The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oceana Rain Stuart[edit]

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GNG fail. I came across this article when it was much larger and contained much more puffery. I cut a significant amount of material, and along the way realised that this is essentially a puff-up job on a non-notable artist. Yes, you can find one or two profiles out there, but the vast majority of coverage is insignificant, as is most of what is claimed. Virtually all aspects were puffed up. The main editor of the page has persistently restored the the puffed-up version and removed notability tags and the like over a number of years.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Non-notable artist does not meet WP:ARTIST or WP:GNG. Two of the citations in the article are non-neutral, in that the "online gallery" www.lightspacetime.art list of "Top 25 artists" is of artists in their own online gallery (thus a financial COI). The other questionable citation is the one in Southwest Art - it's a special section where artists or their galleries can purchase space in the magazine for promotional purposes. The National Sculpture Awards citation is a press release listing many artists. Nom is accurate - the article is a promotional puff-piece. Netherzone (talk) 01:36, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:TOOSOON. She has (allegedly) an art work in a collection founded by Napoleon. That's it. Bearian (talk) 19:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I'm an inexperienced user, the author of Oceana Rain Stuart, and have COI. I've ceased from editing the page further, and have been trying to get feedback on the page. Though I admit the possibility of WP:TOOSOON, my humble assertion is that perhaps this artist's record of exhibitions qualifies her for notability. I am not interested in a "puff piece" as asserted above. My only goal is to make this an honest, legitimate article. This article is currently being judged entirely via its remaining content. Deletions performed immediately before coming to "article for deletion" removed better evidence of the artist's notability. I've included several citations below (in external link format for now) that might help substantiate notability in the absence of content in the article. "...vast majority is insignificant". Not sure if the reviewers here are familiar with the organizations represented here, but these are not "insignificant" exhibitions, but rather some of the most prestigious art orgs in the US. Many have WP articles themselves. Please disregard the Southwest Art and lightspacetime articles. Happy to have them removed. These are the important ones.
- To User:Bearian: perhaps this link helps resolve the questions of this artist's inclusion in the permanent collection in Catania (see [1])
- Special Honors (ARC, MEAM and Portrait Society of America are world-class art orgs)
  - Finalist, Sculpture Category, Art Renewal Center (ARC) 14th ARC Salon Competition [2], March 2019.
  - Non-Commissioned Portrait Finalist, Portrait Society of America 2018 Members Only Competition 2018 [3], Portrait Society of America, 2018.
  - Pre-Selected Work, Figurativas 2017, Museu Europeu d'Art Modern (MEAM) [4], Barcelona, Spain, September 2017. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pdtompkins (talk • contribs) 06:45, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Temporary Exhibitions: The artist has exhibited her work in numerous museums on a temporary basis, admitted by jury selection/invitation. These links were formerly included in the article (in WP citation format), but deleted in the prelude to tagging the article for deletion:
  - Jury-Selected Artist, Marietta/Cobb Museum of Art Metro Montage XIX Juried Exhibition (see [5] - NOTE: artist's name listed), Marietta, GA, July-September 2019.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, Wausau Museum of Contemporary Art International Biennial Portrait Competition 2019 (see [6] NOTE: artist's name listed), Wausau, WI, April-June 2019.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, California Art Club 108th Annual Gold Medal Exhibition (see [7]), former location of Pasadena Museum of California Art, March 2019.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, Salmagundi Art Club "Figuratively Speaking: An Exhibition of Portraiture & Figurative Art" (see [8]), New York, NY, February-March 2019.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, American Women Artists "Full Sun: American Women Artists Illuminate the Haggin Museum" (see [9] NOTE: artist's name and artwork listed), Haggin Museum, Stockton, CA, August-September, 2018.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, California Art Club 107th Annual Gold Medal Exhibition (see [10]), Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, Los Angeles, CA, June-July 2018.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, California Art Club "Art Between the Lines" Exhibition (see [11]), Peninsula Museum of Art, Burlingame, CA, April 2018.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, Catharine Lorillard Wolfe Art Club 121st Annual National Exhibition (see [12]), National Arts Club, New York, NY, January 2018.
  - Jury-Selected Artist, National Sculpture Society 84th Annual Exhibition (see [13] NOTE: artist's name listed), Brookgreen Gardens, Murrells Inlet, SC, October 2017.
- Also appears in media - these are better than the articles listed on the current page:
  - Featured in: Masters of Contemporary Fine Art, Volume 3, Pedro Boaventura (editor), Art Galaxie (publisher), ISBN-13: 9789895428908 (see [14])
  - Interview: On Art and Aesthetics (see [15]), March 17, 2018.
  - Interview: The Guide Artists (see [16]), February 2018.
  - Interview: L'Italo-Americano (see [17], January 9, 2018.

