The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Propose renaming Category:Luke Jerram installation artworks to Category:Installation artworks by Luke Jerram
Nominator's rationale: I wasn't aware of the correct naming scheme at the time I created this. Apologies (what a way to make my first category!). I believe this falls under WP:C2C and WP:C2E.Schminnte (talk • contribs) 23:11, 11 February 2023 (UTC) (edited 23:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC))[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Grand Theft Auto III
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: There’s only one article and three redirects in the category (which all target the only article in the category). ArmbrustTheHomunculus 22:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Delete, since I don't see much of a chance for expansion. Dimadick (talk) 15:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Sportspeople by region
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Danish Education Ministers
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per WP:C2C as Marcocapelle states. Oculi (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Adult animated television series by nationality
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:rename, television series are normally diffused by country, e.g. Category:Animated television series by country. It is not a case of WP:C2C because the other parent is "by nationality", though that parent is nominated for deletion below. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom. As detailed below, I see no other option but deletion for the improperly named parent. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Adult entertainment by nationality
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. There aren't any merge targets that I think are applicable. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Unclear what else would go in here, and one of the category members is improperly named. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:45, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Propose deletingCategory:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale:delete, the category is empty apart from the userbox. If kept, rename to Category:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor University or Category:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor University Press per article Baylor University. This was opposed for speedy renaming. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:11, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
copy of speedy discussion
Category:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor to Category:Wikipedians who have access to Baylor University – C2D. Gonnym (talk) 17:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose These users have access to "Baylor University Press", but as that doesn't has an article this can't be speedily renamed. ArmbrustTheHomunculus 18:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename using "Baylor University Press". Although this currently only contains an unused userbox, it is part of a Wikipedia Library access set, so could be useful. – FayenaticLondon 14:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Baylor University Press or deletion because empty. Gonnym (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete empty Kbdank71 00:36, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Delete or rename? Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as empty, with no objection to a recreation under the renamed title if an actual user joins. * Pppery *it has begun... 15:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Wikipedians who have access to IMF
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Propose deletingCategory:Wikipedians who have access to IMF (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale:delete, empty category apart from the userbox. If kept, rename to Category:Wikipedians who have access to the IMF eLibrary per stale discussion at speedy. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
copy of speedy discussion
Category:Wikipedians who have access to IMF to Category:Wikipedians who have access to International Monetary Fund – C2D: or "International Monetary Fund elibrary" which is what specifically is meant here. Gonnym (talk) 07:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It would be better to refer to the library, but its name is the "IMF eLibrary" and this would suffice.[2] Shall we add this to the list for a full CFD? – FayenaticLondon 21:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SupportRename using "IMF eLibary". – FayenaticLondon 13:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
[reply]
I support renaming rather than deletion, because it is part of a structure about access under Wikipedia Library, and because once populated it could be useful e.g. for other editors seeking confirmation of sourcing via someone with access to this library. – FayenaticLondon 17:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Empty Kbdank71 00:33, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:26, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as empty, with no objection to a recreation under the renamed title if an actual user joins. * Pppery *it has begun... 15:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
DeleteWikipedia:IMF says this partnership is currently not available, and thus this category isn't necessary. ArmbrustTheHomunculus 19:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Delete, then. – FayenaticLondon 14:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:North American Soccer League (1968–1984) drafts
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
This is no longer applicable. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 11:22, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
'Draft picks' should be a sub-category of this category. GiantSnowman 19:17, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such "precedent". That has not been discussed here, and most should be deleted. William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is badly failing WP:COPSEP; other such drafts categories contain lists of yearly drafts and results, not individual draftees. William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- I cannot believe that the players are notable for being part of a draft, rather than for being players. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Pennyworth (TV series) characters
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: All the characters with articles are mainly Gotham series, not defined by appearing on Pennyworth. ★Trekker (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Propose deleting Category:Pennyworth (TV series) character redirects to lists
Oppose. I haven't looked at what entries are in the category, but regardless a merge between two completely different TV series with completely unrelated storylines is bizzare. If the content does not fit the category, then delete. Gonnym (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: for both nominated categories, Merge or Delete will now have exactly the same outcome, as all three member pages/redirects are already in the target categories. @Gonnym: also, they all have names ending with the disambiguator "(Gotham)". – FayenaticLondon 17:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure delete is fine. I just noted that the shows are not the same. It seems that the editor that caused this mess was also blocked so that makes sense. Gonnym (talk) 22:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Manuscripts written in undeciphered writing systems
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:WP:CATNAMEDo not write the category structure in names. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register. Match parent "History of ...." Eliminate WP:SMALLCAT layer of one 1 or 2 subcategories.
