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Nominator's rationale: A treaty is by definition a legal agreement signed by (at least) two sovereign states. (Edit: more strictly speaking, a treaty can also be signed between a state actor and a non-state actor, like a terrorist organisation or rebel movement). "the medieval Islamic world" was neither a state actor nor a non-state actor, so this is WP:NONDEFINING for treaties. (Note: I previously CfD'd this as part of a package, but the discussion became confused and complicated, so I withdrew it. I'm taking it one at a time now). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, medieval treaties categories are subdivided by country and the medieval Islamic world is not a country. It also does not concern a topic that is in any way particular to or separate in the medieval Islamic world. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Al-Andalusi Strictly speaking, a treaty can also be signed between a state actor and a non-state actor like a terrorist organisation or rebel movement, yes. "medieval Islamic world" was neither a state actor nor a non-state actor.
Category:Medieval treaties and Category:Ancient treaties are just about treaties between state actors and/or non-state actors by period. Because treaties carry specific dates at which they were signed (and later ratified), categorisation by period is possible without being arbitrary.
Category:Treaties of ancient Greece is an interesting case (probably comparable to Category:Treaties of al-Andalus). I might add that its parent Category:Interstate relations in ancient Greece seems to be unique and has no equivalent either. Per WP:OTHERSTUFF, if you think such categories should exist, or neither, you are free to CfD that category / those categories as well. Depending on your rationale, I might support your nomination for deletion as well. Similarly, Category:Military history of ancient Greece and Category:Military history of al-Andalus might be co-nominated as well for being a military histories of regions which were rarely a unified state, and more often fragmented into functionally independent states, which often fought against each other. Nevertheless, I think nobody will dispute that Ancient Greece or Al-Andalus are legitimate historiographical concepts, and that their associated category trees have a certain categorisation legitimacy and usefulness up to a certain point. The question would be where that legitimacy/usefulness as a category tree ends. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as this CfM is concerned: yes. As far as Fayenatic's CfM of its parent Category:Foreign relations of the medieval Islamic world is concerned: no. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:1st-century rulers in Europe
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Support, redundant category layer (even while governors could still be added). Marcocapelle (talk) 05:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Marcomannic rulers
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As far as the Romans were concerned, yes. He deposed king Marboduus in order to take his place. He reigned for a brief time. Article Vibilius has him as a "king": According to Tacitus, Vibilius deposed the Marcomannic king Catualda, who had himself deposed Maroboduus in 18 AD. I guess we could also Rename to "Marcomannic kings" if we wanted to. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tacitus repeatedly identifies Maroboduus as a "king":
26: regemque Maroboduum/king Maroboduus
44: set Maroboduum regis nomen invisum apud popularis/But the title of king rendered Maroboduus hated among his countrymen
45: e regno etiam Marobodui/(even) from the kingdom of Maroboduus.
Tacitus does not explicitly identify Catualda as a "king", but it is clear that he temporarily took Maroboduus' place on the Marcomanni throne. Translators Church & Brodribb 1876 add the word 'king' and 'kings' in two places not found in the original Latin, however.
62: Catualda, profugus olim vi Marobodui ettunc dubiis rebus (lit. 'when in doubtful circumstances') eius ultionem ausus./Catualda [had] formerly been driven into exile by the might of Maroboduus, and who now,when the king's fortunes were declining, ventured on revenge. He (...) burst into the palace and into an adjacent fortress. This is Catualda displacing Maroboduus from his seat of power, driving him into exile in Italy.
63 (...) Maroboduus, now utterly deserted, had no resource but in the mercy of Caesar. (...) as a most famous king in former days [clarissimum quondam regem] (...) Maroboduus was kept at Ravenna.Catualda had a like downfall and no better refuge. Driven out soon afterwards (...) he was received and sent to Forum Julii, a colony of Narbonensian Gaul. The barbarians who followed the twokings...[barbari utrumque comirati...].
So while Tacitus never explicitly calls him a rex (as the translators do), he treats Catualda and Maroboduus the same, as men who came into power within the Marcomanni kingdom, then had a downfall and had to go in exile in the Roman Empire. Scholars:
Gowing (1990) p. 325-326 analysed how Tacitus' goal was to show the Roman client king system didn't work, that Maroboduus was simply another failed client king, and that Tacitus notes that Catualda soon suffered the same fate as his predecessor and was later settled together with his followers across the Danube.