Pdtompkins (talk) 06:13, 11 July 2019 (UTC) — Pdtompkins (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I think you might have made a typo above when you said "most prestigious art orgs in the US"; it is plain that these are not very prestigious at all. That's the core of the notability problem (as well as the fact that these are mostly low-calibre member shows and open-call exhibitions). When you pack an article full of low-calibre sources, it looks puffed up. We deal all the time with notable artists, and they do not show generally at the California Arts Club. They show at major museums regularly, and in notable galleries. All in all, there are one or two items above that are passable, but it's not enough. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:24, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Theredproject: for his input on this. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:10, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I listed this at the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Oceana_Rain_Stuart. Bearian (talk) 01:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:ThatMontrealIP, I humbly disagree with your assertion that the organizations holding these exhibitions are not prestigious or well-known. There is a revival of figurative and representational art that is taking place via these organizations and others. As listed in my post above, this artist's work has been jury selected by these organizations. Some notes on each:

about the organizations where she exhibits; click to show
California Art Club: Highly respected and one of the most active arts organizations in California (founded in 1909), promoting representational art in all forms. Their juried exhibitions (in part by curators of the museums venues) are held at significant museums across the state (e.g. Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History). They select notable artists nationwide, and attract significant public viewership and known art patrons and collectors. Ms. Stuart is also a jury-elected member at CAC. National Arts Club: Founded in 1898 to "stimulate, foster, and promote public interest in the arts and to educate the American people in the fine arts". A survey of the former membership on WP indicates noteworthy artist representation. The 121st Catharine Lorillard Wolfe Art Club juried exhibition was held there as a benefit to the Metropolitan Museum, where a member of their Board of Trustees was co-master-of-ceremonies. Salmagundi Club: A fine arts center founded in 1871, and another active supporter of the fine arts, also with notable membership, per WP. MEAM is a highly prestigious museum in Barcelona, with a focus on contemporary figurative art. They hold an exhibition annually, Figurativas, that is highly competitive, with broad, notable international participation on the jury (e.g. Odd Nerdrum). They are also affiliated with the Spanish Artelibre Gallery, which also represents Ms. Stuart [18]. Art Renewal Center is an organization specializing in and promoting contemporary realism and the 21st century representational art movement. Their annual ARC Salon competition is "the largest and most prestigious competition in the world for realist artists painting, sculpting and drawing today". Finalists and winners are considered to be at the pinnacle of this artform. Their board reflects serious depth and credibility. Portrait Society of America: Founded in 1998. Formed as an "educational organization dedicated to furthering the traditions of fine art portraiture and figurative art through programs and publications." Jury selection, achieved over a broad list of reputable organizations (as this artist has done), is an indication of notability built on artistic merit. This process should tend to remove bias that might otherwise be present under a single exhibition or a single organization. Addressing the rationale for having at one point added numerous links to this article: in my WP inexperience, it wasn't clear how to substantiate notability in the face of assertions to the contrary. My response was to add content to counter those claims. If this was the wrong approach, I stand corrected. My aim was not "puffery", as asserted above. Bottom line, this forum is meant to determine whether this artist meets the WP notability criteria. I posit that the criteria listed in WP:ARTIST are excellent guides, but not 100% objective. My opinion is that the artist satisfies 4c ("The person's works have (c) won significant critical attention"), Her work is also in the permanent collection in the Museo Arte Contemporanea Sicilia in Catania, Sicily.

