- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: allow creation and expansion of Category:Cities in India by state or territory, by creating similar categories as Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The following categories were tagged, so I will rename them as follows to start this off:
- Category:Cities and towns in Chittoor district to Category:Towns in Chittoor district
- Category:Cities and towns in East Godavari district to Category:Towns in East Godavari district
- Category:Cities and towns in Kadapa district to Category:Towns in Kadapa district
- Category:Cities and towns in Nellore district to Category:Towns in Nellore district
- – Fayenatic London 18:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cities and towns are different as per 2011 Census of India. Hence, as per the definition Cities are population with 1,00,000 and towns below them with (Class - I to Class - V). It may have started and grown up and uniformity was maintained but adding all in one category cannot be distinguished. Its like adding all sets under one name, it may be census town, statutory town or a city. So, I say there should be separate category named Category:Towns_in_XYZ_district.--Vin09 (talk) 04:25, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - We can have Separate Categories for both towns and cities in a distinguished way swaroop 06:36, 29 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakthi swaroop (talk • contribs)
- Need clarification, which exact categories would you like to have deleted, renamed or merged and (if any of the latter two) to what? See the nominations above on how to properly present the nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:12, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Note This incomplete nomination (see WP:CFD#HOWTO) refers to Category:Cities and towns in India by district and its 678 subcategories. Pinging Marcocapelle.
@Vin09: I'm not yet convinced of separating towns and cities at district level, but am ready to take further arguments into account. Either way, as promised on your talk page, I'm ready to help you with filing a correct CfD request and tagging the affected 679 categories, so we all can properly discuss the issue. Best regards, PanchoS (talk) 09:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS and Marcocapelle:, definitely I obey you. I would like Category:Cities and towns in Kurnool district to Category:Towns in Kurnool district, this applies to all the similar categories. For example, take Andhra Pradesh. Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh justifies the city categorization. Also, Category:Towns in Kurnool district for towns, can also create Category:Cities in Kurnool district if required. But Category:Cities and towns in Kurnool district can't differentiate which is a city and which is a town. We have Category:Villages in Kurnool district which says all the entries all villages.--Vin09 (talk) 13:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I got your point to add
subst:cfr on category page but, here it is related to many pages. Do I need to add on each page?--
Vin09 (talk) 13:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
[reply]
- Hey, @Vin09: I hope I got your idea right.
I basically agree we should separate Indian cities from mere towns on a state-level, like Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh. With cities being defined as > 100.000 inhabitants, looking at List of cities in India by population it seems there are plenty of cities in most of the 29 states and 7 territories to justify per-state categorization of cities. It however remains to be shown if most of the 683 districts have enough cities to justify per-district categorization of cities. This is the open question in need of clarification.
Now if we went down to district level for cities, we would probably start creating the cities by district categories for all of these districts as subcategory of the cities and towns by district categories.
Then, in a final step, we might want to take the cities and towns by district categories to WP:CFD, or we might want to leave them as they are. As cities are a specific subset of towns rather than a completely different thing, we might want to argue the wording Towns by district perfectly embraces the districts cities (in their subcategory) by definition. Or we might argue to keep the wording Cities and towns by district, if we think cities must be explicitly mentioned to be properly included.
IMHO, we should find an answer to the open question, how many cities the average district would contain. In case there are enough cities, we would then proceed with creating the cities-per-district subcategories, and would only then come back to WP:CfD.
Is this a plan matching what you had in mind? What does Marcocapelle and what do others think about it?
Cheers, PanchoS (talk) 13:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS: It need not be in district. check Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh. We can denote them state wise. Also, check Category:Census towns in Andhra Pradesh. Census towns are again a different set of category.--Vin09 (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vin09: OK, if you don't want to categorize cities by district anymore, then things are even more straightforward: As cities remain a subset of towns, we just need to create additional cities-by-state categories and add all cities to these new categories. No category rename involved.
Unsure if census towns can be generally considered a subset of towns, too, but that shouldn't be our current problem. --PanchoS (talk) 13:54, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS:I think cities are not subset of towns, while there are many towns in a city like smaller municipalities under its urban agglomeration. If we can add cities to new category. What is the need of Cities word in Cities and towns in XYZ district. But still, I obey with your statement.--Vin09 (talk) 13:59, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vin09: C'mon, this is not about obedience. We just need to be clear about the definitions and category scopes before muddling through this enormous number of articles and categories.
