The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Colorado Springs nightclub shooting. Star Mississippi 04:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Richard M. Fierro[edit]

Richard M. Fierro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Clear case of WP:1E, the subject is known solely for his involvement in the Colorado Springs nightclub shooting. Everything that needs to be said about him can be covered in that article WWGB (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Military, and Colorado. WWGB (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I thought this article was PRODded. It clearly doesn’t meet BLP1E as written, and I’m not sure if writing about his ownership of a Colorado Springs brewery is notable enough to save it. --Alison (Crazytales) (talk; edits) 05:37, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The prod was removed.[1] WWGB (talk) 06:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the prod. Given the massive wave of WP:SIGCOV focused on Fierro in major worldwide news outlets, an AfD is appropriate to allow the community to decide whether the correct outcome here is to delete, redirect, or keep. Bear in mind that WP:BLP1E leaves room to preserve stand-alone articles on heroic figures (e.g., Sully Sullenberger/US Airways Flight 1549, James Shaw Jr./Nashville Waffle House shooting) in addition to the event where the coverage is sufficiently pervasive. This AfD provides a deliberative process for the community to make that assessment. Cbl62 (talk) 11:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've tripled the size of the article, sourcing articles from across the U.S. political spectrum. I appreciate your thoughts and hope that others will take a look at its current state before it's precipitously swept away. This guy has had rather illustrious academic, military, professional and entrepeneurial careers for almost 30 years, winning many academic, military, entrepeneurial and professional awards, despite suffering from combat-induced PTSD for more than eight years. There's little about him that isn't remarkable. Compare what [[Anthony Sadler]] did as 6th man to a pile-on taking down a terrorist, and he's accomplished and compared to say, [[Alek Skarlatos]], an empty-headed early community college dropout and the 5th man arriving at the pile-on. Both have articles. Skarlatos has had the Republican party throw away over $10 million failing to get him elected to the Douglas, OR, county commission and twice to congress. Their buddy [[Spencer Stone]], was the real hero of the affair, IMHO, along with American expat Mark Mooglian, who has no article as both men actually took and kept the terrorist down. Stone also ably tended to Mooglian's horrific wounds, saving his life, before the train they were on eventually arrived at a French community with a hospital. Activist (talk) 12:30, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sadler did not get an article until several years later, and Skarlatos appeared on Dancing with the Stars within a month which bolstered his notability. Not the best comparisons. --Pokelova (talk) 13:02, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Defer decision: It's a breaking story probably will attain WP:NOT as we speak. No point deleting and then reinventing the wheel four days later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidgood (talk • contribs)
• Redirect to the main shooting article Pyraminxsolver (talk) 06:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Colorado Springs nightclub shooting, pure WP:1E. Mztourist (talk) 07:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — Preceding unsigned comment added by BostonMensa (talk • contribs) 17:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect for now. Too soon to say if his fame will be fleeting or enduring. If it's enduring, no prejudice to recreating. Cbl62 (talk) 19:39, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Colorado Springs nightclub shooting As an article, it's a BLP1E, but it would make a plausible redirect ('Sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article.'). I also concur with the reasoning of Cbl62-- if coverage of Fierro lasts, we can always recreate the article later. ◇HelenDegenerate◆ 20:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect as much as I think Mr. Fierro is an absolute hero (who also runs an award-winning brewery), I must agree that a standalone article for him is not warranted right now, per WP:BLP1E. Kingoflettuce (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Reditect. Subject is not notable enough under BLP. --My tightness (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Too soon. Significant coverage in RS, but it's too early to tell if they'll be notable beyond this event. Redirect —Locke Cole • t • c 16:30, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This one is easy. Here's a solid precedent. We have articles for three Americans who helped stop a heavily armed terrorist on a train from Brussels to Paris, as recounted in the 2015 Thalys train attack article. The first three passengers who tried to intervene were an unnamed Frenchman, a Brit, and an American expat living in Paris. The expat first grappled with the terrorist, taking his AK47 knockoff away momentarily, but the terrorist retrieved an ancient Luger and shot the expat in the chest and neck, 'through and through," severing an artery next to his attacker's throat and retrieving his automatic rifle. At that point, coming from the far side of the railway car, a U.S. Air Force soldier, Spencer Stone charged the Moroccan would-be killer, taking him down and knocking the rifle out of his grip, though the terrorist was cutting him badly on the face and hand. Then Stone's childhood friend, Alek Skarlatos, joined him, retrieved the rifle from the floor, and began hitting him in the face with its muzzle, fortunately not killing his friend Spencer, who was holding the terrorist from underneath, in the process. Then Sadler and the Brit helped tied the terrorist up. Spencer then got up and put his thumb into the expat's exit wound stopping the hemorrhaging of arterial blood, and saving his life. Spencer almost lost