The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete to make way for move. — Joseph Fox 15:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yochanan[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is a bit of a mess masquerading as a dab page. Rabbi Yochanan should go here. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Page not needed. --Cox wasan (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect Stuartyeates (talk) 07:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

I've relisted this AfD purely because the deletion !votes haven't given credible reasons that I could understand. Please add new comments below this notice providing policy/guideline support. Thanks, Wifione ^Message 09:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

* Delete and move Rabbi Yochanan to this title. Agree with the nominator, this page should be the dab. Rabbi Yochanan is a less than optimal page title as none of the items include "Rabbi" in the title, which is potentially confusing. Much better to have the page at Yochanan in a section called "Rabbi". The move also solves the need to provide a link to John (given name). France3470 (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. Striking out comment above to avoid confusion. After discussion, I agree with the below proposed merge and find it a preferable solution. France3470 (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Yehochanan (now redirecting to John), Yohanan and Johanan to a single disambiguation page. No reason to delete this; it is a valid search term. "This is a bit of a mess" and "Page not needed" are hardly arguments for deletion. There are plenty of Yo(c)hanans who were not rabbis. --Lambiam 17:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry could you clarify. Johanan and Yohanan are currently not disambiguation pages but rather given name pages. Are you suggesting these pages become dabs? France3470 (talk) 17:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I call any page of the form "XXX may refer to: • XXX-1 • XXX-2 • XXX-3 ..." a disambiguation page, including given-name and surname pages. So Yohanan is a disambiguation page. Johanan is not styled as a disambiguation page, but content-wise it is one: it tells you that the name Johanan can refer to • Johanan, son of Kareah, or • Johanan, son of Jojada. The Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן‎ can be variously transliterated as Yochanan, Yohanan or Johanan, also for the same individual. If it makes you happier, read "given-name page" for "disambiguation page" in my recommendation above. I see no problem in the same page offering some encyclopedic information on a name in the lead, followed by the list(s) of name bearers, as you can see, for instance, at Madison (name). --Lambiam 23:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks. After the clarification, I'd be fine with this proposal of merging them all into a given name article with the current titles becoming redirects. Do you have thoughts on what title should be used? Page views seems to indicate Johanan might be the most common search term, but as ever these might not be the whole picture. France3470 (talk) 00:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Selecting the page title is not an easy call, but following the transliteration guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew), the Hebrew name should be transliterated as Yohanan, and that would indeed be my first choice. However, in English Bible translations of the Old Testament, following the KJV, the spelling Johanan is conventional, and this also gets more Google hits in general. In current Wikipedia articles the use is inconsistent; for example, we have an article Johanan ben Zakai, but Four Sephardic Synagogues has a section Yochanan ben Zakai Synagogue and gives the synagogue's name elsewhere as "Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakai synagogue". --Lambiam 11:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarification: pages with encyclopedia content are not disambiguation pages; disambiguation pages are not valid link targets, but given-name and surname articles are. Given that, I have no objection to the merger, if the name article handles all of the ambiguity without need a separate disambiguation page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to one page per the comments above.--Pink Bull 00:53, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and move Rabbi Yochanan to this title.--Saladacaesar (talk) 12:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.