The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page except signature updates.

The result was ~~delete, but I'll be pleased to userfy if someone needs it.~~ - Philippe | Talk 02:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC). I'm undeleting it. I screwed this one up. There was no consensus to delete. - Philippe | Talk 04:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Musical instruments from The Legend of Zelda series[edit]

This article establishes no notability through reliable sources, and is just a repetition of the gameplay and plot sections of the various Legend of Zelda games where Link uses a musical instrument. This topic warrants 2-3 sentences in the series article, but this article establishes no notability beyond that. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per reasons above. RC-0722 ^communicator/_kills 01:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete. Someone put a lot of time into this analyzing and describing the different instruments. I know nothing about the series but is the information useful to someone in the know? If references could be added and/or someone could make the case that this is useful information for people into this game, then I would keep. Renee (talk) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge if not already included with game articles, weak keep otherwise. This feels reasonable, since the page may provide additional insight not provided in the game articles. Unsourced information can eventually be backed up. <3 bunny 02:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. Pixelface (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, no sources and WP:NOT#GAMEGUIDE. Paddy Simcox (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - keep may be tad strong, but I think it is worthing considering keeping. Initially I couldn't see much point to keeping the article, but as per normal I looked around for any materials that might suggest it is a notable topic in preparation for a delete vote. I was surprised by Google Scholar - it seems the issue of the use of instruments as an in-game controller is of some interest in academia, and Zelda turns up as part of that. The article as it stands doesn't reflect this, though, so while I think a good article could be written (noting that I've only followed up a couple of the academic papers), I'm not sure that it will be. And it might use the existing article as a base, but it would need to be much more expansive. The current article would be fairly easy to reference, though. Anyway, the topic seems worthy of further consideration. - Bilby (talk) 04:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article would need multiple sources of that kind of stuff, so you'd have to show, by adding to the article that stuff to show that it exists, google searches don't establish notability in the way we need. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. But I found three academic papers discussing the use of musical instruments in Zelda. The issue wasn't ghits, which don't establish notability, but Google Scholar hits, which do. Or rather, they point to articles that will establish notability. I'll see if I can get the time to do something for the article, but really I'm just suggesting that - to my surprise - the topic is more notable than one might assume. - Bilby (talk) 04:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the project is supposed to be working on combining all these sub-articles into one "universe of The Legend of Zelda series" article, and the instruments are a big part of that series. However, few seem to be working on it now, or at all, anymore, so if this page could instead be moved to User:KrytenKoro/Musical instruments form The Legend of Zelda (series), that would be great.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Userfy per KrytenKoro. Gameguide-ish information with elements of original research. Not totally unsalvagable, but would require a major rewrite and refocus which is better done in userspace (since we already got an editor who volunteered). – sgeureka ^t•c 09:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Strike that per Bilby's work. If someone is not content with the current article now, a merge proposal is the way to go, not this AfD. – sgeureka ^t•c 13:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Information about the game, not a game guide. Not useful in playing the game--I dont immediately see how this would help in that. DGG (talk)

But what about the notability question? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was merchandise made (i.e. the ocarina) for the instruments, and it's a fairly integral part of a very notable game series. I think there is definitely some notability here. <3 bunny 23:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The amount of notability established thus far indicates it would make a few sentences in the main series article, but there needs to be a multiple or many sources, and that hasn't been shown yet. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've got some time, so I'm looking at whether the notability question can be addressed. At this point there's a particularly good little discussion in Play Along - An Approach to Videogame Music published in Game Studies 4(1), a mention of the use of musical puzzles in Zelda in Levels of Sound (Proceedings of the Digital Games Research Association), and about half a dozen others that I still need to wade through. - Bilby (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've added a new section and some references which should be sufficient to establish notability. There's clearly a lot more referencing to do, but most of it is easy stuff to find. - Bilby (talk) 03:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Judge's well-formed nom. Eusebeus (talk) 05:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect, as I already merged this into The Legend of Zelda (series). --Pixelface (talk) 04:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep, after Bilby's improvements. --Pixelface (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - It doesn't seem to fit at all on the Zelda page, and I don't think you should have merged it right in the middle of a deletion discussion. I think a better target would be the universe of article. If someone is willing to do a proper integration, not just a cut/paste, the universe article is being built at User:KrytenKoro/Universe_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I have de-merged the article, I don't think that the article is short enough to merge in to the main artilcle. The Zelda series article is way too long to merge something like this in to it. For now I'd be in favour of keeping but I agree it needs more cites. BigHairRef | Talk 06:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've added a few more citations (17 now), and I'll extend it further if it survives AfD. In regard to merging - I can see an argument for merging, but I agree that there is too much for The Legend of Zelda (series). However, I think that it would be a better choice for merger than Universe of The Legend of Zelda, as the focus shouldn't be on simply what the instruments are (a "universe of ..." topic) but also on the significance of instruments to the game and, in terms of notability, as a game mechanic. That aside, while I had never encountered this topic before the AfD (so thanks Judgesurreal777 for raising it), researching it means that I'm now happy that the instruments are a notable topic, rather than fan cruft (which was my initial reaction when I saw the AfD). Whether or not the article displays this (or others agree with me) is another issue. :) - Bilby (talk) 12:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Can all be adequately covered in their own articles. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment- I applaud your efforts, but I still think the references you have found would make a very good, large, and comprehensive paragraph addition to the Zelda series article, and also the universe article if and when that comes back. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Possibly so, which is why I don't object to the merge option, I just prefer keep: mostly because of the "large" part of your point. My feeling is that the instruments are notable in their own right, and that they would take a lot of space in the main Zelda article. Even better (and, from what I've read recently, even more notable) would be a "music of zelda" article - but for that I'd probably use the instruments as a base and move out, rather than starting from scratch and moving the instruments in. Still, if consensus is merge, I'm happy that the merge will be with properly sourced information. :) - Bilby (talk) 17:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is this article necessary, though? Shouldn't the musical instruments be mentioned in the logical articles? - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good question; at this point, perhaps it would be prudent to not delete, but focus on where to merge, as the question of notability has been, to at least a limited extent, established. Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Take all the content from this article, put the appropriate content in the appropriate article (ie, Harp of Ages to Oracle of Seasons and Ages), and delete. The likelihood that someone would visit this article through the Search is very, very low. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We can hash that out on the talk page, but can we agree that outright deletion is no longer necessary? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.