The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No strong consensus has come through over the three weak run of this AFD Nja247 08:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Akram Shammaa[edit]

Prince Akram Shammaa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

with all respect:

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

with all respect for the person that this article talks about, and with all respect to the author, but I had to say that I havn't heard this name in spite I am syrian and I think I know enough about the syrian history. what is mentioned here is not enough to be considered as significant in formulating the syrian history or even small opposite movement in the modern syrian history. the only significant event or contribution mentioned in the article is leadership in a protest against Adib shishakli. this information I couldnt find it in special histrical books... the article mentions few local encyclopedias about alleppo personalities but even if this truth was correct, I couldnt consider it significant enough to make this biography notable for wikipedia while there is no other resources on the web confirm that. the second problematic point is the title: Prince. the author depends on some claims that this person is the head of Aleppo family which comes from Zengide dynasty. I dont know if that is true or not, but even so zenide dynasty is one of many dynasty ruled syria about 1100 during the crusade wars.... Nourdin zengi for example is considered real hero beside Sallah eldein in the islamic history. but still all of those were ruling under formal declaration of the Abbaside caliphate in Baghdad. and in spite that the real authority was for them Zengids and Ayubies but we cannot consider them as ruling family even the method of selecting the next ruler wasn't exactly clear. so I donno if we can use the title Prince or even if it is logical to link modern family with such ancient dynasty. I doubt that such a link after almost 1000 years could be confirmed. the resources in the article are mostly talking abut the Zengids and thier rules in restoring palastine. even the interwiki is refers to the Zengids articles in other wikipedias. --Chaos (talk) 17:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | Talk 00:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, (X! · talk)  · @180  ·  03:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Andibernard (talk) 1:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


well regarding the title .. I will discuss it later .. but now regarding the political work : you have mentioned ( he has pivotal role in Hafiz Asad's coup) .... well logically how could a civil citizin who is exciled to neighbor country to play role in military coup. then you continue in descriping the asad's coup and its results .. couldnt you describe in detail this pivotal role if it really exists. the website that you have used is either not working or as I remeber has irrevelant informations.--Chaos (talk) 06:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

regarding the title: I would say sure I was wrong .. Zengid has ruled within the Seljuk Empire and the the Ayybids... actually this period is so complicated and I could make some mistakes .. but the idea was not to deal with the islamic history as the european history. in previous discussion you tried to call Zengid dynasty as Royal family which is european western concept and could be misleading in our context here. for this reason there is no solid base to consider every meber who could have lik to Zengids as Prince.. I could provide you names of many Families who could claim lineage linked to Abbasids who were really official royal dynasty if we can consider that acceptable concept. so should we consider them princes now??

now as we cannot consider the title is official title, then we need confirmed political role or contribution in public life. I was searching for such a role in the article and i couldnt find any specific significant roles except:

unfortuantely it is impossible for me now to get access to the books you mentioned but these books seem like local encyclopedias about aleppo personalities. and for sure such a person who could belong to Aleppo high class would be mentioned in such books. but that not enough for me to consider that notable for wikipedia. I am not sure about the date of thier release .. if they are already in public domain ... you could scan these books and i will help u uploading them to arabic wikisource. I encourage ppl to do that in Arabic wikipedia. to be continued --Chaos (talk) 07:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true" Please read the whole policy article carefully. Whether you disagree with the references or you don't find it logical is totally subjective and unprofessional. I haven't written the books I only cited what they have mentioned, I find it weird that you are referring to those books as "local" repetitively, I have never been to Syria in my life and yet I found those books on the shelves of my university library. The matter of fact that you disagree or try to delegitimize those references and the work of other scholars doesn't make sense. Again the same issue with the title, I did not call the subject prince on my own, as previously mentioned 3 references referred to him as prince and one reference referred to his family as descendents of the Zengid dynasty (refer to my earlier comments). The Biography and political career references are in accordance with Wikipedia policy and are from renowned authors by renowned publishers, and are more reliable than online referencing, again please read carefully Wikipedia policy before criticizing or disagreeing with the content. --Andibernard (talk) 1:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


Well Andi ... I think you too miss the point I am talking about. I began by saying if there is a title like Prince then it is not official and depend on relatives traces back to thousand of years, if we can confirm it. so I am saying concepts like royal family souldn't be applied in this case. secondly : regardless of the title... it is enough if the man has significant notable political or social contribution. but what I was discussing that even your resources couldn't mention notable work for this person. I am sorry .. but usually we are very strict inarabic wikipedia regarding biographies of living people. if a person doesn't hasn't really an significant impact o the public life or the historical politics in his country ... we couldn't consider his biography notable and eligible for wikipedia. not everything published is good and you can find alot of pblishied things which is stupid and unlogical. I think I explained my viewpoint so well so I won't comment here again --Chaos (talk) 09:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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