The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was userfy to User:Cysinger/Scaje, redirect suppressed. No harm in letting this content stay in userspace for a few months on the chance that satisfactory sources can be found.  Skomorokh  04:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Scaje (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Non-notable band. Evil saltine (talk) 03:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. No hint of notability in article or in news search. See this news archive search for the relevant time period. ^Bongo_matic 03:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Please view the talk page of the original article Scaje and it creators talk page to view arguments on how the page is still notable.Rebshlomorebshlomo (talk) 22:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep After viewing the arguments on the articles talk page I agree that lack of notability is expected in this genre due to sociological reasons. However being a member of the Orthodox Jewish music community I know the bands credibility I say to keep it because they are noted in public opinion.Rebshlomorebshlomo (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Every article on Wikipedia has to be notable via multiple independent reliable sources. Evil saltine (talk) 01:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Lack of notability", whether "expected" or not, means that a topic is not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. ^Bongo_matic 01:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - There are not different standards of band notability based on musical genre or "sociological reasons". Clubmarx (talk) 01:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• There is an ongoing discussion on the talk page about this performer having become very popular through word of mouth in the Jewish community; however unless a written source or two can be found (either online or on dead trees), such assertions are not verifiable, and therefore unless such sources can be provided it will have to be a delete for the time being, with no prejudice against recreation once such sources can be found. I recommend userfying. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 02:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - none of the claims of notability meet WP:BAND. Distributing 600 copies of an album (which BTW, sounds like a nice playlist that I'd like to hear) does not make it. The events described as having played are nice and were probably alot of fun (my old college band played similar stuff) but is not encyclopedic. At the end of the day, WP notability rules are guidelines more than rules. Right now Scaje is not verifiably notable as a topic. If the community decides to keep this article, that is fine. I feel it would shift the requierment from notable to potentialy notable.
  

On a side note, Holy holy hippos wrote on the talk page about articles without sources. He mentioned the article Contemporary Jewish religious music and said that "there are no reference because the genre is adverse to internet use and often is more about the music then the money/fame." He raises an interesting question and I would like to draw the following distinction between an article about a concept and an article about a individual. A concept (in this case a musical genre) can be difficult to define and catagorize. To be honest I don't know what genre to put Yossi Green, Avraham Fried, Uncle Moishy and Shlomo Carlebach in. They are all clearly notable yet their musical style is centered around the religious nature of their work. While Yossi Green is a pop artist and Shlomo Carlebach was a folk guitarist, in both their eyes and in the eyes of the Jewish community they have more in common musically than Green has with a-ha. As such an article about the style that contemporary Jewish musicians play is appropriate (yet difficult to source).

Regarding Scaje and specific bands. Yes, there is a certain notability one can have in a community without major websites or wikipedia articles. This is why WP:BAND offers options of "major tours" and such. Chaim-Dovid is a name that headlines concerts and his albums are sold in every Jewish music retailer in Israel and North America. So even without a website, I feel he qualifies. When Scaje can do that or even reach what Blue Fringe has done, this article should be reinstated. Joe407 (talk) 05:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• KeepYo! I really don understand the whole commotion. Scajes stuff is awsum! And if u were never fortunate enough to hear their stuff, ya jus shouldn go blasting about like, "Yea i never heard of them"... I mean no offense, et with the program in jerusalem. Anyways i heard their having a reunioun after the high holidays in jtown, so be there! Plus, its the only known religious band on the scene that poses alternative rock with infuences ranging from beatles to godsmack. WOw..get with the program.79.181.30.254 (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC) — 79.181.30.254 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • This page is the above user's only contribution. Evil saltine (talk) 22:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep One of the reasons people cant find Scaje in so many checks is spelled out in the article. The name is only a temp. The band isn't crazy about the name and therefore doesnt usually reference to themselves in such a manner. I don't know how many people on this forum have ever been to a Kumzits but I have been to one practically every Thursday and Saturday night for the past three years. Not once in a true Kumzits environment have I seen a band name posted anywhere at the scene. With rare exception any one who wants to come and play does and therefore there are no advertisements that would be commonly found. The music isnt about about what groups is playing but how well they are able to connect people to their true feelings and escape from the environments they are surrounded with in their individual lives. That said I can attest to seeing members of Scaje at the weekly Thursday night Kumzits in the Old City by Judaisms holiest site, the western wall, dozens of times. They also were a staple at events for yeshivot like Sha'arie Tvuna and Nekuda Tova, not that anyone here understands the significance of that. People all over the Mir (a yeshiva with approx. 6,000 students) can tell you about the American kids who go around with their instruments all day long. Scaje, the name, might not be significant to these people and therefore hard to reference, however Scaje the group is definitely well known. I heard these guys over two dozen times before i knew they had a name. From Safed to Jerusalem (and even a few times in the states) my friends and I would run into these guys performing all the time. I think that makes them significant and referenceable as they could possibly go without them altering their artistic style, religious ideals and feelings on selling out. Thanks for hearing my opinion.Welcome back home (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC) — Welcome back home (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • This page is the above user's only contribution. Evil saltine (talk) 22:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I have seen and played with scaje many times. they are a great band and have played with notables such as Dov Shurin, and Eli bayer this band has a lot of promise to be the next greatful dead, but only of the Jewish world.Avijonny (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC) — Avijonny (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• comment Eli Beer is a another real talent coming up in the Kumzits circle. He has a few videos on youtube and is called the next Reb Shlomo by virtually everyone who has heard him. Ran the Thursday night Kumzits by R Motti Freifeld and Nekuda Tova. Someone should make a page on him.173.63.52.157 (talk) 04:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC) — 173.63.52.157 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Userfy per Blanchardb. Unless reliable sources can be found about this band, it's gotta go.  JUJUTACULAR  20:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —Shuki (talk) 22:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. —Shuki (talk) 22:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Userfy per Blanchardb. For the record, there was a request on my talk page to comment here. Either way in this current state, it does not pass WP:N, or WP:RS, if the band is notable some RS should be able to be found (even if it is a non-Internet source), in which case my opinion would change. - Epson291 (talk) 17:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, no evidence from WP:RS that subject meets WP:MUSIC. I would not be averse to userfication to preserve the current content if someone is willing to make a good-faith effort to find such sources. --Kinu ^t/_c 20:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.