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June 1

Category:Filmed accidental deaths

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 20:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This is rarely, if ever, a WP:DEFCAT. Many, in fact most modern incidents happen to be somehow filmed (before, during, or after the incident). No evidence how this in any way meets the requirements of policy; in fact seems to be actively contributing to WP:OVERCAT issues. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Vocal jazz musicians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: limited manual merge, i.e. just remove articles that are already in a by nationality category (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 03:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I'm really not too clear on what the intended distinction is between a "vocal jazz musician" and a "jazz singer" in this context -- in theory, I suppose there's a distinction between being a jazz singer and being a non-singing instrumentalist who performs in a jazz singer's band, but that's not how the category is actually being used: everybody here is a singer, and it's categorized as a subcategory of Category:Singers. But since vocal jazz is defined by the presence of singing, and there's no discernible phenomenon of jazz which features vocals yet somehow isn't "vocal jazz" despite the presence of vocals, there's no real need for two separate categories here.
Note that most people here are already categorized as "[Nationality] jazz singers", and so should simply be removed from the category rather than being transferred to the target, but I'm proposing merger rather than deletion just in case there are any stragglers who aren't already in any subcategories. Bearcat (talk) 17:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Aftermath of the Russo-Ukrainian War

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 29#Category:Aftermath of the Russo-Ukrainian War

Category:Medieval Tunisian people

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 29#Category:Medieval Tunisian people

Category:Television pilots

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. There was no consensus to delete, so the proposed rename is carried. Articles about failed pilots will need to be moved to other categories such as Category:Television pilots not picked up as a series‎. – Fayenatic London 21:31, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note on follow-up: I have now removed/recategorised those that were not picked up as a series, and expanded the stated purpose of Category:Television pilots within series to include non-premiere pilots e.g. the Star Trek ones mentioned below. – Fayenatic London 21:23, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: All of the television episodes in these categories are the first episodes of a television series (series premiere) but many do not fit the definition of a television pilot (a test episode to sell a TV series), specifically if the pilot wasn't the first episode or if the television series was commissioned without a pilot. --Shivertimbers433 (talk) 08:35, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JBchrch talk 18:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For me the question is, is a category for the first episode of television series worth keeping? I'm conflicted here as I can see valid points to have a category for the first episode of a series (and for the same reasons, one for the last episode) as those types of episode do tend to get a lot of research and academic discord around them. However, is our category system used by those people? That I don't know. Gonnym (talk) 13:45, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 13:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:War drama films

