The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete - as hoax. --Haemo 20:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Principality of Estland[edit]

I am preserving this at my user page if anyone wishes to view the content in future- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JJJ999JJJ999 03:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Principality of Estland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

hoax Such state never existed, the article contains random statements from the era of Livonian War.--Termer 10:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment- undecided until I do some research, but if this IS a hoax, it is BJAODN worthy... brilliant, and look how long it has lasted... very impressive.JJJ999 10:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Well, it's taken a while to clean up all this brilliant nonsense the guy has created and nobody knows how much is left of it. He/she should also get the first prize for sockpuppetry on WP :User:Tuulispask AKA User:Casesoccur [1] more than 10 accounts. --Termer 10:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • another one- I guess this means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugaunia is also a hoax... both deserve considerable praise, that they lasted this long is nothing short of brillaint. I am astoundingly impressed, the Ugaunia one lasted 2 years easily... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade must be one too, assuming the first is a hoax...JJJ999 10:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Ugaunia has it's problems but it was an ancient county once, please see google books, the title is OK [2]--Termer 11:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• • Impressed comment 2- apparently this guy named Bloomsfield is responsible for sockpuppeteering, and he was blocked after being found to have dozens upon dozens of accounts. He has been able to leave lord knows how much in the way of articles, like this one for eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Trubetskoy, I wonder how long this took...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/BloomfieldJJJ999 11:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment some of my favorites are Magnus of Livonia, Maria of Livonia, one I've done some clean up on is Kingdom of Livonia--Termer 11:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, are you suggesting that some of these are real? My feeling is all are fake, and I'm pretty impressed... it looks like this will take weeks upon weeks to clean up and delete them.JJJ999 11:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The people were real, the titles were nominal given by Ivan IV during Livonian War. The articles should be renamed and rewritten: "Magnus of Livonia" was known as Duke Magnus of Holstein. And the only one who was calling Maria a Queen was Magnus himself perhaps and Ivan IV. --Termer 11:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The History of the Baltic States, by Kevin O'Connor, can be viewed on Google books, and includes a timeline of historical events. During the years 1561-1578, there's no mention of Estonian independence, although Estland became a duchy within the Kingdom of Sweden in 1584. Mandsford 14:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment It's no Upper Peninsula War, but it's not bad. I found this on Google Books, though it's by far the best thing I've found so far. I'm not convinced it's a hoax, but that is what it's looking like. faithless (^speak) 21:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment to this
  • Principality of Estland under Teutonic Order in the book refers to Teutonic Order's Baltic branch: Livonian Order p.60. The Livonian (Teutonic) Order bought the Principality of Estland = Danish Estonia from Denmark in 1346 p.64 and it existed within the Livonian Confederation under the rule of Livonian (Teutonic) Order until Livonian War when it became a part of Sweden in 1561:
  • Principality of Estland under the Swedish rule = Swedish Estonia; and then in 1721 it became a part of Imperial Russia.
  • Principality of Estland the Imperial Russian province of Estland = Reval Governorate renamed in 1796 Governorate of Estonia (Estland) (Russian: Estlyandskaya guberniya)--Termer 00:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree... the fact that it has been around this long, that the user is a sockpuppet, and we are still discussing whether it is real makes it far more sophisticated than the upper peninsula war.JJJ999 02:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Some of the best jokes in the article about this "former country".
    • The Info box claims Capital Reval (occupied by Sweden).
    • From the article The analysis indicates that during the Livonian War a pro-independence wing emerged among the Livonian gentry and townspeople, forming the so-called "Peace Party". follow the link you'll find out that The Peace Party is a small political party in the United Kingdom founded in 1996.--Termer 07:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Hot damn. At first read, it does look like a real article on a real state. But as noted by several people above, this is all gibberish. Nothing in the history section seems to be actually about "Estland", rather its all about random people and events of this geographic area, which gives it an air of legitimacy. However, its all total crap. This may be one of the best hoaxes ever at Wikipedia. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, there is going to need to be a LOT of clean-up after this mess. This "Estland" bullshit seems to have leaked into other articles on REAL people and topics, such as: Magnus of Livonia, Bishopric of Reval, Livonia, Swedish Estonia, Duchy of Courland and Semigallia, hell there are probably many more, I got tired of searching for them. This link may help: [3]. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not so bad, it was just the ones you mention and a couple of others, half a dozen all in all. I've delinked anything from mainspace now [4]--victor falk 09:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Im estonian and even I did not mark it immediately as a Hoax unlike some others this person created and others ferociously fought for. But once you read it it is gibberish indeed. The terms he uses are valid in certain context, we have heard them in history classes. That makes it so difficult. --Alexia Death the Grey 09:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Nice hoax. I hope all the talent and effort that went into creating it can be redirected toward writing and improving articles about real things, people and places. Edison 22:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• NOTE: see also: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sackalia. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sackalia is ancient Sakala county, Ugaunia is Ugandi county. Both articles should be moved and kept, ie resp. Sakala (county) and Ugandi. I will move the latter. -- Sander Säde 03:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Admin help is needed with moving Ugandi. It seems that Bloomfeld's socks have been busy with that redirect as well. -- Sander Säde 03:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I took care of it--Termer 05:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What should be done about Ugaunians? Move to Ugalased? -- Sander Säde 06:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sander Säde Re: @ Talk:Ugaunians--Termer 06:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Is no-one else going to nominate this for BJAODN? I am still stunned at how long and how much this guy did...JJJ999 05:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • BJAODN got MFD'ed about 2 months ago. It is only a memory... --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Going through the creators contributions I found this: Baltic State another suspicious short lived country...--Alexia Death the Grey 08:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'd slow down with this. It wasn't a country but it was an attempt to establish a formally independent Duchy by the Baltic Germans during the German Occupation of Estonia and Latvia in 1918. --Termer 08:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're thinking of the United Baltic Duchy aren't you? --victor falk 11:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

victor falk, correct, thats what I was talking about. The redirect from Baltic State should go to Baltic States instead perhaps.--Termer 15:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats a very good idea. Ive done exactly that.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly what seems to be wrong with these articles and is making cleanup so hard. There is a root of truth in them, but the presentation is anything but valid. This duchy is hardly a short lived country... It needs to be corrected. And the redirect deleted...--Alexia Death the Grey 10:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I've seen some articles conserved before, like the Upper Peninsula war... why is this not kept with them by someone?JJJ999 23:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, perhaps we should something like The AfD Hoax Trophy Gallery...--victor falk 23:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as hoax. Renata 00:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.