- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: relist entire tree for deletion. Consensus seems to be that this entire categorization scheme is probably not necessary and should be deleted. Procedurally, this should be a relist of the entire tree. bibliomaniac15 03:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Nominator's rationale: I am looking to split the child categories of this entire category tree into "built by" and "owned by" categories. That is, Category:Cafaro Company -> Category:Shopping malls built by Cafaro Company and Category:Shopping malls owned by Cafaro Company; Category:Simon Property Group -> Category:Shopping malls built by Simon Property Group and Category:Shopping malls owned by Simon Property Group, etc.
Given that most of the companies in Shopping malls by management company have both built and developed malls, and may sell holdings to other companies over time, I think that all of the eponymous categories should be split accordingly into "developed by" and "owned by". (For instance, Briarwood Mall is owned by Simon, but was built by Taubman Centers.) The developer behind a building such as a shopping mall is a defining trait as much as the current owner, so I feel it is appropriate to categorize both where applicable. In most cases, the original developer is already listed in ((infobox shopping mall)), so it should be easy to determine cases where "built by" and "owned by" are different.
This will also allow categorization for defunct developers such as Homart Development Company, The Hahn Company, and Mills Corporation.
(Note: As far as I can tell, Hull Property Group, JLL, Kohan Retail Investment Group, and Namdar Realty Group have never built malls, only acquired them, but their categories should still be moved to the "owned by" nomenclature if this is approved. Likewise, Brookfield never built any malls under the Brookfield name, but owns many built by the predecessor companies General Growth Properties/GGP, Rouse, and Homart.)
If the split is to include past developers, then the following should be considered too:
Category:Simon Property Group -> Simon Property Group; Edward J. DeBartolo Corporation; Glimcher Realty Trust; Mills Corporation
Category:Brookfield Properties Retail Group -> General Growth Properties; The Rouse Company; Homart Development Company
Category:CBL Properties --> CBL Properties; Arlen Realty and Development Corporation Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:10, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I would support renaming Category:Cafaro Company to Category:Shopping malls owned by Cafaro Company but that is not what this nomination is exactly about. Not sure whether we should categorize by builder, among others because it may lead to a lot of overlap. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:30, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The overlap would be less than you'd think. Many of the major developers suchas Homart, Hahn, Mills, and DeBartolo don't exist anymore, and many others have split up or merged. For instance, Castleton Square was built by DeBartolo and Homart, but is now owned by Simon. Westland Mall (Hialeah) was also built by DeBartolo, but is owned by a local company. Findlay Village Mall; also built by DeBartolo but now owned by Kohan. And so on. Some of the malls built by Cafaro, such as Beaver Valley Mall and Tallahassee Mall, were sold to other developers ages ago. Some malls like Rolling Acres Mall have a notable developer but are no longer existing. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Ping @Caldorwards4: @Sammi Brie: and other people who've handled retail articles. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 14:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 21:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- This sounds potentially useful, but I have some questions.
- Choice of noun: malls, centres or centers?
- Choice of verb: would "managed" be useful instead of, or as well as, "owned"? Some companies manage centres owned by others e.g. a local authority. The infobox lists all three roles.
- Would centres that have changed owners be categorised by both the current and former owner?
- For centres built and owned by e.g. Westfield and later managed by another company, is it necessary to categorise as owned by Westfield, or should that taken as read given that they would be in Category:Shopping centres built by Westfield?
- Would it be useful to split e.g. Category:Shopping centres owned by Westfield to Category:Shopping centres formerly owned by Westfield? (Cf. the existing Category:Former Westfield centres in Australia.) For defunct companies, presumably only the latter would be required.
- Where companies have merged, would we categorise only by the current/latest name? This is the usual practice in other category hierarchies for companies. Should this apply for both "built" and "owned"?
- Where companies have split, would we categorise only by the current/latest name? Should this apply for both "built" and "owned"?
- Hope this is helpful food for thought. I am not seeking to get the discussion bogged down, just anticipating questions worth clarifying. But my questions may indicate that the proposal could end up with unhelpful granularity (fractured categories) or proliferation of categories. – Fayenatic London 05:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Fayenatic london has a fair point that categorizing by ownership leads to issues with transfer of ownership. Starting to wonder if we should categorize shopping malls by company at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- If the mall changes ownership, then it can be recategorized. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:51, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 19:10, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete the whole thing Malls change management company a lot. I do not think a general schema by who built them, who operates them now, or arguably grouping every mall that was ever managed by x company under it, is justified.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, I was already in doubt and JPL's argument is convincing. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:15, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Johnpacklambert and Marcocapelle: What does "the whole thing" mean? Does this option call for relisting along with all 21 sub-cats from Ayala Malls to Westfield Group for purging/deletion? – Fayenatic London 20:37, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per John Pack Lambert. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:TNT categorising any property "...by management company". There is a huge difference between "by company", and "by management company". Each of the Category:Buildings and structures by company may also have one or more management companies managing the site. A management company could be anything from a service provider (janitorial, landscaping, etc), to a rent collector, to essentially being a landlord, and more. The term is just too broad. See also Property management. If someone would like to list malls by who they were built by, please check out Lists of shopping malls. - jc37 10:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.