The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I guess? In the second round, many new sources have been cited, and no new "delete" opinions have appeared.  Sandstein  09:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Robbert Hartog[edit]

Robbert Hartog (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Probably inadequate basis for notability. Most of the recipients of this award (Bronze Wolf Award) were head of a nation Scouting organization, or members of the World Committee. He was neither, and nothing else is listed. DGG ( talk ) 22:19, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete unless we see some other evidence of notability. An award given by an organization to one of its own leaders, no matter what organization, is very thin grounds for an entire encyclopedic bio. - Brianhe (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree - I do not see how being the recipient of this particular award is an adequate basis to establish notability. Fails WP:ANYBIO and WP:GNG. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 14:43, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I...can't find much of anything. He was Canadian, so maybe there's something in French that I'm missing, but the official list of recipients doesn't even include a citation for why it was awarded, or...any indication why this person was considered exceptional to begin with, beyond being a high ranking bureaucrat for the scouts, which doesn't seem to be in any way qualifying on its own for an article. Even that bit of detail is, at this point, completely unsourced.

The article appears to be a stub, not because it hasn't yet been written, but because there appears to be literally nothing else available to write about. TimothyJosephWood 15:10, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep just got back from overseas, found a Georgian College Robbert Hartog Midland Campus, so in fact there is a thread I will follow the next few days. Nobody who got this award got it out of thin air, as Bduke and Btphelps have repeatedly and well argued over several of these afds. --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:41, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the announcement Georgian College names Midland campus after philanthropist Robbert Hartog (August 25, 2008). Here's an announcement that a Biography of Robbert Hartog, First Chair of CCI's Board, Going to Print although I can't find any other mention of it. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 15:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as articulated on related afds. Some recipients may not make news due to the nature of their community-based, voluntary work, but as one of a few hundred among tens of million world wide scouting members, are definitely noteworthy. — btphelps ^{(talk to me) (what I've done)} 21:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This may be a good time to remind ourselves that supplementary notability guidelines are created as an indication of what types of people are likely to meet GNG. They are not separate standards. If someone wants to make the argument that the award is qualifying, that needs to be shown by demonstrating that the vast majority of recipients are going to be well enough written about that they would pass GNG regardless.

However, the circular argument of:

1. The award bestows notability.
2. Person X received the award.
3. Ergo person X is notable.

Is completely meaningless to the debate, and is not a policy based reason for keeping or deleting an article. Flatly put, if an individual does not make news due to the nature of their community-based, voluntary work, then they are not notable. There's lots of great teachers, social workers, scout leaders, etc. that do great community work, but there is no moral excellence standard for notability on Wikipedia, in the same way there is no moral turpitude standard for deletion. TimothyJosephWood 14:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Based on your statement above "there appears to be literally nothing else available to write about", you clearly didn't look. I looked for only 15 minutes since my return from overseas and found:

• • Corporate Catalyst: A Chronicle of the (Mis)Management of Canadian Business ...By Tony Griffiths p 186 board of Directors of Develcon
  • Directory of Directors Maclean-Hunter Publishing Company, 1980 p 644
  • Bulletin of Ontario Securities Commission 1974 p 178
  • The Blue Book of Canadian Business Canadian Newspaper Services International Limited (COR) Canadian Newspaper Services International., 2008 p H-678
  • Canadian Business Magazine, Volume 49 CB Media, 1976 - Canada p. 30 Robbert Hartog, President and Chief Executive of Waltec Enterprises Ltd
  • Inland Seas, Volume 22, Issue 4 Great Lakes Historical Society., 1966 - Great Lakes (North America) p. 338 Robbert Hartog, Midland, Ontario
  • Standard Directory of Worldwide Marketing National Register Publishing Co. Staff National Register Publishing Company, Macmillan Directory Division, 1990
  • ^[1] multiple patents

and the frosting on the cake

• • House of Commons Debates, Official Report (Hansard), Volume 142, Issues 38-47 E. Cloutier, Queen's Printer and Controller of Stationery, 2008 p 2524 STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS [English] ROBBERT HARTOG Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC): "Mr. Speaker, a week ago Sunday, my riding lost one of its most celebrated community leaders and builders." Born in the Netherlands and schooled as an economist, Hartog helped to rebuild the economy of the Netherlands after World War II...^[2]
  • Teahen, Shannon. Robbert Hartog: A Lifetime of Changing Lives. c, 2009.

So we now have that he was an economist, a philanthropist, a business leader and a bit of an inventor, where he lived and the year he died, enough to have a book written on him and a eulogy in the Canadian House of Commons. I don't even have access to an English library here in Japan. Where again did you pretend to look, timothyjosephwood? Put away the smug and the arguments about what the arguments may and may not be about-everyone is free to engage on these--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:20, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - changed from delete thx to Kintetsubuffalo's sources. The statement I made earlier about a single award being too thin stands, but the Waterloo Press book (ISBN 0968282741) tips the scales. Unfortunately not in a library close to me. - Brianhe (talk) 04:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

DGG I appreciate what you were trying to do in listing this one, and I agree the Bronze Wolf itself needs to be notability-proofed so we don't have to go through 300+ of these, however as what I found points to him being someone of notability and substance, may I prevail upon you to give this one a rethink?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment References must be based on the guidelines set out at WP:RS and relevant policies.

The Corporate Catalyst, Directory of Directors, Bulletin of Ontario Securities Commission 1974, The Blue Book of Canadian Business Canadian Newspaper Services International Limited 2008, Canadian Business Magazine, Volume 49, Standard Directory of Worldwide Marketing National Register Publishing, Inland Seas, Volume 22, Issue 4 Great Lakes Historical Society are all trivial listings in directories, none of which provide anything more than Hartog's name. As per WP:BASIC, trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability. It futher explains that Non-triviality is a measure of the depth of content of a published work, and how far removed that content is from a simple directory entry or a mention in passing ("John Smith at Big Company said..." or "Mary Jones was hired by My University") that does not discuss the subject in detail. A credible 200-page independent biography of a person that covers that person's life in detail is non-trivial, whereas a birth certificate or a 1-line listing on an election ballot form is not.

