- Robert Murić (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This article was not deleted following an AFD - but it should have been. Five people calling for deletion (including me, the nominator) and three calling for it to be kept. Of the three 'keepers', one said it should be kept because he will be notable in the future (violating WP:CRYSTAL) and the other two stated the article met GNG. However all five calling for deletion stated GNG was not met. To me that indicates a consensus...furthermore a further two editors (Joy and Why should I have a User Name?) commented without voting; Joy stated that "it seems to be a violation of WP:BLP1E and WP:CBALL" while Why should noted that all the news pieces were "the same" - supporting the strong claim that coverage is WP:ROUTINE and that it is all because of a single event - a young player transferring to a big club. As a side note, the article when it was created was just a blatant copy of an identical article in my sandbox! GiantSnowman 18:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 19:02, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps the time of the World Cup wasn't the best time to tell people about footballers not being notable enough :) I raised my eyebrow a bit at Scotty's 'no consensus' decision. Had he decided to interpret that 6 : 3 as a weak consensus to delete, I doubt we'd be here again. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. I don't think there was a consensus on the key point: whether the GNG could be met. Keep voters pointed out some sources that give the subject a fair degree of coverage; I might have argued against that as well, but there weren't exactly many delete voters with overwhelmingly strong arguments to the contrary. Yes, much of the coverage arose in the context of transfer business, but it was also direct coverage that addressed the subject in detail. Ultimately the GNG point didn't really go anywhere either way. 6:3 as 'no consensus' is obviously going to annoy, but I don't think it's an unreasonable call on this one. In fact, I'm inclined to think it was the better call. Of course, the article should be replaced by moving the sandbox version over it for proper attribution to GiantSnowman.--Mkativerata (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment from closing admin - I probably should have offered a rationale in the AfD for this closure, to make it more clear why I closed it the way I did. As we all know, consensus is not determined by counting votes. Here is the rationale that I offered GiantSnowman when he approached me on my talk page:
- The AFD was close enough that the vote totals (i.e., 5 to 3) didn't much matter. I looked at each side's rationale. As you said, one side claimed that he doesn't meet GNG, the other side claimed that he does. So, at that point I need to look at the strength of each side's argument. The keep voters show that there are quite a lot of sources showing that Murić has been signed to a team in the top tier Dutch league, along with rumors that other top teams (like Manchester United and Chelsea) had been courting him. Google News shows 20+ articles on him in the last few weeks. Most of them are about the recent transfer to Ajax, and most (but not all) are Croatian sources. There was coverage of him before the transfer took place, and more coverage after it was confirmed he was going to Ajax. In any case, I felt that the sources that were provided at the AFD generated enough doubt that the non-notability argument was valid in this case. On the other hand, I don't think the sources provided were necessarily strong enough to close the discussion with a Keep result. Thus, no consensus.
- Since there are obviously a lot of sources available, this AfD really comes down to whether or not the coverage is routine. WP:ROUTINE gives examples such as wedding announcements, obituaries, sports scores, and crime logs; coverage of sports matches, film premieres, and press conferences. I'm not convinced that the coverage of a teenage athlete being signed by a top team (and being valued at €6million+ by those teams) is quite on the same level as obituaries and wedding announcements. ‑Scottywong| gab _ 21:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure, allow renomination - Scottywong's rationale seems well-thought-out and appropriate under the circumstances. The only thing I take issue with is his interpretation of WP:ROUTINE. With regard to football (soccer) AFDs, coverage of signings (especially those relating to young players) has often been interpreted as "routine". Coverage is often based on PR from agents rather than actual interest in the subject and much of it constitutes one or two lines among dozens and dozens of such articles during the transfer windows. It's only when that coverage extends to actual profiles that we consider someone has taken a genuine editorial interest in the subject. Otherwise, the effort involved in reporting it is even less than that given to reporting match day sports scores. A €6 million signing is not "insignificant" but many youth players are signed years in advance of ever taking to the field and so consensus has evolved to draw the line somewhere. There probably isn't a strongly defined consensus in that regard anyway, so a "no consensus" result doesn't seem unfair to me. That said, there is generally no prejudice against the renomination of an article where a discussion has closed as "no consensus" and it doesn't seem the closing admin has indicated a specific objection in that regard. So that's where I'd go with it. St★lwart111 00:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel that this type of coverage is more than just a routine announcement of "Player X was transferred to Team Y at a cost of Z dollars. Player X scored 25 goals for Team W last year." However, since the AfD came to no consensus, I'd have no objection to a renomination at some point in the near future, especially if it specifically focused on an evaluation of the available sources with respect to WP:ROUTINE. ‑Scottywong| chatter _ 00:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure, but that's not really coverage of him - that's coverage of a legal dispute between the clubs that happens to relate to him. It doesn't tell us anything about him, really and I wouldn't consider it significant coverage of him. But anyway, I don't want to force you to defend your close by taking one side or the other - the whole point was that you worked with what you had, and in this case that was a not-particularly-clear consensus and your close reflected that. St★lwart111 01:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Not clear-cut, that one. Personally I would have preferred "delete" as a close, but "no consensus" was well within discretion. Since it was a "no consensus" an early renomination is permitted, and I'd suggest that.—S Marshall T/C 08:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - heads were about even, plausibly meets WP:N. No consensus is the right call. An in-depth analysis of the sources might be able to tilt the discussion, but that didn't occur (from either position). WilyD 09:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That the article appears to have been plagiarized out of Giantsnowman's sandbox seems like a greater affront than its retention following the deletion nomination (though I will grant that a "No consensus" outcome looks like it was within justifiable parameters). Given that it appears that article is going to remain, and that its creation is the only edit ever performed on Wikipedia was by the article's "creator", Nordlund95, an SPA with no user page and nearly vacant talk page, and that such a page should have been created as a result of a page move by Nordlund95 from Giantsnowman's sandbox to the corresponding full article name space (which clearly was not done, and was not done for what look to me like shady reasons), credit for the article's creation aught to at least go where it is due, however that can be accomplished. KDS4444Talk 16:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- We can, and should, merge the relevant part of the history of GS's sandbox into the history of this article. The SPA might as well be censured for failing to observe basic copyright policies. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Robert Murić's attribution should be repaired (WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Repairing insufficient attribution) by dummy edit or history merge according to GiantSnowman's preference. Flatscan (talk) 04:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no consensus was the right call, people on both sides didn't budge. They addressed each others concerns, but neither wanted to give. The original editors should be credited to avoid COPYVIO. XiuBouLin (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - the fundamental crux of this discussion is that we are dealing here with a player who has never played even a minute of first team football at any level, either the fully professional level demanded by or at any other level. Comments above regarding the transfer are correct, those sources deal with a legal dispute about the player between two clubs and do not threefore make the player himself notable. If the player ever plays, per WP:CRYSTAL then an article is warranted, but at the moment we are left in the strange situation where editors are claiming notability on the grounds that this individual is a footballer, without him actually having played at any notable level. Fenix down (talk) 09:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That may be true, but that's more an argument that should have been made at AFD (or should be made at the next AFD). St★lwart111 09:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- You may wish to refresh your knowledge of the deletion discussion as that was exactly the argument put forward by myself, Sir Sputnik and Michael. Oh well, if he plays in the next couple of months then he will be notable, if he doesn't then he will almost certainly be back at AfD. Fenix down (talk) 08:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, my parenthesis were unclear perhaps. I've already suggested it be nominated again so I was making the point that the argument should be made again. St★lwart111 23:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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