speedy discussion
Category:NZHPT register in the West Coast, New Zealand to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the West Coast, New Zealand – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that we can leave off the , New Zealand bit where applicable; the country is already mentioned in the organisation's title. Schwede66 06:27, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lengthy but follows the tree which is History of the West Coast, New Zealand, etc. so should be kept. Gonnym (talk) 10:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the West Coast, New Zealand (with or without the terminal New Zealand). Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Wellington Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Wellington Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Wellington Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in Waikato to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in Waikato – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in Waikato. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Tasman Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Tasman Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Tasman Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in Southland, New Zealand to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in Southland, New Zealand – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in Southland, New Zealand. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in Otago to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in Otago – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in Otago. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Northland Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Northland Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Northland Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Nelson Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Nelson Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Nelson Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Marlborough Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Marlborough Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Marlborough Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in Manawatū-Whanganui to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in Manawatū-Whanganui – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in Manawatū-Whanganui. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Auckland Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Auckland Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Auckland Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Hawke's Bay Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Hawke's Bay Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Hawke's Bay Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Gisborne District to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Gisborne District – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Gisborne District. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in Canterbury, New Zealand to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in Canterbury, New Zealand – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in Canterbury, New Zealand. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NZHPT register in the Bay of Plenty Region to Category:Heritage New Zealand register in the Bay of Plenty Region – C2D. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:36, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as proposed. Heritage New Zealand no longer uses the term register, but instead uses list, and the category is not for the list but for items on the list or listings, so the category name should become Category:Heritage New Zealand listings in the Bay of Plenty Region. Paora (talk) 11:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as this scheme addresses all of the various issues that the rename process identified in this category tree. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 00:52, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I updated the "from" category names after the 25 Jan renaming went through. The CFD templates were removed and will have to be reinstated. – FayenaticLondon 22:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Qwerfjkl: there was only 1 category up for renaming on 25 Jan. These rest had not been tagged, and had been segregated, They should not have been copied to CFDW (and hand changed), and the CfD tags for a completely different week removed. Especially with wrong capitalization! @Fayenatic london: thank you for informing us of that colossal screwup. I'd spent over 4 hours hand tagging them, and I'll not be spending any more hours retagging them. If untagged categories can be renamed once to improper capitalization, they can be again to proper names. Speedily. William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@William Allen Simpson, ah, sorry, I didn't realise that. I'll retag them soon. Also, if you need to do a mass nom, I can tag them for you. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:59, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, just needed an Undo on each page. While I was passing through I noticed that the sort keys are inconsistent, but sorry, I left those for somebody else to harmonise.– FayenaticLondon 08:36, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'd actually posted the following note, that I'd expected the closer to read:
Procedural issue: Only one tagged. The others will need to be re-nominated and tagged after conclusion here. Also, related speedy will need to be re-nominated and tagged.