It has also been put forward that Hartog is notable because he is listed on some patents. Being listed as an inventor on a patent is also a trivial mention. While the invention listed in a patent may possibly be notable, this does not automatically confer notability on the inventor. Looking at the patents, neither are particularly notable - one is for a sink bowl and the other is for a sink attachment.

The next reference is a member statement provided in the Canadian House of Commons on his death. I can only see a snippet but nevertheless I believe that this contributes to notability although I would hesitate to rely solely on a mention as a measure of notability. I would also be sure that you cannot rely on the factual accuracy of anything said in the House of Commons, especially for the purposes of an encyclopedic article.

The final reference is a book where Hartog is the subject written by Shannon Teahen. This source from St. Jerome's University describes the background to the book as follows:

Shannon Teahen (BA ’07) celebrated the launch of her book Robbert Hartog: A Lifetime of Changing Lives in January at the Midland YMCA. Shannon was completing her master's degree in History at the University of Waterloo in 2008 when Prof. Kenneth McLaughlin approached the circulation desk of St. Jerome’s University Library, where Shannon worked part-time, to offer her the opportunity to write this book. Since then she has travelled across Ontario, to Europe and Thailand, discovering the role Hartog played as a businessman, philanthropist, community leader, initiator, supporter, booster, and mentor.

Also, I believe the book is self-published (publisher listed as University of Waterloo Press which caters for self-publishing and on-demand printing). For me, I would hesitate to rely on this book as a third-party as articles should be based on reliable third-party published sources from reliable authors and we do not currently have enough details to assess this book. Perhaps someone could access a copy of the book to determine whether it is a reliable source? -- HighKing⁺⁺ 15:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Might be notable if rewritten to emphasise the business career. But if member statements in the HoC are like items inserted in the US Congressional Record they are worth exactly nothing, as each representative can have printed anything they like. They don't even have to go to the trouble of actually saying it. DGG ( talk ) 15:34, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I just ran a quick search, and found an newspaper article from which I improved & sourced article. The article, a profile that also covers significant civic involvement and scouting, was prompted by his philanthropy; but it is from a small city daily and I therefore presume that it is a WP:RS. (I linked here form an AFD about another Scout volunteer. I have a personal admiration for immigrants who found multi-million $$$ corporations, sell up, and make huge gifts to charity.) Founding a major corporation confers notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• @Kintetsubuffalo: I think the better question is: where did you look?..that you found a dozen print sources not available online in 15 minutes. Furthermore, a google patent search is not a reliable source, and the search besides returns two unremarkable patents, with the rest of the results appearing to be references to him, and not anything by, or principally about him. As pointed out above, some portion of the references to those who have access to them, seem to be only trivial mention, and a hat tip in the HoC, which, without further context, doesn't necessarily demonstrate anything other than the goodwill of an MP. TimothyJosephWood 13:40, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And thus evaporates the fragile ceasefire that was starting to hold earlier today... See that strip above that reads (Find sources: "Robbert Hartog" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference)? That's where I looked. Go ahead and keep your head in the sand, but taken cumulatively, looks an awful lot like Hartog is in fact notable, meanwhile your statement above "there appears to be literally nothing else available to write about" was written without actually trying to look. Just sayin'.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Corporate Catalyst - Literally a single passing mention
• Directory of Directors - Literally a single passing mention
• The Blue Book of Canadian Business - Literally a single passing mention
• Canadian Business Magazine - Literally a single passing mention
• Inland Seas - No idea, snippet view only that doesn't mention him
• Standard Directory of Worldwide Marketing - Literally a single passing mention
• Multiple patents - No, two patents, a google search is not a reliable source, and the patents are of no apparent importance

So maybe to clarify, when I said that I find nothing, what is implied is that I take sources like these, and I completely disregard them, because they are the definition of trivial coverage. What I don't do is simply copy/paste a google book search to make it look like there's lots of coverage of this individual where there isn't.

There was no cease fire because there was no war. If you make a good argument I will agree with you. If you make a poor one I will not. This is a poor argument, and these sources you have loaded onto the article, some of which you don't even have access to because there is no ebook version, should be removed, because they add no information, do not contribute to notability, and were added without regard for their importance, reliability, and above all context, which for most of them you don't even have to evaluate in the first place. TimothyJosephWood 18:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Sourcing Hartog, who arrived in Canada as an immigrant, was a successful businessman. News archive searches on his name turned up articles in major publications mention his appointment to the Boards of Directors of several corporations. In addition to the corporation I added to the article, he was president and general manager Huronia Precision Plastics, and I didn't go beyond the second page of the search. In those 2 pages - in addition to several appointments to Boards of Directors - he was in the news for his donation to a College, and to the YMCA, and appeared in a feature profile of a local busineess owner reminiscing about how Hartog intorduced him to the Boy Scouts. This is an inferior article, largely sourced to primary sources when I came to it, obviously started by an editor interested in Hartog's commitments to Scouting. However, my searches indicate that Scouting was only one of his civic/philanthropic commitments, that he was given sundry awards by other civic organizations, and that he was able to make these gifts because he was a documentably successful founder of successful businesses. E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• WP:HEYMANN Not the most thorough HEYMANN ever, but I did clean up the lede, removed a paid obit used as a source. I also rewrote the 2nd paragraph, which is WP:RS to the 2 newspaper articles found, added, and cited.E.M.Gregory (talk) 03:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.