Tejral (2018) similarly writes: ...antique written reports on retinues of the deposed barbarian rulers Maroboduus and soon after him Catualda, who were settled by the Romans on the barbarian shore of the Danube....
András Mócsy (2014), p. 14: Tiberius had Maroboduus overthrown by Drusus. The German king fled to the empire, where he was granted asylum and interned in Ravenna. Shortly afterwards the new king, Catualda, who had been installed by Drusus, was also overthrown, and he, too,, was given asylum in the empire. Gowing points out that Tacitus omitted to mention that Drusus (Drusus Julius Caesar, son of Tiberius) was the one behind the resettlement arrangement of emperor Tiberius' ally Maroboduus (which he does mention about Vannius, Claudius' ally), and Mócsy concludes that Catualda was Drusus' ally, that Drusus was behind Catualda's overthrow of Maroboduus (Tiberius' former ally), and Catualda thus became the new Marcomanni king as a client of Drusus (Seager 2005 drew the same conclusion). Gowing observed that in each of these three cases, a Roman general failed to assist the client king that was their ally, and after the expulsion of each client king, he sought refuge with this Roman general who was supposed to have protected him.
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Category:6th-century rulers of Brittany
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Rename per nom and concur with RevelationDirect on smallcat issue. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Dutch manuscripts
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Rename per nom. I don't think it is a good idea to orphan one of these articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:30, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Former Critics of Islam
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If not deleted, the page should be renamed to Category:Former critics of Islam. – FayenaticLondon 21:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:SMALLCAT, with no objection against re-creation if populated with at least 3 items, and a lowercase c per Fayenatic. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CommentFormer Muslim critics of Islam means: "people who used to be Muslim, but are no longer Muslim, and nowadays criticise Islam". It does not mean: "Muslims who used to criticise Islam in the past, but nowadays no longer criticise Islam." Misinterpretation is understandable in this case, although the category trees should be clear. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, van Klaveren is a "former Christian critic of Islam": when he was a Christian, he criticised Islam. But then he converted to Islam and (obviously) stopped criticising it. Although it is possible for any adherent of any religion to criticise (aspects of) their own religion, we usually don't categorise them as such. E.g. Category:Critics of Islamism is full of Muslims who criticise political/theocratic manifestations of Islam, but not necessary the religion as a whole, which they tend to consider a private matter. If van Klaveren publishes a book tomorrow criticising ISIS or the Ayatollah regime of Iran, we may well put him in Category:Critics of Islamism. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per WP:SMALLCAT for now. I am unsure if this would be defining if we had a larger group. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, in general "former critics" of anything is barely defining. Under normal circumstances people do not publicly announce they stop criticizing. In this particular case it is the conversion that is defining, not stopping criticism. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Lithuanian chronicles
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That last suggestion is a pretty good one, the PSRL collection transcends boundaries and those boundaries have move a lot since the chronicles were written. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Speed skating venues
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Merge for Now with no objection to recreation if any ever grow to 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Delete the United States category as it is populated with baseball/football stadiums that have hosted ice hockey events once or sparsely. Move the articles that were primarily ice hockey venues to Category:Outdoor ice hockey venues. –Aidan721 (talk) 14:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Flag literature
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Curling venues
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Merge for Now With no objection to recreating any that grow to 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Albanian-speaking countries and territories
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Support less subjective about what percentage need to speak it when, when it's the official status. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RevelationDirect now that you mention it, what should we do about List of Hungarian communities in Vojvodina? It seems to arbitrarily take 5% as "significant", which is full-on WP:OR. All these municipalities have Hungarian as an official language by default because they are situated in the Vojvodina. That seems a much more objective and defining element.
