The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ . Aoidh (talk) 08:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Metropolitanate of Kyiv[edit]

Metropolitanate of Kyiv (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This article is now redundant. It has been superseded by the following articles:

• Metropolis of Kiev and all Rus' (988–1441)
• Metropolis of Kiev, Galicia and all Rus' (1441 - 1596) established in the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland following the division of the original metropolis.
• Metropolis of Moscow and all Russia established in the Tsardom of Moscow in 1448 following the division of the original metropolis.
• Metropolis of Kiev, Galicia and all Ruthenia (Ruthenian Uniate Church) (1595–1805) erected in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1595/96 following the Union of Brest.
• Metropolis of Kiev, Galicia and all Rus' (1620–1686) - metropolis of the Eastern Orthodox Church that was re-established in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth (1620–1686)
• Metropolis of Kiev (Patriarchate of Moscow) - this metropolis transferred from the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to the Patriarchate of Moscow (1686-present) Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Geography, and Ukraine. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:34, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep. The existence of a bunch of subordinate and related articles is not a rationale to delete their main-topic article, nor is the current quality or POV of the content.

  The lead concludes with a description of the significance of this subject: the proposal above doesn’t address it at all. How are readers supposed to even make sense of the list of subordinate subjects above without a main article? It’s as if this deletion proposal were the culmination of a scheme to make the entire subject more opaque and completely scattered.

  Does not serve the readers.  —Michael Z. 13:58, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Although this article might be repurposed as a parent for the various child articles stated, that is a content discussion and not a deletion reason. I am particularly concerned that the most obvious article that this one could be associated with is Metropolis of Kiev (Patriarchate of Moscow), created 22 March this year. Deleting this in favour of that would appear to be privileging a WP:POVFORK. If any article should be here for deletion, it should be that one. I note that this article exists on the most concise common name. No deletion policy reason pertains here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:57, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:01, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply The two articles cover very different time periods. The Metropolis of Kiev (Patriarchate of Moscow) goes 1685 to the present whereas the nominated article goes from 988 AD to the present. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:54, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Per Sirfurboy. The Eastern Orthodox ecclesiological situation in Ukraine is not an easy one for Wikipedia to effectively discuss encyclopedically and this article has some very significant deficiencies. However, it is a notable concept that warrants retention even if its in-depth coverage should be passed on to other articles. The POVFORK concern also seems legitimate. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply Out of politeness, i refrained from supplying other deletion criteria. But now that the above two contributions have let the genie out of the bottle, I can confirm (1) it uses poor quality English (unlike the daughter articles above); (2) most of the content is unsourced ((unlike the daughter articles above); (3) It is very pro-Ukrainian POV and seeks to right a WP:GreatWrong (unlike the daughter articles above); (4) I have already deleted some of the worst grammar and repetition from the article to make it more readable. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:51, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  None of these are policy reasons for deletion. A large amount of text was used to start Metropolis of Kiev (Patriarchate of Moscow) but no edsum shows where this came from (see WP:COPYWITHIN). Was that all your own work or did you copy any of it from existing articles? Deletion involves the deletion of the edit history of this page, so if any of the content was forked from here, the edit history would be lost. That is why the correct course of action would be to fix the issues on this page, rather than create a new page and seek the deletion of this one. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply 2 Why spend time fixing an inferior article? It's lack of sources alone would be grounds for deletion. I ask you to find a significant, sourced fact in this article that cannot be found in the appropriate daughter articles (that are based on jurisdiction / chronology). Laurel Lodged (talk)
• Note 1 The creator on this article (User talk:Jafaz) has been indefinitely blocked from editing on the topic of eastern Europe and Ukraine. So it's not just me that noticed POV-pushing. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as it's probably neccesary to have an overview article with the other articles as "main article on this topic" links. The current state of the article though shows how difficult it will be to maintain, with the first paragraph contradicting the second. Jahaza (talk) 20:18, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also the above list of articles is not comprehensive as it doesn't have an article for the current Orthodox Church of Ukraine metropolitanate or the one under the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. Jahaza (talk) 20:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Am I interpreting you correctly: I can totally skeletonize the nominated article just leaving a load of "{Main|Foo}" articles behind? Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:01, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep per criterion 3, no policy-based deletion rationale has been articulated. Jclemens (talk) 02:45, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as the topic is obviously notable. The current state of the article is not an acceptable deletion reason as it can be improved by normal editing processeses, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 06:22, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment If any article was to be retained as an overview article, it should be Metropolis of Kiev and all Rus', not this nominated article. It is quite succinct and uses lots of "{Main|Foo}" articles. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Interesting article, a useful overview of some related topics and has corresponding articles in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian luanguage. I see no reason to delete it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or Merge -- This provides an appropriate overview. "Metropolis" refers to a city, so that an article on a superior bishop (which is what this is about) should not be called metropolis. The title is Metropolitan, so that my preferred target would be Metropolitan of Kiev and all Rus'. WP has to treat every change in the boundaries or constitution of a state as constituting a new state, when it is better to treat it as a continuing state with changed boundaries or a new name. This should apply equally to positions such as this. Throughout the metropolitan cathedral (i.e. where the formal seat is) will have been in Kiev. At times his spiritual authority included Galicia; at others perhaps not. However it has been a single see throughout. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  My dictionary gives a third sense: “a metropolitan bishop’s see,” but has no entry for metropolitanate. This article’s subject is the metropolis, not the Metropolitan of Kyiv.

  I don’t know about that business of “new state,” much less applying it to something that’s not a state.  —Michael Z. 00:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply @Peterkingiron: Actually no. "City" is just one definition; the other sense — the one that is pertinent to this discussion — is explained in Metropolis (religious jurisdiction). "However it has been a single see throughout" - actually no. It has been divided between west Rus' and east Rus'. It has also been divided between different patriarchates — Constantinople and Moscow.Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:30, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The article was created in 2021 by a now banned user. It is not, as one might suppose, an article of long standing. The dab page does its job better. Leaving this article in place is just asking for a mess of contradictions. Srnec (talk) 01:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.