about the organizations where she exhibits; click to show

- California Art Club: Highly respected and one of the most active arts organizations in California (founded in 1909), promoting representational art in all forms. Their juried exhibitions (in part by curators of the museums venues) are held at significant museums across the state (e.g. Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History). They select notable artists nationwide, and attract significant public viewership and known art patrons and collectors. Ms. Stuart is also a jury-elected member at CAC.
- National Arts Club: Founded in 1898 to "stimulate, foster, and promote public interest in the arts and to educate the American people in the fine arts". A survey of the former membership on WP indicates noteworthy artist representation. The 121st Catharine Lorillard Wolfe Art Club juried exhibition was held there as a benefit to the Metropolitan Museum, where a member of their Board of Trustees was co-master-of-ceremonies.
- Salmagundi Club: A fine arts center founded in 1871, and another active supporter of the fine arts, also with notable membership, per WP.
- MEAM is a highly prestigious museum in Barcelona, with a focus on contemporary figurative art. They hold an exhibition annually, Figurativas, that is highly competitive, with broad, notable international participation on the jury (e.g. Odd Nerdrum). They are also affiliated with the Spanish Artelibre Gallery, which also represents Ms. Stuart [18].
- Art Renewal Center is an organization specializing in and promoting contemporary realism and the 21st century representational art movement. Their annual ARC Salon competition is "the largest and most prestigious competition in the world for realist artists painting, sculpting and drawing today". Finalists and winners are considered to be at the pinnacle of this artform. Their board reflects serious depth and credibility.
- Portrait Society of America: Founded in 1998. Formed as an "educational organization dedicated to furthering the traditions of fine art portraiture and figurative art through programs and publications."
Jury selection, achieved over a broad list of reputable organizations (as this artist has done), is an indication of notability built on artistic merit. This process should tend to remove bias that might otherwise be present under a single exhibition or a single organization.
Addressing the rationale for having at one point added numerous links to this article: in my WP inexperience, it wasn't clear how to substantiate notability in the face of assertions to the contrary. My response was to add content to counter those claims. If this was the wrong approach, I stand corrected. My aim was not "puffery", as asserted above.
Bottom line, this forum is meant to determine whether this artist meets the WP notability criteria. I posit that the criteria listed in WP:ARTIST are excellent guides, but not 100% objective. My opinion is that the artist satisfies 4c ("The person's works have (c) won significant critical attention"), Her work is also in the permanent collection in the Museo Arte Contemporanea Sicilia in Catania, Sicily.

What is the WP process for breaking this deadlock? If we don't get additional input by Sunday (7 days), how will this be resolved? According to WP policy, this is not a vote but seeks "rough consensus". If I am the sole proponent of keeping the article, is "rough consensus" achieved? Also, from WP, deletion should be considered an option of last resort ("If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page"), with improvement a preferred option ("When in doubt, don't delete"). I would appreciate guidance here on process, and am looking forward to coming to a resolution. Thank you kindly for your attention. Respectfully, Pdtompkins (talk) 04:04, 13 July 2019 (UTC)— Pdtompkins (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

We ask COI editors to refrain from being disruptive, which is what you are doing when you paste huge walls of text into discussions by well-intentioned neutral editors who do not have a conflict of interest. In the interests of keeping this a neutral discussion, I am going to collapse your walls of text above. If people want to read them, they can click "show".ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:23, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Press coverage from WSAW TV news of the Wausau competition [19]. Media discuss the level of competition involved. The artist's work is prominently featured (female bust).
Touristic coverage of Museo Arte Contemporanea Sicilia (MacS) [20]. Artist's work briefly featured at 1:48.

Pdtompkins (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pdtompkins: you ask "If I am the sole proponent of keeping the article, is "rough consensus" achieved?" The answer is "Yes". If all involved impartial editors have argued for deletion, then deletion wins. But if you can improve the article, by citing (in the article, not here) better independent evidence of notability, please go ahead and do that. Maproom (talk) 22:52, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.