Yeah, I usually check the sort keys afterwards on bulk nominations. Also, after up/down merges, ensure its categories got merged, too. Sometimes they aren't. William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all. This is a misinterpretation of WP:CATNAME. Without the "Heritage New Zealand" prefix, the category names become meaningless. These categories were all just moved to the current locations, and do not need moving again a day later. Paora (talk) 08:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment: WP:CATNAME is clear: Choose category names that can stand alone, independent of the way a category is connected to other categories. Removing the "Heritage New Zealand" thwarts that objective. Paora (talk) 09:20, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. "Category 1 historic places in Taranaki" stands alone. Nobody gives a flying fig that this is a "NZHPT" or "HNZ" category. We're never going to allow parallel local categories of historic places for the same thing. William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:47, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You say "Nobody gives a flying fig", but most of the commenters here have objected to the removal of "Heritage New Zealand" from the category names, so clearly there are people who do "give a flying fig". And who is the "we" you speak of? If there were local categories of historic places proposed that were defining characteristics of those places, then that would be entirely appropriate and within the guidelines, and I personally would have no problem in allowing them. Since you mention Taranaki, it's worth noting that of the 1,140 historic heritage buildings, structures or items identified in Taranaki by district councils as of 2014, only 160 were listed by Heritage New Zealand,[3] so there could be potential scope for local categories! Paora (talk) 10:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removing "Heritage New Zealand" from the name, per Paora. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:58, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind one way or the other, but I don't think the opposers have made a very strong case for the long names being necessary. Sure, "Category 1" couldn't stand alone, but "Category 1 historic places in X" could, cf. the UK cats e.g. within Category:Grade I listed buildings in England by county. Or is there another NZ register of historic places apart from Heritage New Zealand?
Also, even if the nominated renamings are opposed, the NZHPT categories need to be either merged or renamed. – FayenaticLondon 10:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are other lists of historic places in New Zealand. Each territorial authority (local council) in New Zealand maintains its own list(s) of historic places, with one or more categories, as part of their district plans, with different criteria (that vary from council to council) from those used by Heritage New Zealand. Thus, the local lists may be quite different from the national list compiled by Heritage New Zealand. Paora (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a lifelong interest in historic preservation, and live in one of the original homes in the oldest historic district of Ann Arbor. (Down the street from "Ann [Allen]'s Arbor" on Allen Creek. I'm an Allen, on my mother's side.) My great-aunty on my father's side lived in a "category B-listed" art deco house in Scotland. We have local historic districts, but the listing standards are state and national by law.
"Category 1 historic places in X" is how we've done the rest of the world. We don't graft "National Heritage List of <Foo>" onto each of them.
This eliminates the "New Zealand [...] in <region>, New Zealand" naming issue. William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting but not relevant here, as this discussion is about New Zealand, not Michigan or Scotland.
How we've done these New Zealand categories for the last 10 years, since the first of these categories were created, is to begin the category name with the listing authority, until now NZHPT, i.e. the New Zealand Historic Places Trust, to distinguish clearly from local authority heritage listings. This format has been stable and has not previously attracted comment. The New Zealand Historic Places Trust has been renamed Heritage New Zealand, hence the need to rename the category.
The point to take away is that I'm familiar with categorization of historic places in multiple jurisdictions. New Zealand isn't really that different. While nobody cared enough to notice that NZHPT junk on the old categories, that's not a good reason to resist standard category naming practices. William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:47, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 15:09, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Cultural depictions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:keep. Note 1: There is support from both sides for listing and purging less significant instances. That can go ahead anyway without further discussion, but if there's a mass purge which might be contentious then I suggest linking to diffs or noting the removed items on the category (or main article) talk page. Lists in some form probably exist in all these cases already, either near the end of the main biography or as a separate page. Note 2: the category for James Joyce has been separately nominated and deleted with partial merging per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 3#Category:Cultural depictions of James Joyce. – FayenaticLondon 22:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: manually merge as follow-up on this earlier discussion in which the top "depictions of people" category was merged to Category:Works based on real people. In contrast to the works categories, the depictions categories contain an awful lot of non-defining mentions, so this really has to be sorted out manually. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is entirely correct. This nominations only contains Cultural depictions categories insofar there is also a Works category. Many Cultural depictions categories do not have a Works category in parallel and have not been included here. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support as a step forward. Once this is accomplished, I think we should have a discussion concerning "X works", "Works about X", "Works by X", "Works based on X", etc. (As well as the usage of the word "media" vs. "medium".) And then write up some guidelines on this. It seems every few months some enthusiastic editor comes along to re-create the wheel and wastes a LOT of everyone's time. - jc37 06:39, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Preferred: Listify - per the discussion. This is apparently a mess, and merging would actually make more work in the long run, trying to sift through the categories for whether the character merely "appeared" or was actually part of the story in some way. - jc37 14:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no mess, the term 'Cultural depictions of...' has been a stable and functional aspect of categories for many years. And please read Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigational templates which specifically and repeatedly instructs that categories and lists are not mutually-exclusive and that neither should be used to harm the other. Why do people who comment in CfD keep on making the same mistakes when those WP instructions exist? Randy Kryn (talk) 14:17, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
lol. Thank you. You made me smille : )
All I'll say is: Why indeed? : ) - jc37 14:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. But what an odd and useless retort. Please elaborate at what made you both lol (I only write that when I actually lol) and smile, or are you counting the smile as a lol? Randy Kryn (talk) 14:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't going to comment, but ok - Several reasons. Here're just two:
One may be that, I've been active in CfD off-n-on for about 16 years, and, well, I think it's fair to say that I'm more than pretty well versed in most policy regarding categories. And as such I'm a fairly strong proponent of WP:CLS (now known as WP:CLN).