5% in that list does seem a little arbitrary, unless "significant minority" is an official term. I'm wondering if the issue is just with the title of that article though: while not everything there would appear to belong in "List of Hungarian communities in Vojvodina", List of communities in Vojvodina by Hungarian population (or something similar) would have more truth in advertising. - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:47, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think "significant minority" is completely WP:OR, and legally irrelevant anyway, because all municipalities in Vojvodina are officially bilingual. (Comparing to other European countries, the threshold percentages at which a minority language is entitled to local co-official status varies from 30% (Belgium) to 15% (Slovakia), but I've never seen as little as 5% before. But again, irrelevant in Vojvodina's case). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update siblings about Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil have recently been renamed to ...where Fooian is an official language for the same or similar reasons as in the rationale. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Polish chronicles
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Propose merging Category:Polish chronicles to Category:Latin chronicles about Poland
Nominator's rationale: Ok so I created Category:Latin chronicles about Poland as a separate category with the idea of making a distinction between "Latin chronicles about Poland" and "Polish-language chronicles about Poland", but now it turns out that each item in the category was actually in Latin haha. Well I guess the new category I created has a more precise name, and Category:Polish chronicles should be taken out of Category:West Slavic chronicles because there is nothing "Slavic" about texts written in Latin. Other than that, this should just be merged. I do realise, however, that the interwikis may no longer be valid, because e.g. pl:Kategoria:Polskie kroniki has a mix of Latin and Polish-language texts.Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale (amended): I concluded it is best to rename/rescope this by topic, and treat about Poland as the topic, per WP:C2C parent Category:History books about Poland. See reply to Marcocapelle below for explanation. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or reverse merge per nom. Presumably the page history of the older category should be kept.Marcocapelle (talk) 14:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle I've been thinking a bit more about it, and I've now established Category:Chronicles by topic, in which "about [country]" can be a topic. I've nominated Category:Lithuanian chronicles for renaming to Category:Chronicles about Lithuania, and Category:French chronicles for renaming to Category:Chronicles about France. We could do the same here. Instead of merging, we rename Category:Polish chronicles to Category:Chronicles about Poland, we manually move all items to its child Category:Latin chronicles about Poland, and we just look for non-Latin items to populate it with or wait for someone else to do it. This way we can keep the interwikis as well. Would you agree with changing the nomination that way? If you hadn't commented yet, I may have BOLDly done it already, but you already commented, and I'm worried about creating a SMALLCAT with 0 items and 1 child. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:42, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nomination amended per rationale given above. Meanwhile, I've also nominated Category:German chronicles to be renamed to Category:Chronicles about Germany. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support amended proposal, consistent with nomination above and meanwhile other nominations. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's rationale: Intersection not appearing at other places in the Olympic competitors tree. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Royal families of the Americas
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Comment Didn't the Spanish royal family technically span the two continents for a while?★Trekker (talk) 02:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That would not be a defining characteristic for them. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. But I dont see why categorization by continent is helpful at all in these cases.★Trekker (talk) 07:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth looking at the Category:European monarchs precedent if you'd like to know the rationale behind it. I agree that in the case of monarchs continents are kind of arbitrary, but the current thinking seems to be that the continent in which the monarch usually resided/resides counts. So Margrethe II of Denmark is a monarch in Europe, but not a monarch in North America, despite Greenland (probably also because Greenland is not sovereign). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Monarchs in the Americas
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Category:10th-century BC Kings of Syria
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Propose renaming Category:10th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:10th-century BC kings of Aram-Damascus
Propose renaming Category:9th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:9th-century BC kings of Aram-Damascus
Propose renaming Category:8th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:8th-century BC kings of Aram-Damascus
Nominator's rationale:rename per actual name of the territory Aram-Damascus. This was part of a broader rename discussion at WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
copy of speedy discussion
Category:10th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:10th-century BC kings of Syria – C2A: MOS:JOBTITLE. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:9th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:9th-century BC kings of Syria
Category:8th-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:8th-century BC kings of Syria
Category:2nd-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:2nd-century BC kings of Syria
Category:1st-century BC Kings of Syria to Category:1st-century BC kings of Syria
Category:20th-century Kings of Syria to Category:20th-century kings of Syria
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Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas
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Nominator's rationale:merge, there is no reason to create supercontinent categories here, we do not do this for Eurasia either. Earlier there was a rename discussion at WP:CFDS, but we can better have that discussion together with the Asian, European and African siblings, maybe later. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:35, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas to Category:Assassinated Pan-American politicians – WP:C2C Consistency with the other categories in the tree. Thinker78(talk) 04:49, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That would be fine too. But I just want it to be clear what the category is for, is it for people from or of those continents or is it for any politician assassinated in the continents?★Trekker (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, as the category only contains subcategories by nationality, "in" is obviously wrong. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Originally I intended it to be for events in the continents. But I later realized there was already categorization by nationalities and I thought it would be pointless to duplicate by geography if very few differences existed anyway. For example, I can only think of Leo Ryan as an American politician assassinated abroad in South America.