his thumb and was nearly blinded in one eye. The 62-y/o Brit is quoted as saying, "I'm not going to be the guy who dies sitting down." "If you're going to die, try to do something about it," which anticipates Fierro's reaction. There are now WP articles for the three Yank buddies. They gave notes to a reporter who compiled them into a boring book. Clint Eastwood made a movie about the incident, but used the actual trio who fell considerably short of getting good reviews. Skarlatos was invited on Dancing with the Stars and a professional dancer partner carried him to second place. Though he only had a few community college courses in his resume, he first ran for county commissioner and lost to another Republican. That party then spent over $5 million each year in 2020 and 2022 trying to get him elected to congress in Oregon District 4. He was easily dispatched by the incumbent in 2020, then by the state Labor Commissioner in 2022. A video in which he joked about women choking to death while giving oral sex may have compromised his aspirations. A TV campaign ad falsely claimed he was endorsed by President Obama. Spencer Stone intervened in another situation of unprovoked street violence in Sacramento where he lives, almost getting killed in the process. Fierro has used his opportunity to credit others with helping to subdue the "alleged" killer and to address the problems in the United States about the proliferation of automatic firearms and the vilification and demonization of behavioral minorities. He is an ex-US Army Major, a vet of 15 years, a tour in Iraq and three in Afghanistan. I'd suggest that the proponents of deletion of the article read the source articles posted so far, whose references I've brought up to standards, before making such a judgment. Thanks to you all. Activist (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Activist: I hear you, and James Shaw Jr. is another example of a mass-shooting hero. But the difference is the others have had sustained coverage. Fierro may well end up fitting that bill as well (I suspect he will). That's why I favor a "redirect" that allows for the article to revived once it is shown that the coverage is not fleeting. Cbl62 (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks. The issue is notability. I just Googled Fierro's name and got sixteen million, three hundred thousand hits. Of course it's early, and so more may be coming. Activist (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I also Googled Fierro's name abroad. He was also mentioned in foreign news sources, i.e., Britian's The Independent, The Guardian, etc. His daughter had her fiancee killed in the shooting. She was injured as well, she had a broken kneecap, for example, yet he did not express personal rancor, but pointed out broad societal problems in a context for what had happened. Before this year, the L.A. Times features reporter who covered the story had written up a story on unique and fascinating commercial and cultural aspect of Richard and his wife's brewery, though another assignment kept him from expanding and publishing it. Activist (talk) 20:20, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I've expanded the article somewhat, which should remove it from a possible "stub" classification, and I'll continue to do so. Activist (talk) 21:36, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the above "keep" argument relates to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. WWGB (talk) 02:31, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Sure, this is a very slapdash article about a BLP1E, but I don't see any reason to believe that it will remain slapdash (or that its subject will remain a BLP1E) indefinitely. I would recommend that everybody hold their horses for a few days and see where the dust settles. Note that I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an AfD at all: just that it will be a much more productive one in a week, or a couple weeks, or whatever. jp×g 01:23, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to the shooting. He's only known for his connection to this shooting; therefore, this falls under BLP1E. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:14, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Right. And Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is only known for one marathon bombing, and John Hinckley, Jr. ls only known for shooting one presidential press secretary, and Sully Sullenberger is only known for landing one plane on the Hudson River, and, and, and... Activist (talk) Activist (talk) 13:35, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  If Fierro continues to receive much coverage over time then we can consider an article, but right now that is not the case. All his article says is veteran tackles shooter and receives thanks from politicians with some loony attacks from the far-right. Everything significant about him can be easily introduced into the article about the shooting. Sully, Hinckley, and Tsarnaev are different largely because the events they were involved in are different as well. I hate to put it this way but this is a run of the mill mass shooting that's all to common in the US today. It's not a attempted assassination of the president, historic water landing, or significant bombing. Nikolas Cruz has received coverage years past his shooting, but he doesn't have an article because he doesn't need one. Everything about him is covered in the shooting, and the same principle applies here. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 21:15, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

James Shaw Jr. is the better comparison. Cbl62 (talk) 04:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A much better comparison, and thanks for calling attention to that article. Activist (talk) 11:21, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect per BLP1E as others have correctly argued. -- Veggies (talk) 03:59, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect as above. If Activist could stop bludgeoning the discussion with WP:WHATABOUT, that would be great. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:44, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.