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. ✗plicit 01:10, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Upmerge per the rationale agreed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 July 14#Category:American Western (genre) drama films. There are no criteria for inclusion other than arbitrary and subjective application. Usage of the categories is completely ambiguous because, while some of the articles mention the word "drama", the vast majority do not. The point is that, apart from documentaries and some propaganda releases, all war films are dramas. We can accept such cross-genres as the comedy war film or the romantic war film or the science fiction war film as distinct offshoots of the main war film genre because comedy, romance and science fiction are genres in their own right, but drama is not. These categories are superfluous and present an unnecessarily difficult maintenance task. Deletion is not an option and upmerges are needed. A good point made at the Western drama CfD is that not every interaction and permutation of genre needs a category. NGS Shakin' All Over 14:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I originally created this category with the mind of Allmovie's definition of the genre "A type of drama set against the backdrop of war, focusing on how the larger conflict affects and/or threatens human existence in the story. Less action-packed than traditional combat films and containing touches of melodrama, this type of film usually takes place in one of two settings. Dramas set close to the front -- Paths of Glory, Come and See, and All Quiet on the Western Front -- focus attention on the way soldiers or civilizations cope with the threat of death and destruction. Films set back at home either during or after the conflict -- Hope and Glory, Mrs. Miniver and The Best Years of Our Lives -- generally study how society manages daily realities during times of war" I don't know how consistent this is across any genre theory, but generally speaking, it probably is not. I have no real push to keep it unless others can keep it together with more sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:17, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Andrzejbanas. Actually, it isn't your original that's the problem. As with so many others, including the Westerns categories which were deleted last year, the issue is the indiscriminate creation of sub-categories by User:Sc2353. Most of them are SMALLCATS with little hope of expansion and the way they are utilised is both arbitrarily and subjectively. NGS Shakin' All Over 16:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having thought about this, I think there is a case for retaining both Category:War drama films and Category:War drama film stubs so I've removed those two from the proposal. As I've said, the original and it's stub collection are not the problem. The issue is the indiscriminate creation of an unnecessary mass of country and date categories that are being applied subjectively and, with the possible exception of the American and British ones, will never amount to anything other than SMALLCATs. I've left the lost films one in as a SMALLCAT. NGS Shakin' All Over 05:31, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Drama is not a genre that can be used in alliance with another genre because the only non-drama films are documentaries, news films, some propagandas and the like. Whether you are discussing war, historical, biopic, romance, disaster, horror, sci-fi, whatever – they are all dramas. You appear to think that the laziness of sites like AFI, BFI, IMDb, etc. in naming drama as their genre parameter is "legitimate". If a film is clearly a mixture of war and romance, then it is a war romance and not merely a drama. If a film is clearly a mixture of horror and sci-fi, then it is a sci-fi horror and not merely a drama. Anyway, having further considered the response by Andrzejbanas, I've removed his original category from the proposal (see above) because the excessive and subjectively applied date and country subs are the issue, just as they were for the Westerns project. NGS Shakin' All Over 05:31, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Drama is not the sibling of comedy but the parent. Any film or stage play which employs role-playing actors is a drama. While comedy and tragedy were the original two drama genres, there are now several more including romance, sci-fi, horror and so on. Drama is an umbrella term for all genres. So, while war comedy or war romance or war sci-fi are true cross-genres which can comfortably interact, war drama is not because one is a part of the other and the term is illogical. NGS Shakin' All Over 16:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you may think about the way the words should be used, Wikipedia goes with and acts based on the way words actually are used. Regardless of what the technical definition of drama may be, the actual real-world usage is that comedy is fiction that is funny, while drama is fiction that is not funny — and since that's the real world usage, that's the Wikipedia usage too, because Wikipedia goes by real world usage. Bearcat (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"comedy is fiction that is funny, while drama is fiction that is not funny" The intention of the creators has more to do with the genre, than whether the subject matter is genuinely funny. The main plot of The Acharnians involves a pacifist who is threatened with violent death by a lynch mob consisting of war veterans. The funny part is that the play involves a parody of Euripides's tragedies. The main plot of The Wasps involves an attempt to cure the main character from his obsession with trials, but the result is turning him into a violent drunk. The article on the play points out that the character actually displays realistic traits for an addict. The funny part is the implication that Athens was full of such men. Dimadick (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict):Any fictionalised portrayal is dramatised, but that is clearly distinct from how Drama is treated as a genre in a modern sense. Pretty much every databases/catalog I have ever come across accepts Drama as distinct genre. For example, the AFI Catalog classifies Citizen Kane as a "drama", Psycho as a "horror" and Casablanca as a "romance". While there are some minor variations this is pretty much the standard approach. The British Film Institute also classify Citizen Kane as a drama. It is you prerogative to disagree, but this is the standard approach taken by databases and catalogs also academics who write on the subject of genre. Wikipedia has to reflect published writing on genre. As editors it is not in our gift to diverge from that. Betty Logan (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: All categories have now been tagged
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 13:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Black comedies are still comedies, thus upholding a genuine distinction between "war drama" and "war comedy". Bearcat (talk) 14:41, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Christian counselors and psychologists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Christian counselors. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: We don't normally classify by religion and occupation, there's no Category:Christians by occupation, is this WP:DEFINING? Le Deluge (talk) 10:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support renaming per Peterkingiron, and per article titles mentioned earlier. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:18, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As the creator of the category, I have no objection to the shorter name of the category. Should I implement the change? Pete unseth (talk) 14:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, an uninvolved editor should close the discussion and implement it. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Punjabi Artists Discography

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Newly created category, but we don't categorise discographies by ethnicity only by nationality, and Punjab crosses an international border. These should be either in Category:Discographies of Indian artists or Category:Discographies of Pakistani artists. Le Deluge (talk) 09:56, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only actual works are categorized by language, not discographies. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Leisure activity vehicles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 16:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: My searches suggest that this "leisure activity vehicle" term is exclusively used by Groupe PSA, either as a generic term to group closely related products from their different brands together or as a marketing euphemism for "passenger van", with What Car? noting that the "leisure activity vehicle" term is unusual. Looking at sources regarding the types of vehicle that appear in the category shows that they are almost always referred to as "vans", "people carriers", or "MPVs" (eg. Auto Express, Car Magazine, Irish News, Independent, Royal Automobile Club, the I, Top Gear). The Scottish Farmer provided one of the few cases of the term being used which didn't seem to be pulled from a PSA press release, and even then they note that it's synonymous with "multi-purpose vehicle". The closest thing I can establish to a WP:COMMONNAME for this subcategory of small passenger vans would be "van with windows", and even that seems somewhat spurious. Given that PSA have used this "leisure activity vehicle" term to refer to a related selection of vehicles this isn't quite a case of WP:ONEDAY, and it's possible that this term is a translation of one which is more commonly used in a language other than WP:ENGLISH (possibly French), but in WP:ENGLISH it does not seem to be widely applied. Most if not all of the vehicles here are already in other categories like "Category:Compact MPVs" or "Category:Minivans" or just "Category:Vans" anyway so it seems to be largely redundant. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 07:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sports competitions in Novosibirsk

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 29#Category:Sports competitions in Novosibirsk

Category:Alpha-lactones

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 29#Category:Alpha-lactones

Fictional locations of Disney

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 June 29#Fictional locations of Disney

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