There was a discussion about it in the thread of the request "Category:Assassinated politicians in North America to Category:Politicians assassinated in North America" [1]. Thinker78(talk) 06:12, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are three categories in Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas and maybe there should be four, including Central Americans. Another difference with Eurasia are the names. North America, South America, Central America. Meaning different parts of the continent America (as it is known in Spanish and other languages except in the United States).
Therefore, the similitude is more with Asia – South Asia, Europe – Western Europe. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 05:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion shows that we better have a full CfD.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge per nom. This reminds me, we should probably also upmerge Category:Monarchs in the Americas to Category:Monarchs by continent, and Category:Royalty in the Americas to Category:Royalty by continent, but at the time of renaming (7 March/9 May) we didn't make a decision on that. I'm gonna CfM them now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Marcocapelle, you never replied to my earlier comment addressing precisely this view. I copy paste it herein, There are three categories in Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas and maybe there should be four, including Central Americans. Another difference with Eurasia are the names. North America, South America, Central America. Meaning different parts of the continent America (as it is known in Spanish and other languages except in the United States). Therefore, the similitude is more with Asia – South Asia, Europe – Western Europe.
Also, do people in Eurasia regularly talk about socioeconomic issues in Eurasia as it is common in reliable sources about the Americas? The New York Times[1], CNN[2], The Guardian[3] have sections of news in the Americas but not Eurasia. Apparently Americas in their view include all the countries from Canada to Argentina, except the US. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 01:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On Wikipedia we categorize everything by country and by the six continents as they are commonly known in the English speaking world. It is redundant to also categorize by a concept like the sum of two continents minus one country, even if that concept is occasionally used as such. We can of course have a category about that concept, Category:Americas, but we do not need to intersect any random topic with it, like assassinated politicians. We should have intersections of Americas with topics that the Americas share but the rest of the world doesn't (although no particular topic comes to my mind.) The same applies to Eurasia, we can have Category:Eurasia, plus intersections with topics that Europe and Asia share in contrast to other continents. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You mean in the English speaking world (including India, Australia, the UK, Ireland) or only the USA? Plus you forgot to share reliable sources backing your claim. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, regarding Eurasia, you don't hear about North Eurasia, South Eurasia, Central Eurasia commonly like in the case of the Americas (North America, South America, meaning the north and south of America). Therefore I don't think it is a proper analogy. In Latin America, America is the continent spanning from Alaska to Argentina. For some reason the USA appropriated the term for itself. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 00:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you think the continent categories should contain Americas instead of North America and South America you may try an RFC. Having North and South America separately is an established convention in Wikipedia, but I would not mind if that convention changes. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I placed not only North America and South America in the Category:Assassinated politicians in the Americas but also Central America and the Caribbean. I noticed you moved them back to North America. That is another discussion to have. Regarding RFC, What not to use the RfC process for. This page is the rfc for categories. Btw, can you give me some reference about North America and South America division being the convention? I am amenable to follow what English reliable sources take for the most standard count of continents in the world. Regards, Thinker78(talk) 20:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge per WP:OCLOCATION. I can't see the navigational benefit of a 2 category grouping by hemisphere. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:38, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Eureka (American TV series)
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Nominator's rationale:rename using a far clearer disambiguation, in order to distinguish it from Eureka! (2022 TV series). This was opposed at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:18, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose speedy Main article was only recently moved and without discussion, and thus C2D doesn't apply. ArmbrustTheHomunculus 07:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you user:Armbrust for your constant vigilance. I suggest that this should go ahead under C2B instead, as we should follow the article's disambiguation from its current ambiguity, cf. other uses at Eureka#Film_and_television. – FayenaticLondon 22:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving, "American TV series" is obviously too ambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename. I had meant to process this from the Speedy page under C2B. – FayenaticLondon 10:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Bandy venues
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Do not need to merge to Sports venues in country (except the one noted case) as they are already in that tree. –Aidan721 (talk) 00:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge for now With no objection to recreating if any ever reach 5+ articles. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.