerous such sources. In the process, wikilawyers bludgeoned the debate with an alphabet soup of accusations, all of which I believe were well refuted. The other yes !votes were not an echo chamber, but individual editors thoughtfully explaining what we found. I don't have a dog in this fight, its not my normal subject matter. But I have seen this kind of unfair railroad job used about subjects I do care about too often. This subject was fortunate to find several people like me to speak up. Far too often I have been the lone voice of reason against a barrage of thoughtless, serial !votes and bizarre arguments all designed to obfuscate the real issue at hand while achieving the goal to censor content from wikipedia. Somehow those meaningless votes always seem to count. Something should be done about that. It was shocking to see the argument we had clearly won overturned on such a flimsy opinion call on the part of the closer. Trackinfo (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I would like the admins viewing this discussion to take the WP:UNCIVIL behavior of this Wikipedian into account, both here and here, when considering their accusations of "Wikilawyering." The proposal for deletion was likened to "destruction," "neutralization," and "euthanization," with the proposal of deletion considered an "attack on content" with "intent to destroy." Additionally, they have referred to an administrator as an "oligarch." Jay eyem (talk) 04:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My words are public and clearly defined within the AfD and comments on the closer's talk page. I do equate a nomination to AfD, any nomination to an AfD, as an attack on the article and its intended deletion is the destruction of the content. But as part of the bludgeoning beginning here, the above user had to go the extra step and embellish with words I do not use in my normal vocabulary. "neutralization," and "euthanization," Do a word search. And here are the alphabet soup I referred to: WP:BURDEN (repeatedly), WP:ROUTINE, "reliable source" meaning WP:RS, WP:INHERIT, and ultimately WP:BADGER as if that wasn't the pot calling the kettle black, otherwise known as projection. Numerous answers, sources from local newspapers and TV stations, seemed to fall on deaf ears. WP:BLUD? 11 retorts during the debate. Bashum104's final response sums up the frustration. Trackinfo (talk) 07:54, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment a very basic understanding of linguistics would understand how the use of "euthanize", "neutralize", (these are words that you linked to here) and "destruction" have very different intended meanings than the word "deletion" and how a proposal for deletion being called an "attack" (which you continue to use unapologetically) with an "intent to destroy" is the same thing. Perhaps you should assume good faith on my part. I think you would also benefit from re-reading WP:BADGER and WP:BURDEN if you think I used them improperly. I stand by my use of all of those guidelines/policies/etc. in my argumentation. The fact is that WP:SYNTH remains an issue, and the sources you and others have claimed as sufficient for establishing the notability of that particular season are in fact not. And now you accuse me further of projection. I've already apologized for my bludgeoning above. Perhaps you could do the same for your uncivil behavior, including referring to User:GiantSnowman as an oligarch. Jay eyem (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse- The closer and the delete !voters pointed out that arguments for retaining the article hinged on the notability of other toprics, related but not the page under discussion. I can't really argue with that. Reyk _YO! 09:08, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse- how can a season article possibly be notable when it hasn't even started?!? Perhaps there will be significant coverage of the season as it progresses, but at this stage there is nothing. Fenix down (talk) 12:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nobody would deny the 2018 NFL season is notable even though it hasn't started. Of course, before you throw WP:OSE at me, that doesn't mean this season is notable even though it hasn't started, merely that it can be. Smartyllama (talk) 13:27, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quite, but in this instance I don't think sufficient sourcing has been shown that it is, plus there is a massive difference between one of the world's biggest sporting competitions and a small, regional soccer league. Fenix down (talk) 15:41, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the 2018 UPSL isn’t as notable as the 2018 NFL. That doesn’t mean the 2018 UPSL isn’t sufficiently notable to warrant its own article. Also the UPSL is a large (140+ teams), national soccer league. Bashum104 (talk) 16:57, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus was that the sourcing was sufficient. DRV isn't a second bite at the apple. It's about whether the closer interpreted consensus correctly, and I don't know how you could interpret consensus as being that the sources were insufficient. Smartyllama (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Four other 2018 American minor league soccer seasons already exist and they have not started yet; the question is notability. A season can have notability before it begins if significant coverage of it exists. SportingFlyer (talk) 20:25, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn to keep – it seems to me those in the 'keep' camp in the afd did not articulate their case particularly well or at any length as the argument (in numbers) seemed to be going their way. Quoting from Trackinfo above: "Unless it is from from the formation of the league or a controversy, you would not logically expect sources to write articles about a league. To expect articles to be written just about the league is artificially raising the bar to an obviously unlikely standard. The sources wrote about what you would expect, teams playing in the league, anticipating the upcoming season." I agree with all that. It is rather like a list: one does not insist on articles about the entire list but does expect sourcing for each item in the list. Oculi (talk) 01:00, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Relist. Based upon the article as it was originally listed a delete was OK because notability wasn't established. However the close was against the numerical vote by some margin and unfortunately the closer got mixed up between between keep/delete in the summary leading to little confidence in the actual close. The user draft has improved the article substantially and it might now pass GNG so a relist seems a good idea. Szzuk (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep. This was not so much a discussion of the notability of the season itself as a discussion of whether (and when) to spin out coverage of an individual season for a notable league into a separate article. This is mostly a matter of editorial form and discretion. As such, the expressed consensus as measured by numbers should ordinarily carry the day, as it would had this been treated as a request and discussion on the article talk page. It is not that the closer's policy analysis wasn't sound -- just that it's not sufficient here to override community sentiment. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 10:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]