And for another, only a few minutes prior to your comment, I literally had just noted CLN in a comment further down this thread. (Though, thank you, your comment inspired me to clarify it.)
So when you ask: "Why do people who comment in CfD keep on making the same mistakes when those WP instructions exist?" - I can but respond: "Why indeed?" - jc37 16:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Cultural depictions can be more than just a single work or groups of works, a character is not a work but a depiction for example, and a non-fiction work like a scholarly article isn't really a "cultural depiction".★Trekker (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose per StarTrekker, i.e. a character depicting Thomas Jefferson as one character of many in a television series is not a "Work about Thomas Jefferson", it is a cultural depiction. Jc37's response above is concerning, to sub-divide and sub-divide: "Cultural depictions of..." is understandable, functional, has been fine, and nothing is broken. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Depicting Thomas Jefferson as one character of many in a television series does not make it a defining characteristic of the television series. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not at all what I meant. If there was a specific version of a fictionalized figure that has an article that is a depiction but not a work (such as Prince Hal).★Trekker (talk) 17:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, StarTrekker, so let's find out exactly what you meant, so we can better understand each other.
Please provide one or more examples of a depiction that you feel is not a creative work. - jc37 05:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like my explanation is pretty clear, but ok, Joe Biden (The Onion) is a character not a work.★Trekker (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Any character, even if it is based upon a real person, is a creative work. Any other examples? - jc37 10:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. Characters are not works, characters are characters.★Trekker (talk) 12:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you did not click on the links I provided. Regardless, thank you for clarifying. So the issue here is that you are unaware that character is an element of a creative work, and thus it too is a creative work. - jc37 14:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If someone is depicted in a cultural film, comic, etc. they are the subject of a cultural depiction. Ipso facto. There is nothing broken here. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question. The Asterix series of comics figures Julius Caesar as the main antagonist. At first glance I would say it is not a work about Julius Caesar, but it still is a notable depiction, not one character of many (as a hint, 4620 hits on Scholar). I agree that non-notable cultural depictions (translated: random appearances) should be purged, but may not there be room for notable ones, as in the example above? Where would you place this example work in the proposed structure? Place Clichy (talk) 08:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
^ This is important too, "cultural depictions" is a far better descriptor in many cases.★Trekker (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still a creative work about Caesar. Even a parody is a work. Of course, here is where Jc37 chimes in that these should be "based upon" instead of "about". William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, its not about Caesar or based on Caesar, its about Asterix, Caesar is a major character sometimes, but most stories are entirely fictional and not "based on" Caesar or other historical events.★Trekker (talk) 12:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why exactly would we be categorizing every time Julius Ceasar appeared in fiction? At best this is something that should be a list, so that the appearance in question can be explained - just as you did just now. There are limitations to the category system, and this is one of them. See Point #2 at WP:CLN#Disadvantages of a category, for more information. Incidentally, this whole "culteral depictions" tree of categories, are subcats of Category:Works based on real people. - jc37 14:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But the work here is the Asterix comics, and that is clearly not about Caesar. CharacterJulius Caesar (Asterix) redirects to List of Asterix characters § Julius Caesar and should most probably not be made into a full article. Categorizing the actual work (Asterix), rather than the character, as a cultural depiction of Julius Caesar (in comics) feels like the right move. I agree that a purge is probably needed, e.g. the 3 boats named Giulio Cesare (1, 2, 3) have nothing to do in Category:Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar. I also agree that minor character appearances would probably be better served by list articles. However, the mere notion that notable cultural depictions simply do not exist leaves me sceptical, which makes me lend towards