More and more I think we need a properly sourced, authoritative definition of the different types of communities in India, going beyond what exists in the lead of List of towns in India by population and the article Municipal governance in India. Are populated communities with 100.000+ inhabitants automatically cities, as defined in the former? Or is there a fundamental difference between towns and cities, as you're suggesting? Or is the city an optional administrative layer above the administrative layer of towns, as the latter article is suggesting? (and in the latter case: are there both cities comprising a single town, and cities comprising several towns?)
I'm really with you that we need some kind of differentiation there, but before starting large-scale category operations involving ten thousands of articles, we really should get this straight. Regards, PanchoS (talk) 14:17, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS: As per Census of India 2011 every city qualifies to be a city if it satisfies 1lakh criteria. Please go through THIS PDF. I've done work on most of the pages. Feel free to ask anymore questions if you need info.--Vin09 (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vin09: Sorry if my nitpicking makes you angry. This is not my intention.
However, it's usually the nominator's duty to present a clear proposal backed by the full argumentation, in order to convince other editors why a long-standing categorization scheme should be profoundly changed. This is even more necessary if a change of the categorization scheme involves 10.000s of articles, possibly much more, and if the definitions and distinctions are not properly given and sourced in an article. Now, the PDF file you presented gives definitions about "statutory towns", "census towns", "outgrowths", and "urban agglomerations". Am I getting it right that with "cities" you're referring to "urban agglomerations"? Furthermore, is this "urban agglomeration" what would usually and internationally be considered a "city" or is it just a statistical category devoid of any real-life significance? Furthermore, on which basis are "census towns" to be considered towns or not? And how would we treat "outgrowths"?
All of these aspects are totally unclear to me, and possibly other readers here. IMHO, there's no way really around a properly sourced definition of these concepts and its inclusion criteria, and a coherent argumentation why we would draw these lines. I might find some time to read up on this subject tonight, but I can't promise. --PanchoS (talk) 14:39, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@PanchoS: I will explain you clearly. All these applies only to India.
- City: population with 1 lakh and above
- Town:Under 1 lakh population (all municipalities, Nagar panchayats towns and are more commonly known with the name Statutory towns)
- Census Town: Characteristics/Qualifies to be a Town but not a town, in between a village and a town
- Village:a rural settlement
Any more info please feel free to write.--Vin09 (talk) 14:52, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Still no answers to my questions. Still no rationale for what should beer changed how and why. On this basis, I'm opposing this botched nomination. --PanchoS (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS: You said you will read concepts in the above para. I explained it clearly, provided sources. Couldn't get your question on what you need info? @Titodutta: as he is an admin from India and aware these concepts.--Vin09 (talk) 06:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably a good idea. May others weigh in. --PanchoS (talk) 06:21, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, please see the example if you may get any idea :
Guntur (city) and
Repalle town are categorized in
Category:Cities and towns in Guntur district. Now, a reader may think either both as a city, or both as a town and sometimes Repalle as a city and Guntur as a town. Infact, Guntur is a city and Repalle is a town. So, if we categorize Guntur (city) under
Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh and Repalle (town) in
Category:Towns in Guntur district it's very easy for a reader to understand which are towns and which are cities.--
Vin09 (talk) 06:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
[reply]
I accept your statement in the above para which states:
:OK, if you don't want to categorize cities by district anymore, then things are even more straightforward: As cities remain a subset of towns, we just need to create additional cities-by-state categories and add all cities to these new categories. No category rename involved.
Unsure if census towns can be generally considered a subset of towns, too, but that shouldn't be our current problem.
What do you say?--Vin09 (talk) 08:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Vin09: So cities are nothing else than a subset of towns, right? If larger than 100,000, towns are named "city", and while some administrative privileges may be tied to the status of a city, the city otherwise represents the same area and the same administrative layer as a town would do? Is this all correct? If yes, then we should be ready to proceed creating the remaining subcategories of Category:Cities in India by state or territory, such as Category:Cities in Andhra Pradesh :) --PanchoS (talk) 08:33, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @PanchoS: First of all I would thank you for this discussion, as we were following Census 2011 and Census 2001 definitions together that made the confusion. Census 2001 definitions were modified now. So, now I say go ahead I support what you said above. I would need your help in future as well, if I get stuck at any issue. Thank you. Cheers!--Vin09 (talk) 08:39, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment In India 100,000 is a lakh. This is thus a notable boundary. If the definition is accepted for more than the purposes of the 2011 census, I think we could allow the distinction and have a split for each state between towns and cities. Both should be sub-cats of "Populated places in foo". However, I do not think we should have towns or cities by district: there are unlikely to be enough in each district to make a category big enough to be worth having. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:22, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.