The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Pilkington. Koncorde and Uncle G, I'll leave it to you, who have read the sources, to make an appropriate mention of this topic in the target article. Sandstein 07:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Burgies[edit]

The Burgies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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The Burgies are a slag heap. They have a kind of local notoriety (the article describes it), but there's pretty much no supporting information for their notability. Existing sources #1 doesn't mention the banks at all and Rushy Park was the name of a large seam, so no evidence this referring to the Colliery in question. One reference I found suggested it stopped being worked by the 40's it seems, by which time it was only being worked as a drift mine in any case so the photograph is unlikely to be from the colliery. #2 is about housing development. #3 is dead, and unlikely to be authenticated in any way. #4 isn't even a source? I would PROD but if someone has something to note it would be good to see because at present everything in the article seems unsupported. Koncorde (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As nominator, and subject to the review, below are issues related to the articles general notability with regards to WP:NGEO:

1. Doesn't meet WP:GEOLAND as an uninhabited slag heap, nor natural feature.
2. Doesn't meet WP:GEOFEAT as no protected status.
3. I think all that remains is if under WP:GNG the question is what counts as WP:SIGCOV. It is clearly mentioned off and on in St Helens Star as local papers often do (though very limited in scope, and mostly speculative). Koncorde (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:14, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• #3 is probably https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/6070034.place-rainbow-grass-grew/ which follows https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/6072859.arm-benders-yedscratter-challenge/ - although not particularly useful as sources. There are also mentions at https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/6161642.stepping-wildlife-paradise/ and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749108006167 and https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/6677101.dawn-of-burgy-banks/ with more significant coverage. Peter James (talk) 06:20, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for finding #3. I suspected it was amateur historian speculation, so that confirms my suspicions on the Burgoo story at least being at best a bit of local speculation.

Not sure the next two support a separate article. Maybe a mention in the main St Helens and History articles about spoil tips needs to be included for some context about local environmental impact. Thanks Peter. Koncorde (talk) 09:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• This is the problem with using slang article titles, and thinking that Project:use common names requires that. It makes it difficult to find what is being written about and doesn't impart knowledge to the reader either. The proper name for this is, as far as I can tell, the grounds of the Pilkington Glass Factory, which could be covered in Pilkington as there is apparently a lot missing from that article, from the welfare programmes and recreation grounds to the factories and how these grounds are a local wildlife site (probably should redirect to Site of Nature Conservation Interest). Do not be fooled by the book title of Pederson 1988. The entry is several pages long. It's not a directory.
  • Pederson, Jay P. (1988). "Pilkington". In Derdak, Thomas (ed.). International Directory of Company Histories. Vol. 34. St. James Press. ISBN 9781558623934. ISSN 1557-0126.
  • "Local Wildlife Sites" (PDF). St Helens Council.
• Uncle G (talk) 10:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If we want to expand the Pilkington entry it would need to start from scratch as nothing in this article seems supported with a lot of crossed wires. There's little to merge that wouldn't need re-sourcing. Regarding the welfare programmes / rec grounds - these were separate to the Burgies which was a dumping ground until relatively recent memory (well beyond 1944) and is referring to the land north of the factory where Pilk Recs rugby club was on City Road, and some of the parts of what became Haresfinch "new" housing estate back in the 30's. Koncorde (talk) 11:12, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would appear, then, that the right course of action is not to delete, but to edit and put a properly sourced sentence somewhere in Pilkington about this local slang name so that people know that they've arrived at the right place, and just redirect this title there. Then add a lot more history. Enjoy Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashington JW RFC (2nd nomination) for more companies with welfare programmes and rugby clubs. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • "The Burgies are two slag heaps in St Helens left to grow wild. Some people walk their dogs on them." seems to be the relative extent then. I am not sure there is any encyclopedic value to a tip site of which, (along with ex collieries) there are about 45 just in St Helens alone. Most of them built on, a good many of them from Pilks. The rec and other stuff, sure, expand the Pilk article. Mention the Burgies? Maybe. But it's more local lore and legend about a tip site than Pilks themselves. Koncorde (talk) 12:53, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Exactly why a redirect serves. The reader who only knows the slang name gets pointed to the real subject and real history, and at least has a way to answer the question "Well why am I suddenly here, then?". Uncle G (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect per Uncle G. Clearly not independently notable but we can provide some encyclopedic information. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:11, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.