keep/purge, unless I read clearer explanations on how these notable depictions would fit in the new structure. Place Clichy (talk) 10:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, just because the entire work may be considered to be about a topic, it does not mean that the elements which make up that work are any less creative works themselves. I have linked to them already, but please see: creative work, character, literary element, and pretty much any elementary school literature class. - jc37 16:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course Asterix's Julius Caesar character is a creative work and is about Julius Caesar. However, that character is not eligible for a Wikipedia article: the Asterix series of comics is, so that's the only creative work we talk about here. And that works depicts Ceasar, but is not about Caesar. More generally, in any fictional or novelized universe, specific books or films or video games etc. are often worth Wikipedia articles, but individual characters rarely are. However, the cultural depictions in them are often (at least sometimes) noteworthy, as in the list of examples given below in my answer to Marcocapelle. So it's a moot point to discuss the categorization of non-existing articles about 'literary elements' in works about Foo categories. Place Clichy (talk) 22:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cases where a cultural depiction is defining for the article while it is not a work about the subject are extremely rare. I can't imagine we would keep up an entire category tree, full of non-defining mentions, for that. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would not say rare. There are plenty of cases where a secondary character achieves its own notability (John Falstaff comes to mind), and that also happens to real-based characters. Richard Burton's depiction of Mark Anthony in Mankiewicz's Cleopatra, Katharine Hepburn's Oscar-winning interpretation of Eleanor of Aquitaine in The Lion in Winter (the 'Lion' referring to Henry II), Anthony Hopkins as Pdt-to-be John Quincy Adams in Amistad are examples. In fact, Academy Award nomination lists for Best Supporting Actress and Best Supporting Actor have plenty of roles based on historic characters(Best Actress/Actor being more frequently for title roles). And that's only for Hollywood: notable cultural depictions in secondary characters also abounds in novel (Richard Lionheart is probably more well-known for the character in Ivanhoe and Robin Hood that his actual own deeds, as can be said of the real D'Artagnan vs. that of The Three Musketeers), play or opera (think of Philip II in Verdi's Don Carlos, or Marshall Kutuzov in Prokofiev's War and Peace). Also, there is the question whether even highly fictionalized title roles, such as the many fantasized depictions of Cleopatra, would really qualify as works about a historical figure. So I am leaning towards keep/purge unless I read clearer explanations on how these notable depictions would fit in the new structure. (I took the liberty to fix the indentation to place this line as an answer to my previous comment. Correct me if I was wrong.) Place Clichy (talk) 10:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but purge/listify when possible. This discussion shows that there is a space for cultural depictions of some characters in works that are not directly about them (e.g. Julius Caesar in Asterix, Richard Lionheart in Robin Hood or Ivanhoe or D'Artagnan in The Three Musketeers). HOWEVER, the Cultural depictions category tree has grown out of proportion, including many references such as a mere shared name (such as boats named Julius Caesar) or appearance of a minor character, for which disambiguation pages and lists (or article sections) of cultural references would be more appropriate than categories. So there's probably a long and tedious work ahead to purge these categories and listify what can be, but in any case the huge and valuable amount of information that's been put into them should be kept. Anyway, the notable depictions alone justify keeping the categories. Place Clichy (talk) 22:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the reasons mentioned by several other editors: not all significant depictions of a person/thing occur in works about that topic; Asterix was the first thing that came to mind for me—albeit for Cleopatra, rather than Caesar—but of course many other examples come to mind, not to mention that the wording seems clumsy when it comes to say, paintings or especially sculptures. Michelangelo's David is a statue of David, not about David—although it may "say" things about David. And I would say that if a warship is named after someone, that has enough significance to be mentioned somewhere, although some sailboat being named after the same person would usually not; but these would certainly not be "works about" the person, or to be honest even "cultural depictions". I mention this because, besides "boats" having been mentioned above without distinction, the word purge which occurs several times in this discussion is usually invoked to justify deleting large sections