The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus Some of the sources such as the Deseret article and the NYT references do constitute independent reliable sources but it is not that they are non-trivial enough to satisfy WP:ORG. If there were a few more calls for deletion I would be more comfortable closing this as delete for now but as it stands below there does not appear to be anything resembling a consensus. I recommend that a merge may make sense, possible to the main page about the Ex-gay movement. JoshuaZ 01:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Follow-up point so it is very clear: references by others in the Ex-gay movement do not constitute independent, reliable sources. JoshuaZ 01:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

People Can Change[edit]

People Can Change (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article was originally nominated for speedy deletion per A7, a non-notable group. The author contested the nom, and provided some references on the article's talk page. I changed the nom to ((prod)), to allow the author some time to improve the article by asserting the notability. The author expanded the article, and removed the ((prod)) tag, with the edit summary "removed warning since I have improved this article as outlined in talk page." I'm moving the discussion to AFD, since the article is now a contested prod, and to assess whether the author has indeed established the notability of the organisation sufficiently. Procedural listing, no opinion. AecisBrievenbus 12:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - The Deseret News is a secular paper with the second highest distribution in Utah. It has credibility in its field regardless of its ownership. (I am not saying whether or not it is actually owned by the LDS church; I don't know.) Furthermore, your attacks on the LDS church are not only irrelevant, but also false. The LDS Church does not currently, nor has it ever held that point of view. Also, they do not take in people under 18. Joshuajohanson 21:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

tionally the article appears to be more interested in soapboxing and self-advertisement than being informative and encyclopaedic. There also seems to be an underlying attempt at pushing a homophobic agenda. ---- WebHamster 12:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I count three paragraphs with direct reference.
  • Paragraph 4 - "he started People Can Change"
  • Paragraph 9 "Our philosophy is if the core needs are met in non-sexual ways, male bonding among other things, the desire for the sexual attraction diminishes" (Wyler representing People Can Change's philosophy)
  • Paragraph 10 "60 percent of those who have gone through his weekend seminars."
I also think the other paragraphs (about Wyler's transformation and medical disagreements) are very much about PCC.Joshuajohanson 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)![reply]
  • Response I'm open to changing my vote if the article is modified to pass WP:ORG, but as it stands, it doesn't. Responding to your points about the sources: DesertNews mentions the organization only in passing, LifeSite.net does not seem to have any "established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight" (see WP:RS), BoxTurtleBulletin is a blog (see [[WP:RS]), and PeopleCanChange.com cannot as a self-published source establish notability (see WP:SELFPUB). A google news search reveals a couple more in-passing mentions of the group, but nothing along the lines of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (WP:N). Fireplace 19:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response. I'm also open to changing my vote, based solely on RS. I agree it needs more reliable third party sources, but I think the effort is there and this deletion needs to be postponed a week or two. My vote, for now, is to let it breathe a while, give the significant contribs a chance to flush out and flesh out the notes, maybe tag it with [citation needed]? If nothing new and significant changes/improves, renominate. It isn't SPAM, it's a (small but real) ORG, just needs 3rd party sources. Keeper | 76 19:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see the problem with the Deseret Morning News article. It is more than a "passing mention". The article talks about the founder, discusses the upcoming Journey into Manhood weekend in Utah, which is one of the major productions put on by People Can Change, talks about the APA objections, goes back to talking about the Journey into Manhood weekend, gives Wyler's figures that 60 percent of the participants have seen some change, and then challenges those results. The whole article is about People Can Change, even though the words "People Can Change" are only used once and it is latter referred to as "the weekend". So to summarize, People Can Change has had significant coverage in Marketwire[7], Deseret News[8], and Christian Newswire[9], as well as substantial coverage within the ex-gay universe.Joshuajohanson 20:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the Deseret Morning News article, all the links you point to are merely reprintings of a press release sent out by People Can Change. Those sites do not have an "established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight" (WP:RS). Fireplace 20:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You say these are reprintings of press releases. Where do you get that idea? Typically, press releases are marked as such and don't have interviews with the creators as the Marketwire source does.Joshuajohanson 21:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further review of the Desert News article, Joshua Johanson's assertion is correct, the article is independent of the organization, is mostly about the organization (both pro and con are discussed). Small organizations like this one won't have a ton of stuff, but there is no standing rule that says "one" independent, reliable source isn't enough. Keep. --Keeper | 76 21:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally,as long as we are quoting policy: " 'Verifiable' in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." (singular). (Taken from Wikipedia:Verifiability) The RS guideline also states that it is perfectly acceptable to use "less reliable" sources in articles about themselves, so the peoplecanchange.com sources would seem appropriate in an article called People Can Change, don't you think? IMO, of course. Keeper | 76 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding your second point, WP:ORG specifically excludes "press releases... and other works where the... group talks about itself—whether published by the... group itself, or re-printed by other people" as reliable sources that can be used to establish notability.
