- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: No consensus for rename/merge. There is, however, a consensus that criteria points #3 and #4 from Keresaspa's comments below cause the category inclusion criteria to be too broad. I might suggest cleaning up the categories based upon the dis-inclusion of those who qualified for #3 and #4. As the rename/merge result was "No consensus", feel free to renominate for further discussion, or to even just start a discussion on a talk page somewhere. - jc37 09:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Nazis from outside Germany (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Rename or possibly delete/merge, depending on outcome of discussion.
Rationale - There are two basic issues here: one is the name of the category, the other is how it's being used. Starting with the name -- if the category is kept, it probably should be renamed to Category:Nazis by nationality, with a new sub-cat for German Nazis created as a sibling to the other existing sub-cats.
However, after taking a quick look through several of the sub-cats (Brazil, Bulgaria, Hungary), I'm not sure that they are being used properly, because most of the individuals do not appear to be honest-to-goodness Nazis (now there's a memorable phrase!), but rather Nazi supporters. (I presume the Austrians were real Nazis, possibly the Swiss as well.) It comes down to how we define the term. I would think that it should be restricted to people who were, in fact, members of an official National Socialist party -- which would appear to eliminate most of the articles I looked at. We could, I suppose, change the categories to something like "supporters of Nazism" if that seems appropriate. Or perhaps there's an entirely different solution out there -- I'm open to suggestions. Notified creator with ((subst:cfd-notify)) Cgingold (talk) 12:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I too lack a clear plan - there are Neo-Fs and Neo-Ns as well all jumbled together (see Jun 18 cfds). -- roundhouse0 (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- After a brief wander round Fascism etc, I find that a (neo)-Nazi is a type of (neo)-fascist ("German Nazism was a form of racially-oriented fascism"). So this makes the (neo)-Nazi cats subcats of the corresponding (neo)-fascist ones. And then subcatting Category:Nazis (or Category:neo-Nazis) by nationality is a standard procedure. Perhaps the inauthentic nazis you have discovered lurking in Brazil etc are more correctly neo-Nazis. -- roundhouse0 (talk) 09:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename to "Nazis by nationality". Organizations like the Germanic-SS included recruits from the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. They were certainly Nazis and not really Germans. Dimadick (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- But few if any the people in these cats were in such groups. Johnbod (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Given that this category and most of the subcategories are my handiwork I should probably say a little about my rationale for creating them.
I chose the term 'Nazis from outside Germany' largely because Nazism was a specifically German phenomenon and so one might assume that Nazis were German. I avoided 'Nazis by nationality' on the basis that I felt a category for 'German Nazis' would be unwieldy and rather wanted something to show the more minor pro-Nazi activism that took place in other countries. I am prepared to concede on this point, although I still do feel that a German Nazis category would look a bit odd.
As for the subcategories I felt when creating them that there were four basic criteria on which someone could qualify:
- The one that seems to have already been accepted here i.e. that the person in question was a member of the German Nazi Party or one of its organisations such as the SS (e.g. Søren Kam, Jakob Schaffner).
- Individuals who, whilst not specifically members of the German party, undertook work on behalf of the Third Reich, specifically recruitment of people in neutral or enemy countries (e.g. Ernst Leonhardt, Carl-Ehrenfried Carlberg).
- Members of movements in countries outside Germany that specifically looked to the Nazis for inspiration and copied large elements of their ideas, organisation etc. I was careful to avoid adding my own interpretations here and instead limited myself to those people who specifically referenced the Nazis (e.g. Zoltán Meskó, Aleksandar Tsankov).
- Those who, regardless of their group affiliation, openly endorsed the Nazis and sought to have Nazi ideas applied to their specific countries (e.g. Oswald Pirow, Gustavo Barroso).
In undertaking this I made a point of not including those who were drawn instead to Italian fascism (such as Elena Bacaloglu) or those who sought to create indigenous forms of fascism (e.g. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu) as these are much better covered by the existing 'Fascists by nationality' category. Similarly those whose contact with Nazism was through collaboration but who otherwise did not show any particular affinity to the ideas of Nazism were also excluded as the 'Collaborators with Nazi Germany' category has that base covered. In a nutshell therefore I created this category as an attempt to bring together the various individuals in the inter-war period who looked specifically to Nazi Germany for their political ideas whilst trying to avoid complicating things by forcing the creation of a German Nazis category. Keresaspa (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- First, I want to thank Keresaspa for providing us with a very thorough explanation about all of this. I most assuredly do appreciate what you were attempting to accomplish, and I of course understand the reason for your choice of name for the category ("Nazis from outside Germany"). However, that wording would be better suited to serve as a section heading for an article. I can see how Category:German Nazis might seem a little odd at first blush, but it's simply a perfectly natural result of the way that Categories are structured. (It's worth noting, by the way, that some editors have a hard time with Category:Israeli Jews for much the same reason.)
- The more difficult problem here is your decision to use very broad inclusion criteria, with the result that actual Nazis have been lumped together with individuals who were Nazi supporters or pro-Nazi activists (or whatever term you prefer). I don't believe you will find much if any support for that among other editors, so the real question is whether there is a workable solution that will allow us to salvage the category structure you've created by renaming along the lines I've suggested. Cgingold (talk) 12:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I should qualify that the people in point 3 above are those who were members of groups included in the 'Nazi Parties' category. Keresaspa (talk) 12:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Please relist for further discussion. Cgingold (talk) 11:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.