The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ultimately, after much talking, nobody advocates retention of this unsourced stub, which read in its entirety: "Mkiriwadjumoi is a monastery located near the town of Moya on the island of Anjouan in the Comoros." Sandstein 13:00, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mkiriwadjumoi[edit]

Mkiriwadjumoi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Though there are articles in Swedish and Cebuano, I didn't find any information beside weather data for this place Arthistorian1977 (talk) 15:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given there are tons of links on the web about it, I think it refers to a separate/autonomous community within the city where it is colocated.

I cannot assert this, but the name is commonly used. Could it that be a "local name" of the city, or a translation of the city name in some unspecified language?

If you prefer I suggest not deleting it but replacing it by a redirect to the city. But it's true that it has a separate geographic classification than a standard place and the encoding found in various databases indicates it is a religious place.

May be it's just a suburb in the city and the name is still accurate.

The "lack of reference" invoked is false, there are many on the web, but how to choose between them? They were indicated in the associated talk page, where this was questioned. And anyway we should also ask to Swedish and Cebuano Wikipedia users where they took their reference, as they had already created a reference for this in Wikidata. May be the external references cannot be found in English but in other languages.

Given the location, the local languages (Comorian, Arabic, French) should be used to search that name (which is most probably in Comorian/Mahorese, or one of its local variants, the Ndzwani (Anjouani) dialect). But I don't think it is a pure synonym (translated) of the city name and that it certainly has a religious meaning.

Note that Moya and Mkiriwadjumoi are clearly distinguished and separated in population census data by city (so these cannot be synonyms) !

And various published lists give these estimates (unfortunately without dates), sorted by decreasing population:

It's strange that a so important city (for the country) cannot be located separately from Moya, given its rank. I suspect that the effective geolocalisation may be in fact wrong or that people are confused by the local religious status (so there could as well be two communities recognized in the same territory, a civil one and a religion-affiliated one).

We should find locals in Anjouan to decipher this case, but we cannot decide anything here on this English-only Wikipedia alone.

And the list of sources you suggest at top of this page are definitely not accurate and not suitable at all for this area as they are purely in English and very focused to US readers). English is not used at all in Anjouan, Comoros.

If those on this English Wikipedia don't know anything about how to search sources in Arabic, Comorian or French, they should abstain to decide or vote anything as they ignore completely how to solve this case (the same applies to users on Swedish and Cebuano Wikipedia, but I think that Cebuano Wikipedia just copied/translated what was on Swedish Wikipedia with some bot). It would be interesting to look at the history of the article in Swedish Wikipedia and article in Cebuano Wikipedia to find the first occurence (it's possible that then many other sites on the web just started to create pages once both wikipedias were linked together via the addition of an entry Wikidata after it was translated to Cebuano). It's notable that both were created by the same import bot ("Lsjbot", developed by the Swedish physicist Sverker Johansson, and documented in Swedish, which got promoted for his work in WikiScience 2017) there in September-October 2016, but that the many external sites have existed since much longer time before in various weather/postal/population/tourism sites... (so Wikipedia is not the initial source of this name used since long).

verdy_p (talk) 16:44, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep It exists. Mkiriwadjumoi is a monastery which I can see on google maps. It is an important monastery with many people in it. It is located next to Moya, and it has a population of monks in it. The monks are not allowed out of their community so it is a separate community to the village next to it and is officially designated as its own community. I do not think your Lsjbot machine is very good because it seems to be confusing it with a normal city and can't seem to understand the concept of a monastic community. As verdy_p has already explained, being a different designated place to Moya, it is administered separately and has separate census data. I think this means it should be keep according to your policy that is called WP:GEOLAND. Ilyina Olya Yakovna (talk) 14:55, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as failing WP:V. Not a single reference provided either in the article or in this discussion, except a lot of hand-waving. The place is not findable on Google maps; all Google hits are nebulous geodatabase entries and their derivations. The coordinates in Swedish wiki (apparently a job of "nebuolus geodatabase entries") and in this article are in very center of the town of Moya, Comoros. If it's a "monastery", which denomination it is? According to Comoros#Religion, the population is 98% Muslim, and there aren't "monasteries" in Islam. A relatively comprehensive Government page about Anjouan fails to mention the purported town of 9000. It's an author's job to prove us with references that the place exists, and vague appeals do not constitute one. No such user (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I already explained you can see it on Google maps, it is the large building at 12°18′39.096″S 44°26′13.272″E / 12.31086000°S 44.43702000°E / -12.31086000; 44.43702000. Despite what your machine says, it is not a town, it is a religious community in a monastery. The general statistics indicate there are 14,000 Christians in the Comoros, that said, I don't think it is possible to fit 9000 people in that monastery and I can't see where the census data comes from. verdy_p could you please tell us how to access official census data, it would help greatly to make the article acceptable according to the WP:V policy. Ilyina Olya Yakovna (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ilyina Olya Yakovna: Well, I'm pretty good at googling, so I found out this video, which shows that this building is a mosque: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYDxGm0yx7U&t=15m30s And the coordinates were apparently copied over from Moya, Comoros. During my research I haven't found any human-written evidence that a place called Mkiriwadjumoi exists. It's nowhere to be found on this map, for example. Both the sv:Mkiriwadjumoi and ceb:Mkiriwadjumoi articles were created and maintained by bots. No such user (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

However, researching further, I found out a mosque named mkiri wa djoumwa in the village of Miringoni on the island of Moheli. I suppose this is the ultimate source of the puzzle. However, I don't think it's WP:N enough for an article. No such user (talk) 15:31, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair I still think there is a monastery there, however I agree with you that there are no valid reliable sources for it. My original research of seeing a building on the google map counts for nothing when looking at the policy that requires independent sources, so this article should really be deleted for not being acceptable according to the WP:V policy. I would say that this article being created at all is an example of a machine not doing the right thing and misleading people. All the evidence shows that Mkiriwadjumoi is just a building, that is not a populated place for the purposes of the WP:GEOLAND policy. I would almost certainly say it should be kept if shown official census data that says Mkiriwadjumoi is officially designated as a religious town though, because they do exist. Ilyina Olya Yakovna (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also it is highly likely that it is a mosque and not a monastery at all, but I don't know on that. Ilyina Olya Yakovna (talk) 15:55, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I dug out an interesting piece of evidence [1], quick translation from French:
Since every vilage has to have a mosque, Mahorans make a distinction between a "normal" mosque and the "Friday" one (mkiri ya djumwa). The latter, owned by the whole village that maintains it, has a role that a parochial church or a cathedral had in the Middle Ages in the West. Thus, we can expect to find many mkiri ya djumwas, i.e. Jama Masjids across the Comoros. No such user (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.