  • Regarding your first point, my reading of the Deseret News Article has it being mostly about Glenn Wyler, Russ Gorringe, about ex-gays and reparative therapy in general, and only incidentally about the two ex-gay groups it mentions, People Can Change and Evergreen. Whether this sole mention counts as "substantial coverage" from reliable sources (the WP:ORG requirement) is debatable, but I think it fails. Fireplace 21:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We may have to agree to disagree here, fireplace, because I think we are viewing the same article (Desert News) two different ways. I read it as being started and finished with a two-sided, descriptive view of the organization, and it's cited in this article as such. I will say, however, that I do agree with your first point (which responds to my second point :-); and I'll add that I wasn't attempting to claim that the PCC "self-released" articles assert notability. Far from it. I was only attempting to claim that they were acceptable to exist on a page about itself, as long as other WP:RS's were present. The contention really is over the outside sources. (Desert News, et al). Previously, I stated that we really just need to slow down the AfD to allow time for outside reliable sources to be added (or not added), and I'll personally add that because of the contentiousness of the issue and of the organization, due diligence should absolutely be taken here by all editors/voters, to be sure to avoid showing our our POV's. (myself included) Keeper | 76 21:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, If you delete this page, you will also have to delete Jerusalem Open House and every other page like it listed on List of gay-rights organizations and who knows what else. Many of the refs on List of gay-rights organizations would also have to go. And that would be a shame. If people seriously question the objectivity of the info presented here about PCC, perhaps a Refimprove tag is the most appropriate solution.LCP 19:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the organisation simply having a passing mention in a 1.5 line paragraph in the NY Times article is hardly "non-trivial" or "substantial". And the QT movie of the interview is ostensibly the same storyline. The NARTH article is an "in universe" publication so can hardly be deemed independent, let alone classed as a reliable source. All the others have already been discussed. Yet again all these references do is demonstrate existence, mostly with a passing reference, they don't demonstrate notability. Your batting average is not good I'd say. ---- WebHamster 21:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are confusing your ideas. WP:Notability: "Notable means 'worthy of being noted' or 'attracting notice'. It is not synonymous with 'fame' or 'importance'." "As of September 2007, NYTimes.com had 13 million unique visitors per month." I’d say the mention in the NYT means that PCC has “attracted notice.” Also, I can not find in WP rules where “in universe” enters as a critique of an article. Can you please point me in the correct direction? And although I understand the term in a general sense, I don’t see how you intend to apply it or how your application of the idea responds to my critique above. I would be grateful for an explication.LCP 22:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article is much more than a passing mention. Yes, the 1.5 line paragraph is the only one with the name People Can Change, but the two paragraphs after that refer to it as "the weekend" for a total of three. It is more than a trivial mention, because the whole article is about similar programs. The article centers on Larsen's experience, and his time in People Can Change can hardly be called a trivial part. The audio portion has the same story line, but goes into much further depth about the weekend. I don't see how you can say it has trivial coverage in the audio portion, which is part of the article. I know we are discussing (we're not done) the other articles, but 2 people voted on this without seeing those other sources. Besides, we never reached a conclusion. Also, you didn't mention anything about KCRW. That was substantial coverage, much more than 3 paragraphs worth. What do you think of that? If you still don't believe that was substantial coverage, (which I still don't understand), consider this from WP:ORG "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability." So even if you turn three paragraphs into non-substantial, it really doesn't matter because simply having multiple independent sources have been used to establish notability. Joshuajohanson 22:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The NYT article is not about PCC, it's about the experiences of someone else. The PCC element is incidental and is mentioned in passing. The KCRW article, again, isn't an article per se, it's reference to the fact that Richard Wyler was present at an on-air debate. Once again it's not about PCC. Let's face it "gay curing" is a small pot to choose from so it's not surprising he got asked to appear. It demonstrates paucity of people from the "other side of the argument" rather than notability. All these references do is establish existence, not notability. Even secondary sources have to say something non-trivial. Nothing you have come up with has established notability. All they've done is establish existence and demonstrate that not very many people believe in curing gay guys of their "affliction" so there's going to be very few people to mention when the subject comes up. That's not notability, that's just lack of choice in a small market. ---- WebHamster 23:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The points you raise speak more loudly for inclusion than exclusion. Even though you attempt