of various articles mentioning the cultural influence of a subject—rather than merely editing such lists down to say, notable depictions rather than trivial mentions. I suggest that thoughtful pruning and purging are two very different processes, and that if something along these lines is done, it should be the former, and not the latter. P Aculeius (talk) 13:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I'm completely fine with Listify/Delete, for the reasons you mention, per point #2 at WP:CLN#Disadvantages of a category. - jc37 17:52, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And maybe that's the solution. Close this as kept/opposed and open a new discussion on listification/deletion... - jc37 17:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Deletion? Seriously? Why not just close Wikipedia down and call it a day. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think most of the participants favour deleting all of this material. At most, figuring out the best place or format for it, and pruning it to remove obviously non-notable entries. P Aculeius (talk) 12:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what I said. I didn't suggest "deleting all of this material." Please try reading what I said, again. - jc37 19:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jc37, by Listify/Delete do you mean "listify or delete", or "listify i.e. delete "? — Qwerfjkltalk 21:03, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies. It's typically intended to mean Listify, then Delete. When meaning the reverse, I usually say "Delete, listify if wanted." Thank you for asking for the clarification, I'll try to be clearer in the future : ) - jc37 03:49, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose I agree with Trekker. Cultural depictions is a far wider category than single works, and typically more useful in actually locating articles. Dimadick (talk) 10:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Museums in Jelgava
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Category:Culture in Latvia by location
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Per longstanding convention we don't categorized people by the languages they don't speak. * Pppery *it has begun... 02:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, this does not contribute to editors' collaboration at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Climbing equipment companies
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: These are effectively the same, most mountaineering equipment companies (and manufacturers) also make climbing equipment and visa versa. The new target category should also, therefore, be renamed as "Climbing and mountaineering equipment companies". Aszx5000 (talk) 00:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given we have two large "head" categories of "mountaineering" and "climbing", it is better not to choose one over the other (and for some people, climbing is rock climbing and not mountaineering). Also, would not disperse, as most of these companies have consolidated over time and do such a wide range of mountaineering, climbing, hill walking, camping, etc so dispersal would not be helpful. For example, here is one of the biggest climbing and mountaineering magazines, Outside, calling Mammut Sports Group a "mountaineering and climbing company". We have them in Category:Climbing equipment companies and in Category:Mountaineering equipment manufacturers. We should merge and rename "Climbing and mountaineering equipment companies", like the magazine. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Climbing magazines
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: These are effectively the same, most mountaineering magazines (and journals) cover climbing and visa versa. The new target category should also, therefore, be renamed as "Climbing and mountaineering magazines and journals". Aszx5000 (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reverse merge, the magazines in Category:Mountaineering magazines are mostly very clearly about climbing. There is no need for a catch-all "mountaineering" term in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't do this as some historically only focused on mountaineering, and as we have the major head category of Mountaineering, so readers will search for them from that. Also, some of these are not "magazines" but "journals", with large advisory boards, issues and volumes, etc. Given there is not a large amount, merging them all into "Climbing and mountaineering magazines and journals" would make it easier for readers to find them without missing any due to what are now semantic definitions. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We can still keep a redirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reverse merge per Marcocapelle. Alpine Journalis the oldest mountaineering journal in the world. Yet it also uses the word "magazine" for itself, so there's no need to mention journals until we have a more robust evidence of academic journals. William Allen Simpson (talk) 10:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.