to devalue the mention of the PCC in the NYT, you can't get around the fact that the PCC has “attracted the notice” of the NYT. By definition, that means it meets WP:Notability requirements. Also, your statement, “lack of choice in a small market”, would make the mention of PCC in the NYT even more notable. It demonstrates that in “a small market”, PCC is apparently one of the relatively big players.LCP 23:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also want to note that the first objection to the inclusion of PCC was that there were no secondary sources referring to it. Now that it has a very notable secondary source that speaks of it at relative length, the argument has shifted in an attempt to discredit the secondary source.LCP 23:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no. They speak more towards a general article of curing homosexuality having a small paragraph about PCC. I'm the only single, straight, white guy, living on my block. That doesn't make me notable, it just makes me the only single, straight, white guy, living on my block. "Very notable secondary source"? "Relative length"? Now which one would that be? It's not about discrediting any sources, it's about discussing any sources cited actually achieving what it is they are meant to do. If all they achieve is confirmation of the group's existence then they are somewhat superfluous. The citations are there for all to read and interpret in their own way. My interpretation is that none of them demonstrate anything more than the fact that PCC is a very small goldfish in a very small bowl. ---- WebHamster 23:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You state, “citations are there for all to read and interpret in their own way”. This seems to imply that subjective interpretation is the best we can do. However, I don’t think we’re quite there. Here’s why:

Can you please address these issues? Also, I am not sure the analogy works. The problem is that yours is just one block among many others just like it in the city. What if your block were the only block in the city in which all of the residents had ex-ray vision--except you? You would then be very notable. Or more to the point, what if everyone in the city embraced homosexuality and you were the one person who rejected it and, because of this, you were given press in the NYT? I think that would make you quite notable.

I am afraid that if we apply your reasoning universally, we would have to delete many, many articles from Wikipedia, both those I mention above as well as articles such as the one on the Metropolitan Community Church--a group of negligible importance relative to even just Anglicanism. Relative to Christendom, it is just one very, very, very small pro-gay denomination in a Christendom in which 99% of all Christians (over 2 billion) belong to denominations that do not approbate homosexuality.LCP 00:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

♦ Citations and they way they are used is not subjective, but the contents and what they mean to the article in question most certainly are.
♦ Of course there's a difference between "merely existing" and "attracting notice". watch a bus go past, it exists, you forget about it. Watch a Ferrari go past, it attracts notice, 'you' imagine yourself driving it. (Sorry for the car analogy, I served my apprenticeship on Usenet!)
♦ I haven't said a word about "notability" and "attracting notice" because I didn't think I needed to. What makes you think that "exists" and "attracts notice" are the only 2 criteria available. Personally I'd put "noteworthy" in a class of its own above both of the others. Seeing an attractive young blonde girl in the street "attracts notice" and a double-take, seeing a very attractive blonde girl in the street has you running to get her phone number. Both "attracted notice" only one was "notable".
♦ The only time I used "in universe" was in relation to the NARTH website, and I would have thought my meaning was rather obvious.
♦ As for my block analogy, of course it works. You just don't want it to hence your widening of the picture. As for getting your article in the NYT then yes I would agree... the problem is the PCC organisation didn't get an article about themselves into the NYT, a single person did. Or did you fail to notice that the article wasn't actually about the PCC and only served to demonstrate that they existed and only got a mention because the main subject of the article went to them for help. Doesn't sound like the NYT found them particularly notable, if they had you would have thought there may have been a follow-up article all about their work. Strange how none has been written by them isn't it?
♦ And yes I would agree that there are several thousand articles in need of deleting, but that fact makes little difference to this discussion. --- WebHamster 00:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When you mentioned “in universe” I did mistake your meaning. I thought you intended to apply it more broadly--as several other editors attempt to do.
I quoted “attract notice” directly from WP:Notability. I did not say it was the only criteria. I did imply that it is a sufficient criteria. You have not demonstrated otherwise (or perhaps I failed to notice). WP:Notability does not say, “a feature needs to attract notice in the form of an article in a major publication devoted only to itself. Nor are we talking about an attractive woman on passing on the street. Or did you not notice? I am not saying that PCC should be included because a thought of it happened to flitter across someone’s consciousness. You might “personally” “put ‘noteworthy’ in a class of its own”, but we are not playing by WebHamster rules. We are playing by Wikipedia rules—which I have referenced and you have not. Or did you fail to notice?
Actually, I tried to accept your analogy before I found it wanting. So when you say, “You just don't want it to”, I don’t know what to say back but “Neener-neener-neener, did so want it to work. I’m tellin’ mom!”
WP:Notability doesn’t say how much attention the subject of a feature needs to attract or how notable it needs to be. However, being spoken of in an article in the NY Times, even though not the subject of an article, is arguably sufficiently notable. And then there is the article in the Desert News. Strange isn’t it, how the NY Times hasn’t written an article that mentions, even in passing, your feelings towards very pretty blond girls?LCP 01:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
♦ When you refer to playing by Wikipedia's rules I'm sure you really meant guidelines didn't you? I'm not expecting you, or anyone else, to do as I say or even believe what I believe. I'm merely stating my POV on this matter and trying to use analogies to better describe what it is I mean.
♦ As regards my analogy... well if your Mom, isn't a white, straight, male living on my block then she doesn't count in my analogy. You can tell her from me! The point you seem to have ignored isn't that it's part of a wider picture it's merely that being different and being the only one in a particular universe (regardless of how big that universe is) isn't notable in and of itself. It's what is done with the difference that makes it notable.
♦ WP:N does quantify what it means by using the terms "non-trivial" and "substantial", and to me that does not include passing references to item B whilst discussing item A, especially when only a few words are actually used. In the NYT article if Olsen had gone to someone else for help then they would have been mentioned instead of PCC ergo PCC's mention is just incidental. I've also asked myself the question on how that article was instigated in the first place. I wonder if a PR department somewhere had a little word...? Let's face it, the article itself does not actually assert any notability. It says what it is, and says what it stands for and that's it. I'm sure that it had something that really made it stand out they would be trumpeting it from the heavens, but no, not a trumpet's fart anywhere. I'm sorry but this furry rodent doesn't believe that a listing of what are effectively trade papers featuring articles on something else that's in that same trade is what was meant by the consensus that came up with WP:N. Likewise drive-by mentions in newspapers doesn't cut it either. I remain unconvinced. Having saiud that, I'm still open to discussion with any very nice blonde ladies who may stroll down AFD Street. :) ---- WebHamster 01:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we’ve pretty much teased out both sides ad nausiam. There is only one thing I want to add to clarify something about which I was not clear. The reason I said, “I am afraid that if we apply your reasoning universally, we would have to delete many, many articles from Wikipedia,” was to warrant my assertion that you are applying WP guidelines in a way that is not precedented. My point is that WP generally takes a less strict interpretation of notability than you have been proposing here. I was not trying to argue tu quoque. Having said that, I think I am done. I’ve put in my vote, and I’ll leave it to the admins (or to whomever makes the determination) to keep or delete the article. Thanks for a good argument. I enjoyed it. Especially the bit where I got to ask you why there was no article about you in the Times. I enjoyed your quip about my mom too.LCP 02:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am still on the KCRW thing. Did you listen to the debate, or just read the summary? PCC played a large portion in the debate. He goes into the history, the philosophy, the survey they did, who they've helped, as well as received criticism from Peterson Toscano about only having guys. It really goes in depth. Also the audio portion of the NY Times article was the most substantial part, and it contained a whole heck of a lot more on PCC than just what it is and what it stands for.Joshuajohanson 02:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Listening to the debate was irrelevant from a WP standpoint. After all, the larger the portion of the debate PCC took then the less independent the reference becomes. A debate is not what would be considered a reliable source as it's a discussion, it's not a venue for verified facts. Likewise with the NYT article. If Olsen is going on at length about PCC then it's not independent. He was a "patient" of theirs, now if it's the independent NYT staff going in-depth about PCC then that would be an independent narrative. So is it NYT or Olsen who waxes lyrical about PCC? Now I'm not saying this is the case merely pointing out the possibility, but what if Olsen was offered an incentive to go to the NYT with the story? This is why what he says can never be considered to be independent. ---- WebHamster 02:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is Warren Olney and Peterson Toscano talking about People Can Change make it less independent? I could see if Wyler went on about it, and Olney kept trying to get him back on subject, then that would be less reliable, but Wyler was invited specifically to talk about People Can Change, and he did, and so did everyone else on the broadcast. I'm not saying what Wyler said was a fact, but notable enough for him to get called in specifically to talk about it. Same with the NYT article, if Olsen didn't go to PCC, he wouldn't have gone to therapy either and it would have made for a very boring article and even more boring audio clip. Joshuajohanson 02:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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